Citizenship Query...

2. USA. Widespread persecution of people based on race, color, or creed would probably do it, but even then the Constitution informs me that in such a case it would be my duty as a citizen to overthrow the government, not become a refugee.

Note: I am neither anti-cosmopolitan nor anti-whale. Thus, in answer to your questions:

(1) I am not thusly inclined at the moment and (2) USA / finding some nation I'd rather be a part of, presumably for reasons a bit more concrete and based in deep experience than membership in whaling pacts, and hopefully motivated less by the comforts and perks of said citizenship than with some actual sense of connection with the nation and culture itself.

I am torn about a decision to leave. I can certainly understand an argument to the effect that it would be best to stay and work to correct the problems that I see in this country. And I do see where it could be perceived as being "morally [in]defensible" to abandon a country that has given me so much to seek refuge elsewhere, instead of remaining in the country and paying my dues for my education/ up-bringing, etc., and fighting to change the country toward what I see as being a better path. I am also torn about the idea of renouncing my citizenship to the U.S. in favor of citizenship in another country (provided that another country would allow me citizenship, but not dual-citizenship).

But I am also uncertain if I am currently capable of committing to such a decision and making any sort of a valuable contribution to such a movement.

I guess what I was looking for (and in retrospect obviously missed conveying), with the original post, was input on different countries, different cultures - ideas about what it's like to move to a new country - what are the challenges, rewards, and so forth. And, instead of going with basic stereotypes about cultures/beliefs and so forth, was hoping for more individual insight into the different cultures (something that I have seen in other threads on these boards).

And in regards to the whaling-issue - I see such a stand as being representative of the culture's attitude toward environmental conservation. I realize that this may not be an accurate representaion of the culture, but might rather be the one "environmentally-unfriendly" (my perception of the decision) decision that the government has made in recent years, and that therefore I might feel more comfortable/in-tune with the Icelandic environmental culture movement than I originally have presumed. I was hoping that posts in this thread would correct such a mis-understanding, if I have made one, and give me more/greater insight into some of the different cultures represented by the ILX community.

Here's hoping that I have clarified (and not additionally muddied) things a bit. I did not mean to offend with the inquiry.

That said, I'll repeat again that I understand the condition of the world is not your problem, and I hope you'll eventually enjoy living wherever it is you decide you'd like to live.

really, which are those? i mean the good ones, i'm sure sierra leone would welcome me with open arms, but ...

I like the United States very much but I'm suddenly having a desperate urge to move to Iceland

best of luck to you. iceland has restrictive immigration policies, otherwise i'm sure there'd be a lot more powerbook-toting refugees crawling the streets of rejkjavik.

As an aside, though, from what I understand via a Canadian-born friend who moved here because of this -- getting Canadian citizenship isn't easy even if you marry a Canadian. There's still a lengthy residency requirement (three or four years, I think, after becoming a permanent resident), etc. etc.

Oddly, I've been around conversations where that's come up a lot -- this is nothing to do with Laura, now, the reasons are all different, but I'd run out of fingers counting the friends who've threatened to move to Canada and begun the process of doing so, because of American policies ... but have argued that moving to a different -state- for similar reasons (educational policy, etc.) is too much of a hassle.

Anyway, I wasn't offended by your comments - the points you've raised are quite appropriate and valid - and by making me think harder they've given me some new mental avenues to explore - and that's a good thing. I actually agree with your comments about your "entitlement sensor" going off when the topic is raised. And that, compared to many others who are in actual dire straits, Americans shouldn't need to seek refuge elsewhere. Your comment about citizenship being treated as a "consumer project" has struck a chord - after all, one of my motivations for desiring to leave is disgust at the blatant consumerism I see around me (not that it isn't prevelant in other countries, of course). Perhaps I have been more deeply influenced by that tradition of being able to purchase/own anything that I want more deeply than I had realized - I need to think that point through in more depth.

Thanks for the caveat (spelling?) that the condition of the world is not my problem - but I actually feel like I should argue that point - about how we're all responsible for the situations in the world and that we all are obligated to do what we can to improve life for our fellow inhabitants. And then, I can turn around and become slightly apathetic and say "Look, I've paid my dues, so far as I can see, and now I want to go find a quiet corner of the world where I can spend my days reading, hiking in the mountains, fishing in clean streams..." - basically that whole romantic notion of returning to nature and so forth. My S/O is fond of telling me that I am a born hedonist with a learned strong social conscience, so I am constantly conflicted between what I *want* to do and what I believe I *should* do. One would think that I'd have found that balance by now, but it is still elusive. Half the time I think I should give away everything, move to India, and work with the argiultural education programs. And the other half of the time I think that I should just go some place where I am not bothered by the needs of the world. So how and where is that balance found? Or do I just need to pick one end of the spectrum and throw myself in that direction and see where I fall? (Er, I think that those might well be rhetorical questions, now that I re-read them.)
I am still interested in hearing about other countries where people might think they'd feel at home - kind of going with that whole "world village" concept. Ta - LCD

It's interesting that you mentioned your friends being unwilling to contemplate moving to another state to remove themselves from being under a policy that they view as being unacceptable. I actually think that may be part of my whole attitude problem. I was born and raised in Northern California - nice, liberal, eco-friendly, community-oriented, emphasis on education, culture, etc. And now I find myself, for the present at least (due to S/O being stuck in a job that will end-up with a great mark on the resume, but temporarily has us stuck in the bookdocks), feeling isolated in what I view as being an overtly conservative, segregated, heavily religious community. Yes, those words harsh, but I do feel isolated here - I've heard it said that Florida has pockets of intelligence along the coastlines and in certain in-land areas, but that most of the state is still, well, living at some point in the past (an exaggeration/generalization, of course). Perhaps if I were some place else in the U.S., where I was around more people who share at least some of my views and interests, I might feel differently about desiring to leave the country.

Out of curiosity - you said that you'd consider living outside of the U.S. Where do you think you'd go and why?

As for where I'd live ... I've always thought Thailand. Or Iceland, yeah, and I don't know why. It just seems like a place that I could live for a bit. The girlfriend wants to live abroad in Europe for awhile, and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. Greece or Italy, more than likely -- she's a classicist.

Orlando really is an oddly horrid place to live - there is no sense of community here. The town is based on tourism and the theme parks and making money off of the snowbirds. There's a pocket of "education" around the two universities, and one small area (equivalent of about two blocks) of interesting bars/drag clubs/tiny art galleries.

But instead of bitching, I need to mention the good things - can't say much for the town, but I do like the wilderness of Florida - and the wildlife (can't get enough of the alligators, armadillos [one of my favorites], manatees [my other favorite], and sea turtles [my other, other favorite]). Also as a plus - the great "birding," especially during the winter and early spring. And, of course, there's the space program - being a rocket junkie here is like a chocoholic bathing in chocolate pudding all the day long.

Hmmm...that wasn't too much stretching - maybe I need to focus on the wild aspects of the state rather than the human end of things.

But hey, Orlando -- you've got Epcot center. C'mon. It's EPCOT. Surely that's occasionally cool? :)

what a bunch of loonies. . .no offense to bjork.

hmm, wherever I go I always I come home so I'd never change citizenship. Texas is branded on my soul. But I wouldn't mind sending some of our prodigal sons to go live in a boulder in Iceland.

Okay, I shall conceed that Epcot is occasionally cool - way overpriced, but good escapism (and, with the Florida Resident's Pass, we can afford to go all the time, so long as we don't buy any thing). Actually, I like to go (if I am going to go to a park, that is) to Animal Kingdom - they've some beautiful animals there, especially the bats and the Galapagos Tortoises (I want to bring the latter home with me). But then I feel bad about the whole captivity concept.

Actually, I remember reading an essay about the boulder - apparently it was a cultural thing, but I can't recall the issues.

2. I am a US citizen currently living in Germany. I resent paying taxes to the United States government, because as an ex-pat I do not enjoy most of the privileges that US citizenship brings and because a large protion of my tax money is used to fund the military-industrialist complex and disastrous domestic and foreign policies (I would not say this of state taxes if I were a resident of any state, as much more of that money goes to improve the life of my fellow citizens). I also find myself increasingly alienated from American culture. I would have taken Austrian citizenship already but for two interrelated factors: 1. in the current climate, renouncing my US citizenship would mark me as a suspicious person, and I don't care to be on any lists at Homeland Security, or to have to undergo interrogation every time I want to visit my parents, and 2. dual-citizenship seems to be a sort of "don't ask - don't tell" option that might not be available with the current government running the INS.

I also cannot deny a strong bond with my home town and my home state (I feel much more a Marylander than a US American), and losing my US citizenship would make me no longer a citizen of my old home, which is weird.

Nabisco: I think that the idea of people wanting to emigrate from America need not be tied up with the idea of fleeing America and needing refuge, and I think that we will see more of it in the near future. My life in Europe is better than it would be if I lived in the US.

I can only realistically imagine permanently moving country for love. I'd be quite prepared to do so, too, particularly if it meant moving to the States...

I guess, Laura, I sort of cling to this notion that there's something "deeper" and more meaningful about any given nation or culture than just, let's say, its political administration or standard of living at any given moment -- don't you think it's possible that if you traveled widely and observantly you'd feel most connected or at home in a place or culture for reasons having nothing at all to do with the mechanics of the nation, and everything to do with the spirit of the people or the land itself? Just as a random example: I can't tell you how many Americans I've met who went to Ethiopia during the 60s and 70s -- as missionaries, mostly -- and very happily sort of became Ethiopians, from the surface cultural level to those who actually made permanent residence there. Obviously there is no compelling governmental reason to do such a thing (unless they were fans of really bad Marxist dictatorships).

Ha: I realize what I'm saying here is "don't you want to date the country before you marry it?" That's precisely it, the question originally struck me as saying something like "I've decided to get married, can you recommend any nice men to get married to," whereas I suppose I'm more comfortable with "I went to X nation for Y reason, spent Z amount of time there, and eventually decided it was my home."

But, I also still feel a strong desire to leave the U.S. - maybe the concepts of "fleeing/being a refugee" is inappropriate, but I do not feel that there is anything wrong in my desire to leave the U.S. But I would not give-up my citizenship until I found a place/country where I felt a connection to the people and the land and where I was not ashamed to acknowledge my citizenship.

I was in Barcelona while the whole Branch-Davidians melee was ocurring. I become so frustated at being grilled about the government actions (this was just before and then during the end of the siege), that I was tempted to say I was Canadian, jsut so I wouldn't be grilled so harshly. I didn't like being seen as a representation of the government that made such decisions. Some people seemed to make the assumption (kind of like we Americans are famous for doing) that because I was from the U.S. that I embodied all of the stereotyped beliefs (and since I was living in California at the time, I was also asked why I dyed my hair brown and how many surfboards I owned) about the country. I had people lecture me about how I should be ashamed to show my face, etc. The same lectures occurred with the topics of the death penalty, the environment, the consumerism, the frustration of the stereotyped American culture spreading and destroying native cultures...(again, fill-in additional topics as desired).

My S/O has dual citizenship w/the U.S and Canada - he became an American citizen two years ago (and still hasn't told his family, out of fear of angering them, but that's a whole other can o' wroms). His primary reason for becoming an American? He wanted to be eligible for security clearance so her could work on some specific spacecraft and spacebourne instruments. He says he would have just as easily moved to Japan to work for the NASDA, Europe for the ESA, and so forth. But the U.S. was closest and he likes the warm weather in Florida. So he didn't come here for political reasons, but for opportunities. Is it morally permissable to change one's citizenship based on something that appears to be so superficial?

Anyway, after all of this hooplah, I wanted to let you know that I've been in touch with a close friend from Ghana and have pretty much decided that once my doc. clears me for travel that I'll be heading to Ghana to teach English and History for a couple of years. It should be an interesting adventure, to say the least.

Though EU law gives every EU citizen the right to live and work in another member state in practise the Dutch authorities are very draconian in their interpretation (you must have regular 'legal' work and health insurance).