Magic: The Gathering C/D

but it also has value late game w/ its damage ability. can do damage in large increments. xp

My problem with the Selesnya one is that the abilities are a bit too redundant with other selesnya cards rather than complemenatary. The first ability is very expensive and only makes sense in emergency situations while the second is reasonably costed but doesn't end up getting used a whole lot.

I'm surprised at the lack of love for the izzet and azorius ones. I've definitely seen both izzet abilities and the azorius flying ability have a major impact.

6 mana to make a 3/3 is not expensive when a) it doesn't cost you a card and b) it allows you to make a free 3/3 for 4 mana from then on

don't think of the selesnya guildmage as a 2-drop like the other ones, think of it the same as, say, archon of the triumvirate, it's something you play mid-to-late game that turns your mana into an unbeatable board presence

by selesnya guildmage i mean vitu-ghazi guildmage of course, but the old selesnya guildmage was a similarly unbeatable card in the long game

I've just found that there are so many token generators and populate spells that the guildmage doesn't end up getting much play. Doesn't mean I'd pass on it if I'm in selesnya.

I'd switch Izzet and Azorius Guildmage but I otherwise agree with the rankings. The flying ability actually comes up a fair bit even in UW, and the detain can be invaluable if the game goes long. For whatever reason, my Izzet games don't usually go long enough for the abilities to come up, and they're both long-game abilities. Selesnya Guildmage is a bomb like an Archon, except you can randomly win on turn 4 if you happen to have a Centaur out.

the last magic online newsletter had a stats dump of the most successful first-picks in RTR draft by win % and vitu-ghazi guildmage was #1

actually it was by gross wins not % i think since pack rat was only #6 below some commons/uncommons. but still that means it's the best non-rare.

interestingly, collective blessing ranked above pack rat on the list

Yeah I dunno how you're down on Vitu-Ghazi guildmage. It's even crazier if you get a Grove of the Guardian or a Slime Molding. It's not like Rakdos where it's really relevant as a 2-drop but the thing just takes over the game on turn 6. All the guildmages are great. Also I disagree that Kurozda (the Golgari one) doesn't really fit into the B/G strategy - first ability pushes through damage, second allows you to sac your walls or pumped dudes, works with Scavenge, and is insane with Chorus of Might. Maybe not as much of a guild fit as the other four but if I'm G/B I'm hardly ever passing one of these.

I had similar thoughts to Lamp about Shadowmoor, which was a very fluid set, and one I didn't like drafting. IIRC a lot of people defaulted to one-color decks because it was easy and consistent, myself included (also there was a cycle that rewarded it). Playing two colors was a head trip because you could play about 50% of the set (!) but had to carefully balance power vs. having a decent manabase. Haven't felt that way about RtR though, something about it is easier to get my head around.

I liked Shadowmoor because the one-color decks really didn't feel like one-color, but I agree it was really confusing. Going just red gives you R/G and R/B cards, while going red/black adds B/U cards into the mix, some of which were really hard to cast since they'd be all black mana. I agree it was a wonky set to draft but I think it was generally fun.

shadowmoor is one of the few sets i haven't ever drafted, the others being lorwyn, coldsnap, and most of the old core sets

i did a sealed of SHM/EVE once though and my main impression was that it was way imbalanced towards red

the last magic online newsletter had a stats dump of the most successful first-picks in RTR draft by win % and vitu-ghazi guildmage was #1

could you post the rest of this? v interesting

its only top 10, and doesn't reweight to account for rarity so i don't know how useful it is but:

Top Ten Return to Ravnica First Picks
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Stab Wound
Call of the Conclave
Collective Blessing
Annihilating Fire
Pack Rat
Auger Spree
Mizzium Mortars
Skymark Roc
Desecration Demon

I wonder why Pack Rat is only the second most powerful rare on the list? Is it because a lot of newer players dont grasp its power and pass it? (whereas "all your creatures get a lot bigger" is easy to grasp for everybody)

Also, Annihilating Fire > Auger Spree is strange. Fire is removal and therefore good but Spree kills so many more things in this format.

i suspect it's just because forcing selesnya from pick 1 leads to better decks than forcing black from pick 1, and collective blessing isn't that much worse than the rat

They're both auto "you win" cards 90% of the time but Blessing takes six mana which you may not hit, I guess. (ditto on the Morters, another card you can't help but get destroyed by)

Likewise I guess Fire > Spree kind of suggests Rakdos is not winning so much anymore?

i dunno, i much prefer spree

this data's from about 3 weeks ago, keep in mind. limited trends do change much like constructed ones

I don't think it suggests rakdos isn't winning as much as 'it's easy to be an also-run rakdos / rakdos-splash deck'

also some of that is gonna be 'cards popular w/ good players as much as cards that, themselves, added wins'

I guess 'cards included in winning decks' is a better metric for that reason?

I don't think it suggests rakdos isn't winning as much as 'it's easy to be an also-run rakdos / rakdos-splash deck'

The idea is that decks that take Fire can also be Izzet which wins more than Rakdos? I dunno. Spree is much better.

it's better - and I don't think izzet wins more? - but you're locking yourself in w/ a guild w/ your first pick. (alt. throwing it away)

i'm not sure i understand what you're saying here

a strong rakdos deck would be marginally better off w/ spree, but picking spree first only has a certain correlation w/ ending up w/ a strong rakdos deck, has a decent chance it will be a wasted pick if you go w/ anything else

like I'd bet the % of winning decks w/ a spree in it is higher than the % of winning decks w/ a fire in it, but that doesn't necessarily make it a better p1p1

I'd argue that it is, because you can't really play the Fire in every red deck either. Neither blue based three-color (Izzet/Azorius) nor green based (Rakdos/Golgari) are really able to get RR consistantly enough; I've sadly had to cut Fire from both those decks. Fire goes in Izzet of course but for Rakdos and the Rakdos/Izzet decks you want the Spree. Unless people just don't play 3 colors as much as I do?

I would imagine that as a whole winning decks are slightly more likely to be two color than they are to be three color

Agreed but I wonder what % of people play 2 color as opposed to 3? And how many take Fires/Sprees wind up in sideboards?

Anyway, I wish we could get the top 20 instead of 10. I wonder how all the rares (not mythics) rank. I'd put 'em like this:

1. Pack Rat
2. Mizzium Morters
3. Collective Blessing
4. Archon of the Triumvirate
5. Desecration Demon
6. Deadbridge Goliath
7. Chaos Imps
8. Righteous Authority
9. Supreme Verdict
10. Loxodon Smiter

With special mentions to Deathrite Shaman (which just gives you so many advantages over the course of a game) and Grove of the Guardian (awesome by itself, really sick with populate)

demon would be #2 for me. and I'd always rather have supreme verdict than righteous authority if I were azorius.

The problem with the Demon is that it has to stick for a few turns before it's a huge advantage, while Morters/Blessing basically win you the game right then and there.

I was thinking about Verdict and Authority but in the end I'm really really fond of Righteous Authority, only one real playable answer at common (the Appiration) and it gives you such a huge advantage if you can keep the creature in play for even two turns. Obviously Wraths are good but I've had way more games where I played Verdict and lost vs. one of these puppies.

if it's sticking around for a few turns, they're losing a card a turn!

Or taking 6 damage? Thats what I'm saying though; the best Limited cards are one that turn neutral or losing situations into winnings ones, which Morters and Blessing do. The Demon doesn't help so much in a losing position because it allows your opponent to control it in a way.

I agree, it isn't always the blow out you want it to be

you forgot cyclonic rift on your list, i think that one's 2nd between pack rat and mortars

oh yeah, totally slipped my mind

though I don't think it's quite as good as Morters, how many 5-toughness guys get played in Limited?

-instant speed
-splashable
-hits keyrunes and arrests and such

i think these make it a bit better than mortars

mercurial chemister is another one i'd put in my top 10

Overloaded, the Morters is still one less, plus if your board position really sucks the Rift can really just be a glorified Blustersquall; usually by that time your opponent can recast everything in two turns. What really gives the edge to Morters (IMO) is that it's an incredible removal spell on its own. If you're just trying to push through early damage it's like a cheaper Auger Spree which is already a top 20 card in the format. Rift is also good by itself but sometimes you really need that emergency removal (like against an early Hellhole Flailer that you don't have an answer for)

ok sure i'm down with that but it's definitely top 5 still

I can agree with that, and i think you're right that Chemister probably belongs on there too, it's similar to Righteous Authority but a little better. Though there are a number of ways to take care of it, you pretty much get one turn to do so otherwise it's going to result in a ridiculous card disadvantage. Anyway I'll leave it like this:

1. Pack Rat
2. Mizzium Morters
3. Collective Blessing
4. Cyclonic Rift
5. Archon of the Triumvirate
6. Desecration Demon
7. Deadbridge Goliath
8. Mercurial Chemister
9. Chaos Imps
10. Righteous Authority

Any uncommons you think are better than any of these? I don't think Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage or Call are better than any of these but it's close.
As far as mythics go I have no idea how to judge something like Veraska (which really just plays like a Lux Cannon w/ 5 counters, though it's vulnerable right away if you blow up something, otherwise it's kinda slow). Angel of Serenity is just a big game ending bomb. Necropolis Regent wins quick too. And both Trostani and Armada Wurm are dumb as hell. Seriously, playing against Trostani is the worst.

i think trostani, niv mizzet, armada wurm, and angel of serenity are all better than archon of the triumvirate if we're using this list for reference. probably both planeswalkers too, though i've beaten them both several times just by curving out decently.

here's all the cards i haven't played yet in RTR limited. i got this list down to single digits for innistrad, not sure i'll get there with this set but it's fun to try for some of these when the draft is going awful already

Rest in Peace (maybe sideboard vs a really linear golgari deck?)
Sphere of Safety (this is for some sort of niche prison control deck i guess)
Trained Caracal (passable with scavenge or ethereal armor, just haven't had to yet)

Chronic Flooding (this is definitely a shitty niche deck and i want to do it at least once)
Psychic Spiral (wincon for the flooding deck)
Search the City (probably not even worth it in a deck with a bunch of multiples, won't try too hard to hit this one)

Destroy the Evidence (i dunno, it doesn't mill or LD quite efficiently enough)
Drainpipe Vermin (definitely see myself stooping to this at some point)
Shrieking Affliction (these effects are rarely good but might be fun to try once)

Guild Feud (the deck that wants this probably can't win without it sadly)
Pyroconvergence (not the worst build-around, just haven't had the opportunity yet)
Racecourse Fury (my vote for most useless card in the set, don't expect to ever hit this one without intentional sabotage which is not what this exercise is about)
Survey the Wreckage (could sideboard vs underworld connections)
Utvara Hellkite (had this in a sealed pool once but that pool also had 2 Chaos Imps so it wasn't necessary. seems fine as a finisher in the ramp deck)
Vandalblast (i'm not this afraid of keyrunes. maybe there'll be a better target for it in full block)

Oak Street Innkeeper (if i play this it'll be because i forgot to draft enough creatures, not because its ability is relevant)
Urban Burgeoning (would take a ton of cheap instants and activated abilities before this actually worked as a ramp spell and not a blank)
Worldspine Wurm (will gladly try this in the ramp deck if i ever get the opportunity)

Epic Experiment (i'm sure someone's done this properly by now but it wasn't me)
Havoc Festival (have heard that this actually works in limited but haven't seen it in action yet)
Heroes' Reunion (i've sideboarded in angel's grace before so maybe)
Isperia, Supreme Judge (obviously a good card, just haven't had it yet)
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (same)
Lotleth Troll (same)
Rakdos Ringleader (this isn't even bad in a 'wouldn't it be amusing if i actually played it' way, it's just a really inefficiently costed creature)
Righteous Authority (haven't had it yet, seems great though)
Search Warrant (super awkward in that lifegain and peek effects are good against different types of decks, and neither is playable regardless)
Slaughter Games (not even interested in this vs pack rat unless they have more than 1)

Blistercoil Weird (the guy who won last weekend's MTGO PTQ had this in his top8 deck but i can't imagine it being very good)
Growing Ranks (fine card, haven't had it with enough token generators yet)
Judge's Familiar (goes in the same deck as Trained Caracal i think)
Nivmagus Elemental (i like all-in strategies more than most people but i still think this doesn't do it well enough in limited)

Codex Shredder (seems custom designed for the chronic flooding deck, mills you then gets your spiral back when you mill it)
Pithing Needle (marginal sideboard card vs planeswalkers or pack rat)
Street Sweeper (4/6 for 6 is okay, just haven't needed it bad enough yet)
Tablet of the Guilds (yeah i dunno, there's no chalice of life pipedream wincon for lifegain cards in this set yet)

If you pull a Lotleth Troll, Urban burgeoning becomes a nice way to always have regeneration available on your opponent's turn

that doesn't really work because if they have instant speed removal then you can never actually tap that land anyway or they kill it before it untaps again

haha maybe the reason im bad @ rtr is that ive played w/at least half of those...

there are a # of cards that work 'best' in gimmick decks i think you noted the doorkeeper/flooding deck but i had some success w/havoc festival in my hand destruction/shrieking affliction deck. this deck also wants drainpipe vermin and ringleader as much as any deck 'wants' those two. this was actually the most successful of the gimmick decks i tried but its almost never supported by the card pool

i tried a nivmagus deck once and managed to get to the finals of an 8-4. i also played it and blistercoil weird and the familiar in a deck w/two civic sabers and a bunch of other cheap hybrid creatures which i think might have been good if i had built it a little better and played a little tighter w/it. i think i ended 2-2 @ an fnm with that one

ive had burgeoning, sphere and caracal in ethereal armor decks, the sphere was obv p bad. i think i thought it was soul tithe when i was building. still went 3-0 w/that partic deck tho which is p lol since i have generally done p bad w/ethereal armor

strangely isperia, jarad and worldspine wurm are the three mythics ive never opened. also for general interest i have never drafted or opened a carnival hellsteed or an underworld connections on mtgo

awesome, i'm glad someone else out there is with me on the 'must try everything' plan for limited formats

you guys are crazy

while i'm at it, here's my 5 most-owned cards for the 3 limited formats i've played a lot on MTGO, they really betray my preferences a bit:

RTR
Voidwielder
Pursuit of Flight
Chemister's Trick
Sunspire Griffin
Viashino Racketeer

M13
Watercourser
Disentomb
Sign in Blood
Essence Scatter
Crippling Blight

ISD
Grave Bramble
Armored Skaab
Victim of Night
Rotting Fensnake
Mulch
Silent Departure (tied for 5th)

i def managed to draft/open every common and uncommon in M13 and avacyn although i doubt i actually cast all of them. M13 might have been close the only card i can think of offhand that i def didnt play was craterize. oh and serpent's gift. i have never played a serpent's gift.

the burgeoning goes with underworld connections I'd say

whoa awesome i didn't even think of that. doubt it'd be worth it with just that though.

presumably the land enchantment theme will continue through the block so there might be more relevant things to do with it later