Firm allows staff unlimited paid leave

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When someone sent me this story just now, I assumed it was from The Onion or something similar. But apparently not.

So, unlimited paid leave provided you complete your work? Classic or dud? Will it actually work? Will it catch on? Are they just naive as fuck?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Standard 25 days holiday? WTF?!?!?!

Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

it's a british firm, bryan

Alan (Alan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Is 25 days a lot? How many days off do Americans get?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Hooray! An employer who realises that selling yr labour != selling yr time - hope it catches on!

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I understood that, but I didn't realize that was the minimum holiday time in Britain. We get 10 days in Canada which increases 5 days after 5 years worked for a firm. Union workplaces offer more time, but no one has to. Crap! This is a good idea, though. For our hourly employees we (I'm a salaried employee, not an owner) offer 6 extra days that can be used for anything except holidays (sick days, personal days, etc.). Sounds like a bit of a scam, though, since they'll probably just accuse people of not having their work done and disallow the days off.

Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually even if it did catch on most ppl would still get shafted as quota-based jobs would just increase to fill the time provided, and people who couldnt fill the quotas (which wd no doubt be set to the fastest workers) would find themselves forced to work much longer. (This alreadt happens in lots of low wage industries too).

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Rather than being able to take off when I want, I'd rather have a shorter work day. I know I'd be a lot more productive. The problem with where I work and for a lot of other people is that the work day corresponds with business hours. I've been considering moving to the UK to work for a while (I'm an accountant) as I had many discussions about it with a professor who told me that Canadian accountants were generally well regarded there. There's something crazy about pensions in the UK as well, isn't there?

Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, they are all fucked up.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Explain please.

Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Well I don't know what the situation in Canada is (it may be as bad).

Regarding state pension, it's pretty tiny and will be pretty irrelevant if it exists at all by the time we retire.

Company pensions have generally been seen as the best option for those who can get one, but recent stock market slump has hastened the demise of 'final salary schemes', where one receives a set proportion of one's final salary upon retirement. Firms are closing these to new entrants, and offering only money purchase pension schemes. With these, one ends up with a pension that is dependent on the fund's performance. So the stock market risk is borne by the employee rather than the employer. Of course, in theory one might end up better off than with a final salary scheme should the stock market (and the fund managers) be doing well when one retires, but its the insecurity that is unattractive. Also, I hear that at the same time as all this, employers are taking the opportunity to lower the contributions they make as well, which is less forgivable.

What with one thing and another, the government is generally perceived to be doing a rather weak job of sorting out the pension problem. A few years ago they launched something called 'stakeholder pensions', which have been a bit of a flop. They recently ducked out of any radical solution like forcing people to put earnings into a pension fund. They warned that people will have to work longer in the future, which caused a fuss.

Public sector pensions are still pretty good, I think. And accountants are rich and should be able to sort themselves out quite comfortably.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:54 (twenty-three years ago)

how much of a pension do you draw at the moment, N?

RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:56 (twenty-three years ago)

My work is never done :(

jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:01 (twenty-three years ago)

There is no legally required minimum holiday time in the US. I worked for one firm (and not very long) that allowed you to take one week unpaid once a year. I get 29 days, but more typically it's 10-15 days.

No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:07 (twenty-three years ago)

The UK's pension situation sounds a lot like Canada's. Financial advisors generally recommend having retirement savings in addition to pensions (company pensions are relatively rare here; pensions for government employees are usually mandatory and are pretty good). We have something here called RRSPs (registered retirement savings plans) that allow people to shelter their retirement savings from tax, and that's what I'm doing. The national pension plan (CPP) was in danger of running out of money a few years ago, but they've apparently fixed it, though it's still not a lot of money, and a retiree would pretty much be living under the poverty line if they had no other income. I anticipate working until I'm 60 (28 more years - groan...).

Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh yeah, and the government has also made pensions less and less tax advantageous, so the point where I don't really see the difference between a personal pension and a tax-free investment such as an ISA.

Other scandal in the UK was the 'misselling' of pension plans by representatives of many of the major pesnions companies. People were encouraged to opt out of SERPS (State Earnings-Related Pension Scheme) by wily salesmen, and ended up with innappopriate products. Or something like that. I don't know why I know all this. It's the story of my adult life - I know lots of stuff about money but I never have any and my finances are in a complete mess. While other people know fuck all, have no investments till they bought their London flat three years ago which has now quadrupled in value or whatever.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:16 (twenty-three years ago)

While I am left with crappy shares and PEPs that are worth half what they were three years ago. I guess that will teach me to be a capitalist pig.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Generally, as I'm surprised you haven't realized by now, PEOPLE SUCK.

Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:29 (twenty-three years ago)

I worked for a company that allowed you an unlimited (undefined really) amount of paid sick time). The catch was you weren't allowed to get sick more than 3 times a year. If you did get sick though, your boss would tell you to take at least a week off, because if you were sick for a day, came back in, and then relapsed, that counted as two sicknesses. As for vacations, generally in the US you start a 10 days per year in the white collar world, and go up slowly from there. big whoop. Maybe we will get more when if WC workers ever realize they should unionize. Or we destroy all the damn capitalist pigs.

g (graysonlane), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:30 (twenty-three years ago)

where I work, in order to lure competent managers, they offer four weeks of personal time. the only catch is that you are expected to be at work every day (so people have literally accumulated hundreds of hours of personal time that they can never use). suckers.

You can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave.

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Years ago, I worked in the wages & work study section of a cardboard box manufacturer (slightly less dull than in the Simpsons). I was wages, but the work study people who set up the rules and targets and scoring for the bonus scheme. One day, one guy went to the foreman an hour after starting and said he'd finished - he'd done exactly what was required to precisely hit the maximum allowed bonus. They wouldn't let him go home, but the quotas had been formally agreed with the unions, so they couldn'd change them. All my time there, he did exactly the same number of boxes every single day.

(The weekly wages took me 2-3 days each week. When I was leaving, they got two people in to replace me - the manager there was crap at work study, but top at empire building.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:57 (twenty-three years ago)

25 days are you shittin me? we get two weeks paid.

Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, but you live in the greatest nation on Earth so it's OK.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 23 January 2003 14:25 (twenty-three years ago)

That's what happens when you live somewhere that's entirely market driven Chris V.

Most people complain 5 weeks isn't enough though. I work at a newspaper where we are expected (but not forced) to come to work on every public holiday, with the incentive of 50% extra pay, and a "lieu day", a day off at our own choosing. I don't mind doing this because it means I can save them up and get an extra two weeks off every year (I work three 12 and a half hour shifts a week.)

Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

The french get 35 days plus public holidays plus every hour you work above 35 hours a week gets added to your holiday time based on a 35 hour week. So work 40 hours a week and get an extra weeks holiday every seven weeks.

As far as that scheme goes it seems entirely reasonable, it appears to combine all of the benefits of contract work with job security. One has to wonder how one protects your workload from increasing.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:19 (twenty-three years ago)

These things always make me suspicious - it sounds like they're being really nice but I'm convinced that there will be unspoken pressure on people to work hard and not take any holiday at all.

Also, if you finish a project and bugger off then you will never be there to get given any more work so you need never come back! Permanent holidays!

liz (lizg), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:23 (twenty-three years ago)

that's it i'm moving to europe

geeta, Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:25 (twenty-three years ago)

At the moment I get 30 days annual plus public holidays and an extra week at Christmas (as the building is shut). In total this works out effectiovely at 41 days. I find it quite hard to actually use all of this because as a manager at my work I have to - like manage. SO I am attempting to negotiate soon an hours contract where instead of working 35 hours a week I work 1470 hour year - which would fit in a lot better with my work schedule. (allowing me to come in for a couple of hours when its quiet, and to work into the night when busy).

Waiting and seeing on this proposal.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I used to get 25 plus I only worked a nine days in every two weeks anyway so in all it was approaching 50 days a year. It was nice having a job that bordered on the part time. Now I just get 25 bah.

Americans are mugs. I guess you can take holiday between jobs though.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Unpaid nick, that's not really a holiday - its unemployment.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I only get 20, is my company breaking the law? I was sure the legal requirment in the UK was only 20.

smee (smee), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:40 (twenty-three years ago)

I believe twenty is the legal minimum, yes. Officially this does not even have to include national holidays.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:43 (twenty-three years ago)

isnt the UK the singiest country in western Europe for paid leave tho?

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:50 (twenty-three years ago)

absolutely the whole public holidays thing sucks aswell. It means companies can get away with 12 days plus public holidays which is almost as bad as the US.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 23 January 2003 15:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Its a really tricky thing for small businesses though. If you work a three or four man operation, you literally grind to a halt when staff are away. Its a problem I have here which is why I generally don't take all of my entitlement.

Sick days are mad in the States too. Over here you get six months sickness - as long as you are actually sick (ie proof with Doctors notes after three days).

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The UK is in every possible way somewhere between the USA and continental Europe - discuss

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought they'd changed it for doctors note after 7 days?

Best thing for small businesses. Coops give everyone a stake in the business then not only do people have a real reason to turn up but since they own the business paid holiday is kind of an arbitrary concept.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Co-ops are also notoriously difficult to manage : everyone having a stake in success = everyone being boss = you work at the rate of your worst worker (much Little Red Henisms come in here). As I work for a Union it is officially a co-op though my pay comes from outside that structure - and it is very difficult to motivate the staff through the sense of ownership. Its even more difficult to explain these concepts to non-staff who steal things. You are only stealing from yourself I say - they look at me (quite rightly I guess) with blank incomprehension. How can i be stealing from myself if I didin't have it before.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Unpaid nick, that's not really a holiday - its unemployment.

Well yeah, but if Americans are all futuristic and flexible so get paid more and have mucho job instability then it becomes a realistic equivalent.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I get twenty days, but working my job means bank holidays aren't added to that total. I was about to ask who to sue but having read Pete's post a few up realise that I simply have to get my own restaurant as fast as possible.

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:36 (twenty-three years ago)

And make somebody else work bank holidays. *Sigh* I never intended turning out as a rampant exploiter of the workers, but if it's the only way I get to put my feet up...

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:39 (twenty-three years ago)

...presumably using one of the workers as a footrest...

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 23 January 2003 16:39 (twenty-three years ago)

I get 25 days plus bank holidays plus about six days extra at Easter and Christmas where the college closes, making about 39, except this year I carried 10 days forward from last year, giving me a total of 49 days!

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 23 January 2003 18:56 (twenty-three years ago)

N. owns shares???

Graham (graham), Thursday, 23 January 2003 19:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Where I work, we get a few of the public holidays, 7 sick/personal days per year and because I've been here for a third of my life I get 4 weeks' vacation (i.e., after 10 years). It's not enough.

luna (luna.c), Thursday, 23 January 2003 19:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I work for the NHS so I get 30 days, including Bank Holidays, which we get extra pay for. Then we gain 1 extra day after every 5 years.
The Pension is one of the best going. If I change jobs within the NHS all the pension and holiday benefits are carried over.
As I only work part time, 25 hours a week, I can do all my hours over 3 days and get a 4 day weekend. We can request specific days off too, so if I take 5 days holiday I can make it stretch to 15 days off work. I love my job! Oh it's dead easy too.

Anyone know what's happening about the extra bank holidays the UK is supposed to be getting to make us more like the rest of Europe?

Celeste (Celeste), Thursday, 23 January 2003 21:13 (twenty-three years ago)

what we need are midweek bank holidays.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 23 January 2003 21:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Like in spain where in one particular week last year they had bank holidays on the Tuesday and the Thursday.
(This may not be factually true but it seemed like it, and they certainly have a lot.)

Celeste (Celeste), Thursday, 23 January 2003 22:05 (twenty-three years ago)


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