taking sides: self pity vs. self loathing

I can relate to the awake at 6 am business too obviously.

(BTW, Kate, you have email)

(They're both very classic. Or are they both very dud? I don't know, I've never gone more than five minutes without either.)

I think I'll just try to create an air of quiet melancholy instead, put on Sigur Ros, and hide under the quilt. Hopefully then to sleep.

(no, I know, I'm sorry. irrelevant ramblings you didn't want to hear: I'm trying to pull an all-nighter to get back in phase with the rest of the UK and I'm already knackered. dud.)

sorry.

wish i had some excuse like having been clubbing for my sleeplessness, but not. didn't drink a drop. had a quiet evening in watching bad tv with ed suzy and nick. suzy fell asleep on the couch while i ignored M*A*S*H, then i went and read some syrupy novel that my mum sent me for xmas (the red tent... i guess she remembered how much i loved joseph as a kid, so this is kind of to the joseph story was the mists of avalon was to the arthur story...) but when i finished, lay down and sleep just wouldn't happen.

are self pity and self loathing the same thing? is self pity the unthinking non-mood-disorder-suffering condescending types refer to self loathing? or is there really a difference between "oh woe is me, feel sorry for me" and "oh woe is me, fucking kill me already"?

i've been accused of self pity my entire life, because no one can understand how someone so seemingly bright and intelligent, seemingly talented, reasonably attractive, etc. etc. can suffer from these blinding black moods over which i appear to utterly refuse to do anything about. self pity would be a nice explanation, if it didn't feel so much like freaking paralysis. i don't know.

gah, i know all these things, they're all symptoms of clinical depression. bleurgh. disruptions in sleep pattern, disappearance of sex drive, change in appetite, sluggishness, constant thoughts of suicide. last week my mother was telling me i should be on drugs... gah, she spent half my teenage years accusing me of being on drugs and telling me to get off.

no mom, i don't want to go on drugs, just get me a pepsi, will you?

ronan, i handled many all-nighters in my youth. it's one of those things that gets harder and harder with encroaching middle age. don't make me beat you with me walker.

The type of paralysis that grips me is nearly impossible to explain to others. I literally do nothing from day to day, and when I try to kick myself into gear everything actually gets worse. When I was going to school for a short time a few months ago, I became really truly close to suicide for the first time in a long time... So I ended up having to drop all my courses as I felt nearly ready to hospitalize myself...
I don't know how to shake myself out of this.

The time I knew I was depressed was when my depression ended, momentarily. In a typical hour I cannot but think of death many times; certain thoughts (can we call them existential fears?) are in loop. And then, suddenly, I can't concentrate on morbid thoughts even if I try--I'll purposely think of something awful, then immediately be distracted by something else. I spent a few weeks fluctuating wildly between these two extremes and that is the first time I gave any credence whatever to the idea that depression is a discrete phenomenon which can be addressed with drugs.

loss of inertia - I just mean that once I've stopped doing stuff, and this usually means the things that I *have* to do, not what I want to do, then I just grind to a halt, and it does feel a bit like paralysis, but really it's more like I'd be fine - once I was actually going. It's just so hard to get started, takes so much more effort. Sometimes a little push does the trick. That's in my case, and it makes me sad, but never, ever suicidal. Which is why I usually keep my mouth shut, because others obv. have problems far beyond routine spells of mild depression. This is probably just pms, even.

(Part two seems to be a chunk of the textbook summary of narcissism, which is great, I'd assumed that that was one personality disorder I couldn't have but then I found myself thinking that and reading a description of narcissism which sounded painfully familiar apart from some junk about insulting people to their face (I wouldn't dare) and obsessing over looking good (hahaha). Thanks, just what I needed. Mind you, I'm not even sure that personality disorders are that much more sophisticated and meaningful than "there are x types of people in the world" generalisations, but then I'm making excuses because I seem to have collected the full set.)

I know I'm going to regret this whole post later so really I should just take the hints that I'm only contributing drivel and go and do something else, but if I leave the computer I'll fall asleep. So I'll just apologise again and remind myself of problem #3176 with self-loathing: it doesn't actually piss people off any less if you apologise for your crapness every two minutes, it just makes them think, "well, if you know you're so shit and you can't make yourself less shit in any more useful way, why must you continue to be alive and allowing yourself to waste my time?"

(reads more recent kate post: oh my, I'm middle-aged now. I could do allnighters and make myself get up and be useful after 90 minutes' sleep and so on two years ago. did I overdo it then or am I officially old? really, if you can't sleep then we should swap, kate, I can't do anything except sleep any more)

but, as ever, I don't know what I'm talking about.

and the other way round I spent much of my teens thinking about suicide but that was a fairly different beast to whatever's grabbed me over the past few years. I think. I don't know, there's no cutoff point or anything.

so does it ever end? I don't mind not being shinily bouncily happy but I hate not getting anything done and never leaving the house except to go to part-time temp jobs (if I can force myself even to get out of bed) and sit and stare for three hours and feel bad about my complete inability to force myself to do any actual work and then come home again and sit and stare and do nothing, think nothing, manage absolutely nothing if I try to do something creative. tell me I might find something better than this at some point in the next half-century. please?

i have never suffered from self-loathing, but occasionaly i indulge in self-pity when things havent gone right.

I'm leaving this posted because I hope you will see it - also I will probably be out when you wake and want to talk to you about this later.

To prevent insomnia, try to expend a little bit more energy during waking hours, where there is a better balance of mental and physical energy. My foolproof method for falling asleep involves a very hard massage of the instep of the feet - for some reason I sail off to sleep about 60 seconds after doing this. A little lavender oil on the pillow will also help combined with a foot rub.

If the miso soup in the cupboard has no fish bits in it, have some - it's rich in B12, which is an alleviant of PMT symptoms and could also offer help with feelings of depression. Have some every day and see how much better you feel.

You've also missed out on sun for the past few days and you REALLY need light and fresh air.

I know you're going through a lot of change right now which is beyond your control, which adds to feelings of helplessness. Your rational mind should be telling you that feelings of helplessness are not the same as actually being helpless; things can and will improve.

Also bloody Merc in retrograde for Ariens right now - ASTROLOGY DISCLAIMER: this is the only astro-phenom I give any credence to outside broad personality groupings - and that's a factor for a week or two.

Above all, remember that you are living with people who respect you and care for you, and you should take some comfort in that until things pick up for you.

Self loathing, I hope never affects me, I kinda have a peculiar self-confidence (half is playful, half is determination, maybe it's just bloody mindedness), and I don't expect much from the world.

Anyhow, I hope that those on this thread who are having a hard time feel happier soon.

-I've actually booked a solo gig. Wow, this is scary, but I need to do it to prove something to myself. Need to prove that I can be musically self sufficient, that I'm not totally dependent on my bandmates.

-got promoted at Drowned In Sound. It might not seem like a big deal to most, yeah, it's only a non-paid webzine, etc, but it's still nice to be recognised that someone thinks my writing is worthy.

I probably am clinically depressed at the moment, I do realise that, but I'm one of those people that won't even go to hospital for a broken thumb. Thanks for kind words/support/needed bitchslaps, folks. Depression is really awful because it is caused by and causes terrible self absorbtion. To be pulled back into the world of other people is important.

(I'm always running out of time on here, but check your inbox from a letter from me tomorrow.)

glad to hear of your good news--a friend of mine is always saying you have to keep celebrating the little victories. they do happen, and sometimes recognizing that helps keep the overall picture from being too overwhelming.

As said, you'll be great.....and if you tell me when it is, I'll be glad to sit in the corner and come watch.

(That letter was half-done, but I'm not sure you'll even need it now.....)

self-loathing never goes away -- it's only dulled once in a while.

This whole thread is just too damn close for comfort for me. *shudders*

This is the self-pity part. The self-loathing part will come when I realise that I'm talking about this on an internet message board, rather than living a full and productive life.

Having said this, though, I can and do relate to approx. 90% of this thread. I have my own issues to work on and the above may seem another case of "the blind leading the blind" (or however that phrase goes), but I am trying my hardest and do wish you the best of luck in your attempts.

I'm addicted to both self-pity *and* self-loathing.

How to break addiction?

http://www.travel-prize.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/jose-cuervo-tequila1.jpg

please no i dont want to go to aa and become a crepey born again christian

simple, just don't go to aa

this thread title should be the ile board description

^^ carnt argue wiv dis

Self Pity tends to be a periodic temporary indulgence in most. It can be overlooked, at least for now. AA isn't necessary...yet

Self Loathing? Go to AA, become a Christian - no point putting it off

Uh, but I seem to indulge in self-pity constantly rather than periodically. Which feeds my self-loathing. And that starts off my self-pity...and that's a cycle of pure fun.

Unfortunately, as I hardly drink and only in social situations, I wouldn't even get a biscuit from the AA krew.

Do you have positive or negative feelings about others?

Have you been to counseling before?

I have positive feelings towards some people and negative feelings towards some other people.

Counseling is...something I've done before and usually denigrates in arguments between myself and the counselor by week four.

a lot of counsellors deserve to be argued with.

but it could be argued that I don't give them enough of a chance

self-pity feels better but hasn't the longevity of self-loathing

everybody's listening to the national

self-pity feels better but hasn't the longevity of self-loathing

oh no self-pity can be extended!!

these are basically opposite sentiments but the latter is constantly being misrecognized as the former.

i think this is why depressed people often feel so isolated.

its why its v important to be clear imo

I'm neither a psychologist nor a guru, but I know that from a certain point-of-view, both of these feelings derive from misapprehension of the ego.

otm

There is something addicting about looking for reasons to throw pity parties for oneself, and I'm not referring to the type that is done for attention seeking either. What's the deal with that? My does the brain want to swim around in the sensation of feeling sorry for yourself sometimes?

I vote for self-loathing because my self-loathing jokes are funnier than my self-pity jokes.

am i right to think self pity often applies when the problem is perceived to be "outside" (others, life, environment), while self loathing often applies when the problem seems to be coming from within?

I think so. That’s where the misrecognition comes in.

“I am vile. A stupid asshole.”

“You have so many great things in your life though! Cheer up.”

Self loathing can be indulged too, like self pity. It provides a sick kind of relief, I guess, but at a terrible cost.

Self-pity: "Of course this would happen to me. Nothing like this happens to my brother, but anytime *I* want to do something fun, something happens - the plumbing leaks, or Disney gets closed down. Everybody else gets to have fun and decompress - but when I want to do it, nooooo, of course not. I can't fucking ever catch a break, and whenever I try and vent, nobody wants to listen. But I listen to everybody else's problems! But of course, when *I* have one, everybody's silent. I am truly alone."

vs

Self-loathing: "I can't fucking believe I failed the test. Two weeks I spent studying for that, and of course, I stupidly thought "No, I don't need to spend extra time going over Chapter 11, I've got that down". And of course, I was wrong - I was ill-prepared for Chapter 11 and it sunk me. And all along people told me I needed to focus on that and I insisted, INSISTED that I had it down, and I was wrong because I am stubborn and never fucking listen to anybody. Every goddamn time someone gives me advice, I shit on it like there's a malevolent reason for it, and yet in this case IT WOULD HAVE HELPED ME!

I can't get out of my own goddamn way, no matter what. And even if I had passed the test, my inability to work with or cooperate with other people would sink me if I ever made this a career. I just don't know how to stop my worst tendencies - I see them but I still DO THEM."

difference of course is as Karl says, attributing the fault to outside, uncontrollable elements vs attributing to oneself.

both of them can be performative, of course - self-loathers can go compliment fishing, whereas a lot of self-pity folks often seek validation - "Wow, you're right, you keep getting fucked over".

I spent a lot of my 20s being a self-pity person, but self-loathing sunk in more in my mid to late 30s/40s.

There is something addicting about looking for reasons to throw pity parties for oneself, and I'm not referring to the type that is done for attention seeking either. What's the deal with that? My does the brain want to swim around in the sensation of feeling sorry for yourself sometimes?

― Evan, Monday, October 18, 2021 11:27 AM bookmarkflaglink

if your problems are not your fault, and are a product of the world conspiring against you, then you get to assume nothing needs to change with yourself and that it is the children rest of the world that is wrong.

I think most self-pitiers actively know this line of thinking is fantastical and not realistic while they're doing it, but it's easier to motivate yourself to demonize an outside foe than to motivate yourself to take a hard critical look at yourself. Or at least acknowledge "something bad happened to me, but bad things happen to other people too, and I am not being singled out"

ironing these things out just makes everything worse imo, best just crack open another beverage and thank your favorite network’s sponsors that you made it through another day

OK well then I was talking about the type of pity-party that is more heavily self-loathing focused. Uh, a Loathing LARP then?

Its not always adaptive to take a hard look at oneself. People prone to self loathing already do that way too much but are still told to take more responsibility for themselves. It’s just a category error here—these sentiments are very different

these are basically opposite sentiments but the latter is constantly being misrecognized as the former.

― treeship., Monday, October 18, 2021 3:09 AM (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I feel I am prone to both of these things and in my case they are somewhat intermingled