Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

As stated.

I guess this thread is the place for this — I got a press release from our local Sheriff's Office today saying they'd had many media queries about "anti-Jewish Rhetoric being distributed" being distributed in our county. (Apologies for the weird capitalized "rhetoric," our Sheriff's Office is only quasi-literate.) It just said that their major crimes and gang units were "looking into the matter," with no further detail.

I haven't seen examples of what this is referring to, and it struck me that it could be either our local Nazi/Proud Boy types out there distributing horrible leaflets, OR it could be student-led "Free Palestine" social media posts or something, and those things seem like they're increasingly being conflated.

Best piece I've read on literary culture at this time. Hard not to conclude the whole thing is a disgrace.

https://thebaffler.com/latest/at-the-threshold-of-humanity-kattan

Don't know much about this organization but this seems like one way to counteract those who try to stir hate:

The pro-Palestine protesters made it clear that the masked neo-Nazis were not welcome, chanting “Nazis Go Home,” and “show your faces, you fucking cowards,” the Daily Montanan reported.

That is just one of the tactics that organizers of pro-Palestine solidarity protests can use to make clear to neo-Nazis that they are not welcome in that movement, according to Ben Lorber, an extremism expert who is working on a book about antisemitism. “It is vital for Palestine liberation organizers and progressive activists to recognize and counter far-right actors who stand diametrically opposed to the movement’s principles and goals,” Lorber wrote in a recent guide for organizers.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7zx5a/neo-nazis-hijack-pro-palestine-protest-mike-enoch

Personally, I find it much better to see an effort to recognize and counteract this kind of thing, rather than dismissing or denying that it exists

that's encouraging

Black-Jewish Alliance ✊🏿✡
@BlackJewishA
Police are attempting to arrest Jews in prayer.

We shout “let us pray” for Palestine.

The police have confiscated copies of our speeches.

GET YOUR COP HANDS OFF OUR JEWISH COMRADES

Video of harassment within that tweet.

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2023/11/02/frick-museum-in-pittsburgh-postpones-islamic-art-exhibition-over-fears-it-would-appear-insensitive-or-traumatic-amid-gaza-war

“When war broke out in the Middle East, we were as heartbroken as everyone, and we realised that we were about to open an exhibition that a forgiving person would call insensitive, but for many people, especially in our community, would be traumatic.”

it's so insensitive and traumatic that muslims exist

this whole thing is so devastating.

This is where stuff like "It would be insensitive to publish this book about Soviet dissidents at this time" leads to.

yeah that is obviously ridiculous

An Israeli air strike on the Bureij refugee camp today

https://x.com/ramabdu/status/1720067423238308122

If you use this thread on anything going on in Gaza or Israel.

Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

The dissonance in reading about individuals expressing concerns about anti-Semitic violence rising in North America while 400 Arab children are dying every day in Gaza is, frankly, enraging

I have seen videos of anti-Semitic violence over the past week. These videos are exclusively Jewish peace protesters getting harassed by cops in North America, Orthodox Jewish peace protesters getting beaten by Israeli Police in Israel

My heart is ripped in two for my Jewish friends who are saying “not in my name” and being disowned, being called “self-hating Jews”, or— as the Times Of Jerusalem said in an op-ed two days ago: “anti-Zionists who claim to be Jewish are as Jewish as the Westboro Baptist Church that claimed to be Christian”

Jfc just because you’re saying “stop bombing Gaza” doesn’t make you “anti-Zionist”, to begin with

I was bothered by a now ex-friend who told me “how can you call it Gazan genocide when they (the Gazans) procreate so quickly”; fine, first I will block you and never speak to you again, second I will call it something else. What, tho? Israel already doesn’t acknowledge a nakba exists. Anti-war Jews are liberally calling it a holocaust, a shoah; those terms are not allowed to me as a non-Jew.

I feel like one can’t even call it “war” or “a conflict”; Gideon Levy argued that it is neither of these things, that it is a violent occupation, nothing more

Haaretz today reports Netanyahu’s latest speech: “nothing can stop us”.

Anyway, 9000 Gazans dead today, 3 hostages returned, congrats everyone

“anti-Zionists who claim to be Jewish are as Jewish as the Westboro Baptist Church that claimed to be Christian”

I mean ... fwiw, I do think a very not insignificant number of Christians are let's just say in Westboro's ballpark, if not on the same base

"I was bothered by a now ex-friend who told me “how can you call it Gazan genocide when they (the Gazans) procreate so quickly”"

So much hate.

(xp Not the point of the thread, I know, sorry)

"The dissonance in reading about individuals expressing concerns about anti-Semitic violence rising in North America while 400 Arab children are dying every day in Gaza is, frankly, enraging"

posters on this board are worried about their children being bullied at school for being Jewish

Sorry if my posts were emotional or “in the wrong thread” I shouldn’t post when I’m in a news consumption crying spiral, and I shouldn’t read pro-violence NYT articles (or the NYT at all), I am going to call a friend

I agree with everything else in your post, but you can be horrified by the massacre of innocents in Gaza (and the West Bank) while also being worried about anti-semitic violence

Tbh, the biggest “holy shit what are you guys doing” anti-Semitism concern over the past week has been seeing people on social media cheering on “Yemen declares war on Israel” when it’s the Houthis declaring war, not the Yemeni gvmt, and if anybody is cheering for Houthis then we have a big fucking problem

I have been seeing the odd report of AS attacks across Europe now, like this one.

A Moldovan couple arrested for allegedly spray-painting Stars of David on a Paris school last week reportedly told investigators they were acting on orders from an “individual in Russia.”https://t.co/VvJOmmoCAh

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) November 2, 2023

in the larger world, the anti-semitism is probably largely being driven by people who care less about the plight of the Palestinian people and care more about being anti-semitic, and seeing an opportunity for an opening to be a bit more free with their bigotry.

"zionist jews" now trending on twitter, that's that shit i don't like

Caitlyn Jenner's dead name is also trending there today, which says it all

sorry meant to post on the "is this anti-semitism?" thread

I thought this was pretty good:

You are criticizing Israel wrong. Here’s how to do it correctly. pic.twitter.com/DiwBTJOuiG

— Matt Lieb?? (@mattlieb) October 28, 2023

nice to finally see a video of Van Horn Street

in the larger world, the anti-semitism is probably largely being driven by people who care less about the plight of the Palestinian people and care more about being anti-semitic, and seeing an opportunity for an opening to be a bit more free with their bigotry.

― omar little, Thursday, November 2, 2023 12:29 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is upsetting me a lot right now. I know it sounds naïve but I was genuinely surprised at how fast people seized the opportunity to be flat out anti-Semitic. I grew up spending 1/2 the year in a mostly Jewish community in NY where I as a gentile was often the odd one out. 3 of my 5 lifelong close friends are Jewish. I said to one of them yesterday that I think I grew up in this little bubble were I didn't realize how much anti-semitism there still was out there and he was like yeah no shit you're from NY. Anyway - there are a million upsetting things (upsetting isn't anywhere near strong enough) happening right now but I have been thinking a lot about exactly this, OL. :/

it's not good. i have a friend who was indulging in some "deep thoughts" about judaism around the time kanye was on one about jewish people, and i had an instagram convo w/him re: a couple of his posts. i don't know that i reached him, but i tried. another friend (no longer a friend) started to get very alt-right and was an associate of ow3n b3njamin for awhile, a podcast comedian type guy who started to get into some anti-semitic and racist stuff a few years ago. that particular friend is long gone. he was at my wedding. he probably helped hold me up high in my chair during the hora. he just wound up being a particularly "bad actor" in life. and a pernicious influence on others.

i live in a bubble in Los Angeles obv, but shit does happen here. threats against synagogues, anti-semitic graffiti on a famous local deli last night, etc...

the Poetry Foundation shelved a 3500-word review of a poetry book that discusses the book's criticisms of Israel...the poet author of the book is, of course, Jewish, and so is the reviewer.

The donor pocketbook is where artistic freedom hits a wall

This is where stuff like "It would be insensitive to publish this book about Soviet dissidents at this time" leads to.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes)

yeah that is obviously ridiculous

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

Reflexive censorship of art always seems to crop up when wars begin and wartime propaganda cranks up the red hot rhetoric. Even as recently as the invasion of Ukraine there were ridiculous people calling for cancellation of symphonies by Russian composers as a sign of solidarity with Ukrainians.

O rly

If a HAMAS sympathizer or a HAMAS-adjacent amateur lone wolf carries out a gun attack in the USA killing more than 10 people in the name is Palestine … this poll will flip like a flapjack. https://t.co/NkWdyaliV7

— Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) November 2, 2023

and if my granny had wheels, she'd be a bicycle. I like the specificity of ten or more people, it shows a vigorous imagination.

Reflexive censorship of art always seems to crop up when wars begin and wartime propaganda cranks up the red hot rhetoric. Even as recently as the invasion of Ukraine there were ridiculous people calling for cancellation of symphonies by Russian composers as a sign of solidarity with Ukrainians.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, November 2, 2023 1:41 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
My kid’s teacher canceled their Russia unit. Like I really don’t think it matters to Ukrainian lives whether our kids are learning about faberge eggs and Baryshnikov

re: that poll.. I'm not really sure that Israel needs much military support anyway... they're a major arms manufacturer/exporter, inventors of the Uzi submachine gun. And they seemed to have no issues selling arms to South Africa's white minority government

and yet the House just approved 14.5 billion in aide to Israel for some reason

$4 billion for the Iron Dome, which kind of seems like locking the gate after the dog gets out.

Wake Forest professor resigns after backlash due to tweet

https://journalnow.com/news/local/wake-professor-resigns-following-backlash-of-social-media-post-on-israeli-hamas-war/article_4e1022a4-78ea-11ee-a828-ffa8e334019a.html

(She’s a really good poet, fwiw!)

14.5 billion in aide to Israel for some reason

er, mm, by long tradition all those billions can only be spent on armaments produced by US-based death merchants military-industrial complex manufacturers.

And lots of defence contracting

Protests are being planned for Armistice Day. Looks like the match will be lit on the tiniest pretence

"They died for your freedom, but don't you dare think about exercising it." https://t.co/xyCICKV35j

— James B (@piercepenniless) November 3, 2023

Clare Hymer
@ClareHymer
HAPPENING NOW: Another peaceful sit-in calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, this time at Kings Cross Station.

the only additional freedoms that came because of GB participation in the world wars was the bankrupting and partial destruction of an evil global empire and the resultant decline arguably sped up the process of decolonisation that followed. "Protect our freedoms" my fucking arsehole, it was a warfare state that forced conscripts onto the battlefield, which is the absolute opposite of freedom.

David Adler
@davidrkadler
New bill in the French 🇫🇷 Senate : 'An insult committed against the State of Israel is punishable by two years of imprisonment and a fine of 75,000 euros.'

I don't even want to paste in what Germany are doing, just utterly disgusting

Belgian transport workers saved the lives of thousands of Jews in the 1940s by unlocking the doors of trains headed for the extermination camps. Now, they're refusing to load weapons onto ships headed to Israel. This is a meaningful & timeless solidarity with humanity. pic.twitter.com/kvcUMcnJd7

— Amro Ali (@_amroali) November 3, 2023

I think zionism is defined outside of the initial Herzl era at this point. I think Zionism to Bibi and the current Israeli government exists in that lane (ie no two state solution, they want the Arabs gone and are committing genocide to accomplish it) but it's also used as a pejorative (by some) to mean anyone who thinks Israel "should" exist, whether that's the 1948 or the 1967 borders or whether that's with a two state solution or not. Someone can be born in Israel in 1998 and currently believe that Israel exists and should exist because they're third generation Israeli the same way an American be born in 1998 and think America exists and should exist because they're a 6th generation American. That person could be considered a Zionist but I don't think it's necessarily in a nationalistic way the same way the American wouldn't necessarily be considered an American Nationalist.

Syria, for example, still does not formally recognize Israel.

Sometimes I see people referring to "the Zionist entity" and I wonder if this terminology has to do with that, like the idea that if you do not mention Israel maybe there is still a chance it can be dismantled or will go away.

I think Syria has its own issues right now.

agreed

israel has also been illegally occupying the golan heights for decades and has now taken further syrian territory amidst the current chaos.

to the extent that liberal zionism which believes in a two-state solution still exists (it's been very marginal in israeli politics for a while now), it seems like a complete dead end. look at the state of meretz & labour (now the democrats), they're only willing to criticise the war & genocide on pragmatic terms - that it is ineffective at bringing back the hostages and not achieving anything, while being willing to endorse starvation as a tactic and criticising the right for not having taken stronger action against hamas and hezbollah earlier.

That person could be considered a Zionist but I don't think it's necessarily in a nationalistic way

if they would prefer israel to exist over there being peace and justice and aren't willing to confront the past then i would say it is. that isn't to say that a two-state solution is incompatible with peace and justice, but prioritising the existence of israel above all else is an easy enough place to draw the line.

That Dara Horn article repeats a ton of debunked or completely unsubstantiated claims, and then ascribes beliefs like this to protestors:

But there are nuances to sadistic barbarity against Jews, we are told, and sometimes gang-raping Jewish women is actually a movement for human rights.

I was meaning to respond to something yesterday, and didn't get around to actually posting what i was writing.

I don't think it's antisemitic or racist to say that the Palestinian people and the Israel people are both here to stay, that the existence of one should not be predicated on the elimination of the other. That is sort of my starting point in thinking.

That’s perfectly reasonable, it’s just that as of now, the thinking of everyone with power in Israel seems to be that the Palestinians are not here to stay, they can in fact be systematically removed from wherever they might be staying. I don’t like arguing over terminology, but Israel may not be killing every Palestinian in sight, but they are enacting a campaign of violence and displacement that basically states: there is no Palestinian community, no Palestinian land, schools, hospitals, journalism, art - it exists as long as we allow it and it is our right to destroy it as we please with zero consequences.

I just don’t see how you can look at this with any hope that Israel changes for the better. Netanyahu is more popular than he’s been in years. Haaretz is facing government sanctions for reporting on atrocities and suggesting Palestinians have rights, while the Times of Israel publishes blog posts about how Israel’s growing population needs “lebensraum.” Certainly there's an opposition movement in Israel, but how much of that movement cares about what is happening to Palestinians, rather than (understandable) concerns about Netanyahu's corruption and consolidation of power? What is the future of Israel that doesn't involve an ongoing campaign of brutality predicated on the idea that "they'd do it to us if they got the chance?"

I didn't grow up identifying as Zionist or anti-Zionist - my grandmother and great-grandmother escaped Germany in the 30s, but my family had no particular connection to Israel. I think I had the classic lazy view of ancient conflict, terrible things on both sides, etc for quite a while, and I obviously understood the feeling that it needed to exist. But at this point the last year just feels like an endpoint of sorts - I just have the feeling of, well, is this what the great dream of Israel was leading to? Maybe it's a failure of imagination, but I cannot see how a country with this mindset and this much power and protection changes itself.

The whole point of parallels is that they are just that, that they don’t match up 1:1 but are useful to point out recurring patterns of structural oppression.

Random ilxmailer is correct but not for the reason they think: the situation of the Palestinians is so much worse. This doesn’t mean that the point is not worth making, especially in the context of “why are Irish people generally sympathetic to Palestinians.”

I guess it could be certainly extremely bad that Irish people look at the military occupation of the British army in the six counties, the decades of the two tier system of rights, the repeated efforts to deny that we have a culture or history and see any parallels. What the fuck must we have been thinking? Certainly nobody could look at the annual festivities of the 12th and see Irish flags being burned, the deaths of Irish civilians being celebrated and widespread use of the phrase KAT (“kill all taigs”) and see any parallels for the widespread revulsion and disgust towards the Palestinians that literally anyone can see by, I don’t know, football hooligans having chants that celebrate Gaza being empty of children. I definitely didn’t know what the fuck I was talking about when I pointed out how Bloody Sunday was the coalescing event for a huge increase in IRA recruitment and that violence begets violence.

I don’t know what the fuck I’m even relying for anymore.

Great post JoeStork

Replying for. Ugh.

The powerful are indiscriminately killing and the powerless are at worst losing their physical lives, or at best losing everything sans life (arguably that value judgement should be reversed). Every analysis should remember this, every thought, idea, communication on this conflict should pass through the prism of that fact. I think your posts here don't do so Felicity, which is why you stir up so much frustration with everyone else here who does see this present blight on humanity through this context? It's hard to understand one another when this fundamental truth is disagreed upon...

I don't think it's antisemitic or racist to say that the Palestinian people and the Israel people are both here to stay, that the existence of one should not be predicated on the elimination of the other. That is sort of my starting point in thinking.

That’s perfectly reasonable, it’s just that as of now, the thinking of everyone with power in Israel seems to be that the Palestinians are not here to stay, they can in fact be systematically removed from wherever they might be staying. I don’t like arguing over terminology, but Israel may not be killing every Palestinian in sight, but they are enacting a campaign of violence and displacement that basically states: there is no Palestinian community, no Palestinian land, schools, hospitals, journalism, art - it exists as long as we allow it and it is our right to destroy it as we please with zero consequences.

I just don’t see how you can look at this with any hope that Israel changes for the better. Netanyahu is more popular than he’s been in years. Haaretz is facing government sanctions for reporting on atrocities and suggesting Palestinians have rights, while the Times of Israel publishes blog posts about how Israel’s growing population needs “lebensraum.” Certainly there's an opposition movement in Israel, but how much of that movement cares about what is happening to Palestinians, rather than (understandable) concerns about Netanyahu's corruption and consolidation of power? What is the future of Israel that doesn't involve an ongoing campaign of brutality predicated on the idea that "they'd do it to us if they got the chance?"

I didn't grow up identifying as Zionist or anti-Zionist - my grandmother and great-grandmother escaped Germany in the 30s, but my family had no particular connection to Israel. I think I had the classic lazy view of ancient conflict, terrible things on both sides, etc for quite a while, and I obviously understood the feeling that it needed to exist. But at this point the last year just feels like an endpoint of sorts - I just have the feeling of, well, is this what the great dream of Israel was leading to? Maybe it's a failure of imagination, but I cannot see how a country with this mindset and this much power and protection changes itself.

― JoeStork, Friday, December 13, 2024 11:56 PM bookmarkflaglink

Yes, it's a really good post JoeStork. Thanks for this.

The powerful are indiscriminately killing and the powerless are at worst losing their physical lives, or at best losing everything sans life (arguably that value judgement should be reversed). Every analysis should remember this, every thought, idea, communication on this conflict should pass through the prism of that fact. I think your posts here don't do so Felicity, which is why you stir up so much frustration with everyone else here who does see this present blight on humanity through this context? It's hard to understand one another when this fundamental truth is disagreed upon...

― H.P, Saturday, December 14, 2024 12:24 AM bookmarkflaglink

I agree with this and take your point. It was probably working out pretty well for a while to keep discussions centering around antisemitism (including after 10/7) to the antisemitism thread and other kinds of follow-on thoughts from other countries about the region itself in this thread.

I'll try my best to do that from now on, and please remind me if I forget.

The problem is when the facts and/or meanings of the parallels are contested, which has happened many times over … the person trying to point out how this equates to structural oppression ends up having to do more labor than initially intended. … and the discussion shifts to those other things

If everyone is fine with that … then it’s not a problem, I guess… but mookie (and others) seem to get super frustrated and angry when the discussion shifts away from the current atrocities

I'd be interested in continuing those discussions but it seems easy enough to start another thread for it.

I have enough of the people making this inane argument blocked that I didn’t see it but like

Just personally as both an Irish Jew and someone who feels deep solidarity with the people of Bosnia I’m immensely proud of our country’s ICJ intervention

— Tullamore Jew (@faoljew) December 15, 2024

Burlington, VT city council considering a ballot initative to become America's first "Apartheid Free City"

This is a movement started by the Quaker American Friends Service Committee

https://secure.afsc.org/a/apartheid-free-communities-donate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVpa_BB4ir0

mookie (and others) seem to get super frustrated and angry when the discussion shifts away from the current atrocities

indeed! how many more atrocities are necessary before this board stops 'shifting away' from them in the name of trying to just figure out what is going on?

Maybe it's a failure of imagination, but I cannot see how a country with this mindset and this much power and protection changes itself.

Appreciated your post, JoeStork; this sentence is particularly why I continue to march when there’s a march but have otherwise stopped posting here on this topic or attempting any manner of discussion. I do wake up crying every couple weeks, though!

My imagination has failed to see any immediate outcome here, but my intuition remains as it was a year ago: it will become increasingly seen as “humane” and “merciful” to allow the remaining population of Gaza to be evacuated within two years, and West Bank to be absorbed-via-settlement within five. The future of Israel’s existence lies within itself, and will emerge as a secular democracy (i.e. not an apartheid state) in 50 years or maybe 100, and it will take many centuries more for reparations to be made to Palestinian survivors for these atrocities and for the identity of “Israel” (if the state dares to retain its name after this entire shitshow) to be seen as anything other than a historical blight. Netanyahu will not rot in jail, as he deserves, but his legacy will be among other genocidal dictators; this “experiment” at a Western-bankrolled theo-/ethnocracy will be viewed as a failure. How many dead between now and then? My imagination fails me, thankfully

astonishing to me that as posters despair of their inability to keep palestinian people from being slaughtered we continue to platform the jesse singals of genocide

does what we say here actually matter? not really at all! but man, if they can make you give up on *this* that's pretty bad

Barely hours after I was tempbanned I see the rot set in this thread in no time at all.

So if you really want to get into why there are tough, mean Jews in the Middle East or why people from non-Jewish countries start setting synagogues on fire when they fight back, we can have that discussion.

― felicity, Wednesday, 11 December 2024 bookmarkflaglink

"Tough, mean" but why not strong, and why not pit the strong against the weak. I mean we can go down that road and to me its fascism enablement.

I believe the President Elect likes tough and mean too.

i think you are a bad person who is supporting genocide, and i wish you weren't!

― mookieproof, Saturday, 14 December 2024 bookmarkflaglink

I think we can wish things weren't this way, but we can only take in what we see...and reflect at what someone we know and has been here for a long time is writing and give some generalities and conclude that every turn the thinking is with Israel and its survival, no matter what the cost.

- "From the river to the sea" (a slogan I have chanted and will continue to do so) has been used to denigrate marches against what is happening.
- The worst of intentions have also been laid on takes regarding protests at universities, and boycotts of Israeli products and culture. "Israel must be stopped", but pushing back at any attempt to do so.
- The meaning of genocide has been relentlessly debated, while not even posting about atrocities carried out in the other Levant thread, with a seeming lack of awareness of what this lawyering makes you look like.
- Except when Hezbollah kills IDF soldiers, there is a need to pop up and humanize scum that post this content: https://thebaffler.com/latest/running-amok-turfah
- To go on about the Hostages being freed without actually reflecting at Israel's role in the negotiations.
- Donating to World Central Kitchen and being silent on what Israel has done to other humanitarian orgs (https://www.thenation.com/article/world/chef-mahmoud-almadhou-gaza-soup-kitchen/)
- Deploying "Black and white thinking" and "multiple truths in a war" whenever it suits, like aping a clever person simply 'asking questions' and 'seeking to understand' while the barbarians bomb.

I mean, take manners aside (I should know) and at one point you just think: how different is this from Van Horn Street, the one poster who was permanently banned over their posts on this issue?

Time for Multiple Truths:

And while there were statements earlier that ILX is in trouble if anyone starts supporting the Houthis, there is a poster who does support the Houthis, and I believe no other poster said anything (even though I pointed out that the Houthi flag says Death to America, a curse on the Jews).

I support the Houthis and their blockade. I've been clear that no action in the West (whether from the ICC or from protestors) has stopped the elimination of the Palestinians. So I will support any actions that can stop this. I support Hezbollah and Iranian proxies and their killing of Israel's soldiers and their rocket attacks on Israel. They gained a prolonged ceasefire from Israel in Lebanon, for now, and to me if force stops Israel then that's what I will support.

And that's needed because the tough, mean Israel is a fascistic, militarised society that are attempting to eliminate the Palestinians and remake the entire middle east. Realpolitik says Israel will exist but Assad's fall in Syria shows that regimes can fall and states are fragile (as Syria is being carved up right now). Like (one more analogy) Nazi Germany it needs to be defeated, its army dismantled, and for Israel there is a need for a reckoning made with the territory it has seized.

Black and White Thinking:

so I'll ask you in turn, mookieproof, what are you doing about war crimes and genocide? maybe I can learn something valuable from you.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Saturday, 14 December 2024 bookmarkflaglink

There isn't a lot, but there isn't nothing either.

We can boycott all Israeli products and not engage with its culture, support the few political representatives with a spine who speak up for Palestinians, keep up the marching, and in our conversations with others to not tolerate some of the things that have been up for discussion here. Obviously I can't stop it, just ask.

I guess I am as guilty of this as anyone, but the notion of debating the v basics of this stuff as Palestinians are eliminated, as Israelis potentially setlle in Gaza and Annex the West Bank in the next few years is not on.

I follow on Instagram some folks in the Iranian diaspora and they wrestle with the notion of not wanting to support the Iranian government's harsh rule at home and its recent years practice of sending of armed proxies to prop up Syria's dictatorship, and its push for Iranian government style fundamentalism elsewhere, with their unhappiness with Israel re Gaza and West Bank, and Golan, etc.

How does that manifest? Is there a feeling that the Iranian government has had a meaningful impact towards Israel? A change of government wouldn't necessarily mean a change of stance towards Israel, or do you get the impression that there is a feeling that it might?

New government might not be as interested in funding Hezbollah, Houtis, etc.

sorry Houthis

Thats leads to related questions about what the domestic appetite for continued funding of proxies would be (or what the diaspora thinks that appetite is), and also about whether the proxies are all effective or not, given fact they're comparatively expensive. Iran would potentially have a far better economy and more funds available under a different government,

- The meaning of genocide has been relentlessly debated, while not even posting about atrocities carried out in the other Levant thread, with a seeming lack of awareness of what this lawyering makes you look like.

I'm so tired of being smeared about the false accusation that I am "not even posting about atrocities carried out in the other Levant thread" I will post some of those here, even though you know how to use control-F and ILX search.

url=Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

url=Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

url=Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

url=Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

url=Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

I probably stopped centering Western takes after I listened to Alkatib here:

Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on|

As to what it "looks like," I am not the main character here.

My hope is that answering questions like plax's about the ICJ it looks like someone who is aware that her area of expertise is law (who is also bound to ethical strictures in her profession) clarifying questions for a person coming at this in good faith.

It's true I don't do the same when I feel that people are accusing me of not being in good faith or they are hypocritical.

Similar to what k3vin said once, I do have a sense of humor, and the irony of your former beefs with imago over him allegedly calling for your death repeatedly has not escaped me.

If you actually believed that Israel is in the middle of perpetrating a world historical crime that will bring shame to its project for centuries to come - as it is - you would probably not need to link to specific posts to prove it. So there’s something else going on besides awareness of search function. Don’t you think?

Yes I think there is. I don't think this is the thread to litigate my motive though.

Do you think it’s antisemitism?

That I, or table, or gyac, or mookieproof, or glumdalitch, have some - perhaps unconscious - bias against Jews which is tilting us against you, or against Israel’s actions?

I realise it’s a pointed question but you have been insinuating this for months - speaking of “dogwhistly white noise” - so it would be great to hear you just say it, so we can deal with it head on. If not, perhaps we could put that behind us?

Tracer, I was correcting a false statement of fact about my posting. I asked you similar and you never answered.

I agree with this and take your point. It was probably working out pretty well for a while to keep discussions centering around antisemitism (including after 10/7) to the antisemitism thread and other kinds of follow-on thoughts from other countries about the region itself in this thread.

I'll try my best to do that from now on, and please remind me if I forget.

― felicity, Saturday, December 14, 2024 1:09 AM bookmarkflaglink

Tracer I can continue this discussion with you offline or in the antisemitism thread. I think it's a distraction from the atrocities at this point.

sounds familiar

@hamid

Montefiore’s position is essentially the same as Jacobson’s. He’s spent his whole life idolising the state and paying lip service to the notion of two tragic fates intertwined on one land etc. The shrug of ‘what can you do, a Jewish state is necessary. How tragic for the Palestinians.’ And that was fine for him so long as he could continue to buy the notion of ‘purity of arms’.

The last 14 months has broken something in him. Because his own identity feels so intertwined - to him - to this state, he cannot believe his own eyes and ears when it comes to the myriad crimes Israel has perpetrated. When entire families are vaporised, it’s a tragic act to defend western civilisation. When children have their body parts blown off and are operated on, starving and without anaesthetic, it’s really just the fault of people hiding beneath them or among them. It’s still part of the greater good.

But he realises that a great number of people around him, even those who might typically share his shrugs about Palestinian loss, are calling all this evil. And intentional evil. The sign of a state ridden with fascism. The kind of fascism he would happily decry if it were Russian.

So what do you do, as a historian, when your identity and your eyes and your ears are challenged in this way? You look to see if there’s some historical explainer for Israel being perceived as fascist and genocidal - because it absolutely cannot be!

You then claim that it’s not because tens of thousands of Palestinian children are killed. It’s not because tens of thousands more women and men are killed. It’s not because of Mariupol-level erasure across an entire swathe of a country, that once contained 2.3 million souls. It’s not because of the eradication of journalists and teachers and doctors and paramedics and writers and professors. It’s not because of the messianic graffiti scrawled on the remnants of the hundreds of mosques or the thousands of homes. It’s not because of the recorded smiling confessions lingerie-wearing war criminals. It’s not because of the screams of ‘am yisrael chai’ as bullets are fired into homes.

It’s because the Irish have always been antisemites.

Seems he has some family history in Ireland.

Does he also contend that South Africans have always been antisemites?

Thats leads to related questions about what the domestic appetite for continued funding of proxies would be (or what the diaspora thinks that appetite is), and also about whether the proxies are all effective or not, given fact they're comparatively expensive. Iran would potentially have a far better economy and more funds available under a different government,

― anvil, Tuesday, 17 December 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Maybe Iran could've been Saudi.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c786wlxz4jgo

Facebook has severely restricted the ability of Palestinian news outlets to reach an audience during the Israel-Gaza war, according to BBC research.

In a comprehensive analysis of Facebook data, we found that newsrooms in the Palestinian territories - in Gaza and the West Bank - had suffered a steep drop in audience engagement since October 2023.

The BBC has also seen leaked documents showing that Instagram - another Meta-owned platform - increased its moderation of Palestinian user comments after October 2023.

...

BBC News Arabic compiled engagement data on the Facebook pages of 20 prominent Palestinian-based news organisations in the year leading up to the 7 October Hamas attacks on Israel, and in the year since.

Engagement is a key measure of how much impact a social media account is having and how many people are seeing its content. It includes such factors as the number of comments, reactions and shares.

During a period of war, audience engagement might be expected to rise. However, the data showed a 77% decline after the Hamas attacks on 7 October 2023.

Palestine TV has 5.8 million followers on Facebook. Journalists at the newsroom shared statistics with us showing a 60% drop in the number of people seeing their posts.

Ironic that the bbc is reporting this, implying they have been neutral

x-post

How does that manifest? Is there a feeling that the Iranian government has had a meaningful impact towards Israel? A change of government wouldn't necessarily mean a change of stance towards Israel, or do you get the impression that there is a feeling that it might?

― anvil

Most of the Iranian diaspora folks I follow just hate all authoritarian militant governments and groups (and they don't comment positively re Iran government vs Israel); there's one diaspora Iranian I follow on Instagram who is so motivated by her hatred of the Iranian authoritarian government that sometimes she goes easy on Israel. None of the Iranian diaspora people I follow speak up in support of Iran's government versus Israel's. Most of them just want a change of government in Iran to bring freedom for Iranians.

There's also sometimes discussion of many Iranian Jews leaving in the 1950s, and others around the time of the 1979 revolution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Iranian_Jews#:~:text=Exodus%20of%20Iranian%20Jews%20refers,Iran%20as%20a%20protected%20minority.

Iran recently executed one of its few remaining Jewish citizens.

https://www.voanews.com/a/new-details-emerge-in-iran-s-first-execution-of-jewish-minority-member-in-30-years/7854788.html

I am getting the sense other threads that this was insensitive for me to post. If so, I sincerely apologize.

Thanks curmudgeon that makes a lot more sense, I had interpreted your post as them being more conflicted ("at least they doing something so maybe they're not all bad"), but what you're clarifying is more what I would have assumed.

I feel like the proxies, most obviously Hezbollah, haven't really delivered all that much in regards to how much they cost, and presumably funding them is only going to get more expensive now Assad has quit.

🇷🇺 illegally annexes 🇮🇱 borders shift pic.twitter.com/twgEOed4lm

— Assal Rad (@AssalRad) December 18, 2024

This is 100% correct. Stop talking to them.

I really am opposed to those rituals that journalists do at the State Department. They know that no matter what Israel does, the US is going to support it using a variety of phrases that have become all too familiar. It would be better if they simply boycott those propaganda… https://t.co/fyiOVaec1G

— asad abukhalil أسعد أبو خليل (@asadabukhalil) December 19, 2024

agreed, it's essentially complicity at this point, even when the reporters make good points (i.e., state literal facts)

hey felicity thanks for your sincere apology

I support the Houthis and their blockade. I've been clear that no action in the West (whether from the ICC or from protestors) has stopped the elimination of the Palestinians. So I will support any actions that can stop this. I support Hezbollah and Iranian proxies and their killing of Israel's soldiers and their rocket attacks on Israel. They gained a prolonged ceasefire from Israel in Lebanon, for now, and to me if force stops Israel then that's what I will support.

What the reasoning behind your support for Houthis and Hezbollah but not for Hamas? I feel like Hezbollah haven't been particularly effective whereas arguments could be made for the other two

Effective at what? They drew a ceasefire from Israel, they have killed IDF and have caused settlers problems. Obv they have suffered losses too but I feel Lebanon would've been carved out by Israeli terrorism by now.

I am sympathetic to Hamas too, but I am talking about the various actions since Oct 7th.

Thats fair enough, was just curious on the exclusion. Since Oct 7th rather than including obviously!