catch 22 c/d

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so i just finished reading catch 22 for the first time
my expectations had been fairly high,but i ended up quite disappointed
i mean i'm sure a lot of the concepts and the way they're expressed were fairly radical when the book came out,but it doesn't seem to have aged very well
it seems to be just the same smart arse jokes over and over,making valid but obvious points...
i mean,i thought it was quite good,quite enjoyed it,there were some really funny bits,but it was certainly nothing exceptional
and i love kurt vonnegut,so i would have thought i have a fairly high tolerance level for smart arse american writers...
anyone here one of those people who think its the best thing ever?
or can anyone point me to anything interesting that's been written about it?
i'm curious to hear other people's opinions,i was fairly underwhelmed,but i'm not quite sure why...

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 13:37 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree with your assessment of the novel. Strangely, I think the film has held up better.

If you love Vonnegut, try Pynchon or David Foster Wallace.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 14:14 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah i've been meaning to try both,its just a question of getting around to it...

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 14:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Heller's 'Something Happened' is much better than 'Catch 22' (nov or flick)

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 14:26 (twenty-three years ago)

I really liked Catch 22 when I read it when I was in junior high. I guess we just take for granted the "world is absurd" thing now. But some of the images are fantastic... Milo Minderbinder's cotton, the swimmers getting cut to pieces on the beach, "They're trying to kill me," etc. That's about all I remember though.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 14:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Catch 22 = stone cold classic. (as is SOmething Happened, Everything else by Heller suXor).

The book that got me into University.

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 15:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Definitely classic. If you had huge expectations it might be disappointing, but I had "oh no almost every book I've ever read in school has been awful" expectations (we read it in class) so I thought it was really good. The film was awfully confusing though, if I hadn't read the book I wouldn't have known what was going on at all.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 15:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Speaking of David Foster Wallace, has anyone managed to finish "Infinite Jest"? I got about half-way through before realising that there were better ways of spending my spare time than wading through this heavily annotated tale of privileged tennis students...

(And speaking of Heller, I 2nd the Something Happened rec's - any novel that has several pages of text between ()'s is an instant classic!)

― Minky Starshine (Minky Starshine), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 15:40 (twenty-three years ago)

I made it through Infinite Jest. you may commence pointing and laughing.

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 16:11 (twenty-three years ago)

The Broom of the System is more accessable and funnier IMO than Infinite Jest. I was two thirds through it before I 'got' Judith Prietht.

Brief Interviews with Hideous Men is hit or miss (mostly hit, though), and would be a good intro to DFW.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 16:35 (twenty-three years ago)

surely another would be "inspector mcelroy of the 23rd precinct, mr. wallace. i've always admired your writing"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

I got through Infinite Jest too. Now that I'm not in school I have more free time. Besides, I need to have some goals in life. But seriously, folks, I enjoyed it and didn't really feel like I had to work to get to the end. I've stopped reading plenty of books that I wasn't enjoying (anyone ever make it through any William Gaddis books?) But Infinite Jest was pretty enjoyable to me the whole way through, though it should be noted that I'm a dork.

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 17:12 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree with A & P, 'Something Happened' is probably my favourite book ever. '22 gets thrilling and moving towards the end, but some of it is a drag, as I remember. The film is quite different (shorter, of course), but possibly more consistently entertaining. But then, perhaps that's the point of a film.

I tried to read 'God Knows' and found it pretty awful.

― Ally C (Ally C), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 17:16 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Catch-22 and Something Happened are great. Not read Infinite Jest yet, but I enjoyed Broom so will get around to it. And I've read and loved all but one of Gaddis's.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Can't remember which Gaddis I read, but it consisted solely of either dialog or legal documents, and all the characters were completely unlikeable.

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Nick, that'd be JR. I thought it was pretty amazing how vivid the characters were just from dialog. But it got pretty confusing (of course).

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Please don't anyone say Broom of the System is good Wallace: accessible and funny yes, but only in the sense that a scatterbrained and poorly-considered sitcom is more accessible and funny than a good film. Infinite Jest was well worth it, so far as I'm concerned, particularly as a weird touchstone moment in the history of American writers dystopian obsessions with communication and an Entertainment Nation -- not to mention which it's really just fantastic writing in an omnibus stylee and has a Tolkeinish level of world-organization to linger afterward.

I don't think Catch-22 has dated so badly at all, in part because it's quite a bit sharper and more on-point than the usual absurd (those details again) and in part because it's not nearly as single-mindedly absurdist-comedy as it gets cast, I don't think: obviously the recurring Snowden thing is its big beating heart but I think a decent amount of the rest of it can be read profitably in a similar frame as much as a "smartass" one. (I.e. an early-Philip Roth kind of way.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:29 (twenty-three years ago)

classic.

― isadora (isadora), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Oops I forgot: way to approach Wallace without reading entire IJ = Girl with Curious Hair, so far as I'm concerned, particularly the last novella which replicates his more novelistic stride (and will be very funny to anyone who likes John Barth or has even been in any sort of collegiate writing workshop); that said I'm more and more convinced that his best use is as an essayist, and the stuff in A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again is largely brilliant (the Television and U.S. Fiction essay is massively great and the David Lynch article fabulous as well) -- I'm looking forward to the possibility of a second collected-essays installment picking up stuff like his English-usage article, his McCain profile from Rolling Stone, and whatever else he's been doing while I haven't been paying attention.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:33 (twenty-three years ago)

No, it wasn't JR. It was a different one. A shorter one.

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:38 (twenty-three years ago)

I started it a couple years ago, but couldn't finish it. It all seemed to reduce to "life is crazy."

(Aside: Are you all fast readers? Unfortunately, I think my reading speed is a little on the slow side--for someone who likes to read, anyway--and most of the time I'd rather spend that time on non-fiction.)

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:39 (twenty-three years ago)

I was about to say that it isn't JR, Nick: it was A Frolic Of His Own. JR is even funnier I think, but I read it after Frolic and had more idea what I was doing, I think.

I'm a fairly fast reader, I think, but I have known faster: probably 50-100 pages an hour depending on the style and how much there is on a page, sometimes more (150 for McBain say, more for Brautigan).

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 19:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Yup. That was it. I enjoyed the humor/satire but like I said, hated the characters and the structure was tiring. I'll probably get shit for this, but I agreed with Jonathon Franzen's article on Gaddis in the New Yorker a few months ago. Did anyone else read this?

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 20:24 (twenty-three years ago)

No Nick (sorry I was off the mark with my guess). I'd be curious to hear what he had to say.

Can I just give some big ups to the Hanging Garden by Coover. I read that 3 years ago and would put it right up there with Underworld and Gravity's Rainbow.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 20:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Crap. Did I just say Hanging Garden... I meant Public Burning... don't know where I got that one from.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 20:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't remember all of it specifically, but basically Franzen was writing about how he really liked The Recognitions but he thought that Gaddis became embittered by his lack of success and lost the humanity in his later books. Talked about he was forcing himself through JR because he liked The Recognitions so much but eventually gave up when he realized he wasn't enjoying himself at all. Then he went off on this whole thing about populist art vs. intellectual art or something. Mainly I identified with the forcing oneself through an "important" book before giving up due to lack of pleasure.

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 20:44 (twenty-three years ago)

I love Coover, but I can't say I liked The Public Burning* so much - I prefer his slimmer books, generally. Gloomy Gus, Universal Baseball Association, Spanking The Maid.

*Possibly more intellectual knowledge and visceral connection with American politics would help: see also some by an even bigger favourite, Steve Erickson, such as Leap Year.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 20:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Nick-- I definitely reached a certain "I'm forcing my way thru this" point, but then there'd be some line or exchange or dialog (well it's all dialog) that would really strike me as beautifully written. Yeah, as dense and difficult intellectual art (I remember a prof who was heavily into postmodern lit said that's one of the tenets, that it's dense and diffcult, without batting an eye), it's more theory than execution. Interesting.

Martin-- I just found myself giggling outloud to the Public Burning (I really wish there was an edit function on ILX sometimes... that sucked). I should read some of his other stuff. And I've been meaning to read Steve Erickson... okay, more reading less Joe Millionaire for me!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 20:51 (twenty-three years ago)

The worst part of Catch 22 is how it eclipsed Heller's sometimes far superior later novels -- Something Happened as a bleak masterpiece in particular and Good as Gold which has more laugh for your cash.

I totally disagree on Gaddis -- I found A Frolic.. a fun light read and powerer thru JR at a rapid clip but could never get into The Recognitions.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 22:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Catch-22 changed my life in seventh grade.
The movie is also excellent.

― Millar (Millar), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 22:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I find it classic. I read it when I was a kid, but it remains one of my favourite books of all time.

― Al_Ewing, Tuesday, 21 January 2003 23:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Ccatch 22 is like Bil Hicks. As in both make fairy obvious points, but they do it in an interesting and thought provoking way.

― ejad (daje), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 01:19 (twenty-three years ago)

hmmm...the whole snowden nearly had me in tears by the end of it,when the whole story is told,but i thought it was kind of out of place,almost as if the rest of the book didn't justify such an upsetting description or something,if that makes any sense...

― robin (robin), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 14:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Great read when I was in high school. Not too sure what I'd think of it now, but there are moments and anecdotes still in my squelching brain.

Have not read either Wallace or Franzen. There is a copy of Infinite Jest around here that I picked up remaindered, tho.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 14:16 (twenty-three years ago)

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