Can you judge if someone is baing patronising unless you are the one being patronised

Of course you can. In fact, you are better qualified to see patronisation objectively if you are not part of the exchange.

But isn't it patronising (stay with me here) to accuse someone of being patronised if they themselves don't think they are.

Patronising is as much about the implication of the stater as it is the inferral of the listener.

Half the time when I am being deliberately patronising, the patronisee is totally unaware that I am even being so. Does that mean that I am *not* being patronising? Fuck no. It probably will make me *more* patronising as I realise that they are not just naive but stupid.

As an aside I don't think it was. Possibly patronising towards the central character but I think thats a comic device and I don't think you can draw a from it.

1) I do think its a matter of distance though. I don't think I'd be able to tell, I'm so far removed from the retired.

2) Quite possibly. It belittles the relationship between the two people one is observing. It may be valid. I think the realisation has got to come from the patronisee otherwise yes you do end up patronising.

(Agree Ed - I don't think it is either which is partially what prompted the question). Problem with your formulation Kate is that it appears to make it impossible to patronising without doing it deliberately. Because if patronising is in the eye of the patroniser, the patronised is left out of it.

But that doesn't seem wholly right.

In a previous job I got on very well with my boss. He had the same kind of sense of humour as me, heaven help him. But when I told this to someone else they said "How do you tolerate him, he's so patronising!" Now I'd never thought him to be patronising and I told her so, to which she retorted, "You must be very thick skinned!".

But - and this is urgent and key - the person who made the remark was herself unusual in that she took life (and esp. her work) very seriously indeed. I don't think I saw her laugh once in all the time I worked there. I could hear my boss make remarks like "Oooh, you've done that all by yourself! Now can retire!" and find it funny and endearing, but the aforementioned employee would have been fuming when addressed in this way.

So let's say there are four kinds of patronising then since it seems to relate to a relationship between the two parties.

a) Deliberate but un-noticed patronising.
b) Deliberate, noticed patronising.
c) Non-deliberate, noticed patronising.
d) Non-deliberate, non-noticed patronising.

The first three only require two parties (patroniser and and patronised) but the fourth requires a third party.

Where does patronising pubs come into this?

it doesn't.

I don't mind being patronised by a pub. They can pat me on the head and say - "here have a ickle pint" as many times as they like.

Yeah but what if the ickle pint for an ickle soldier was in fact a HALF!

Then I'd be in The French House.