Oh lord... now Bush is making this a macho thing?

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Ugh. I'm really trying hard to not get too involved in this whole war thing cuz it's just so mind-numbing, but this is getting kind of ridiculous. Who's the aggressor again? I keep forgetting. From the NY Times.

WASHINGTON, Feb. 13 — President Bush challenged the United Nations Security Council today to show "backbone and courage" in its deliberations over Iraq, lest it "fade into history as an ineffective, irrelevant debating society."

A day ahead of a crucial report to the Security Council from the United Nations chief weapons inspectors, Mr. Bush baited council members who oppose military action in Iraq, primarily France and Germany.

"You've got to decide when you lay down a resolution, does it mean anything?" he said, speaking at the Maypole Naval Station in Jacksonsville, Fla. The Security Council "can now decide whether or not it has the resolve to enforce its actions."

Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Showing backbone and courage = a macho thing?

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, think of it this way -- you know how everything Saddam and North Korea is saying is being judged as ridiculous bluster? Think of it that way here as well and it's kinda funny.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:53 (twenty-three years ago)

hah, the only problem i have with aaron's thread is the "now"

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:53 (twenty-three years ago)

whether or not it's MAN enough to bow to his wishes?

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Showing backbone and courage = a macho thing?

No, but claiming that others aren't showing it is.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:54 (twenty-three years ago)

N. beat me to it.

Granted the speech was to service men and women, but I find it just gauling. The implication is that the U.N. has made the resolutions and they're pussing out by not enforcing them, but oh no not us, we've got the might and we're not afraid to use it.

Good point Jess. Like I said, I try to keep my blinders on pretty tight these days. Serenity now.

Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-three years ago)

"debating society" = a "fags and geeks" thing. You know, it's what the smart kids do in high school, not the cheerleaders.

Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-three years ago)

but I find it just gauling

Given the whole spat with the French, I sincerely hope this was intentional. ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:58 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned beat me to it!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:58 (twenty-three years ago)

meanwhile:

Because of an editing error, a front-page article yesterday about diplomatic developments in the Iraq crisis misidentified the Bush administration official who said about the weapons inspectors in Iraq, "At some point it will become obvious that it's time for them to go." It was an administration official speaking on condition of anonymity, not Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser.

maura (maura), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:59 (twenty-three years ago)

i really wish one world leader would just speak out against Bush for the sake of balance - i've not been soaking up a wide enough range of angles in the coverage but it just seems like Chirac and Schroder are just being presented as just looking down at their feet and shaking their heads while Bush is hurling abuse at them with a megaphone, while Blair just nods quietly but vigorously. i'll check the eurocentric media for more balance, but i wish Bush and co could be shouted down for once. i know this is bordering on childish stubborn-ness but the current scenario does require a real kick up the arse to be blunt

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 February 2003 21:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hoo-ha, of course it wasn't Condo, how silly of them.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 13 February 2003 21:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Poor old ricey.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 February 2003 21:01 (twenty-three years ago)

"You've got to decide when you lay down a resolution, does it mean anything?" he said, speaking at the Maypole Naval Station in Jacksonsville, Fla. The Security Council "can now decide whether or not it has the resolve to enforce its actions."

...this statement of course does not apply to Israel and their rampant numerous SC resolution violations.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 13 February 2003 21:03 (twenty-three years ago)

(yeah that was supposed to be a little pun... probably not very funny though)

Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 13 February 2003 21:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmm, I wonder why he's asking the U.N. to adhere to its resolutions when the U.S. has famously ignored the U.N. when it wants to (overdue payments, Kosovo, etc., etc.)?

hstencil, Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:17 (twenty-three years ago)

i wish Bush and co could be shouted down for once. i know this is bordering on childish stubborn-ness but the current scenario does require a real kick up the arse to be blunt

A senior official in Pyongyang, Ri Kwang-hyok, told the AFP news agency that North Korea was capable of attacking "all military personnel and all military commands of the United States in the world" as a self defence measure.

He also called on the Security Council to investigate the United States' own nuclear programme. "We insist that the responsibility of the US must be discussed too," he said.

BBC News

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, it is true that there is only one nation that has ever used an atomic weapon on a civilian population.

Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Two of them, in fact.

Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

you know how everything Saddam and North Korea is saying is being judged as ridiculous bluster?

Yes. Because they are poor and we can kick their asses blindfolded.

Of course this is a macho thing. You should just be thankful he didn't call the French "A bunch of fru-fru pussies" or make any comments about how "The UNSC ain't got the BAWLZ!"

The idea that any other nation is doing any less 'posturing' than you seem to think Bush is guilty of is ridiculous. The concept that Chirac and Schroeder are behaving out of some populist idealism and respect for the wishes of 'the people' is a lot of crap (PS why is everyone so ready to buy this continental BS while regarding their own elected leaders with such suspicion that it borders on the absurd?).

Oh, wait. Nevermind. Now that Momus and Amateurist have arrived with such insightful comments I suppose I'll go buy that toilet auger.

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:40 (twenty-three years ago)

>>A senior official in Pyongyang, Ri Kwang-hyok, told the AFP news agency that North Korea was capable of attacking "all military personnel and all military commands of the United States in the world" as a self defence measure. <<

He'd also claim Kim Il Sung brought the dawn of each day. Take this with the whole shaker of salt.

>>He also called on the Security Council to investigate the United States' own nuclear programme. "We insist that the responsibility of the US must be discussed too," he said.<<

The various ceasefire accords between North and South Korea from over the years (eg the Korean Denuclearization Treaty of 1992 and 1994 Framework with US) prevent North Korea from manufacture of nuclear weapons. No treaty prevents the US from having a stockpile of nuclear weapons. Therefore, the US is under no obligation to allow Security Council members in. It is, however, a rather humorous idea from the Koreans.

-Alan

Alan Conceicao, Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:41 (twenty-three years ago)

You should just be thankful he didn't call the French "A bunch of fru-fru pussies" or make any comments about how "The UNSC ain't got the BAWLZ!"

the Republican congressmen are virtually doing just that according to reports

i'm not saying that Bush is the only one posturing - in fact thats the problem, Chirac and Shroder's posturing is not obtuse enough to contend with the torrent of bullshit that appears to be streaming from Bush, Powell and co. right now. as exquisitely pointed out on other threads, its a friend and ally that calls you to question over what they consider to be dubious actions on your part, to do anything else renders them a sycophant - Bush's heart may be in the right place but his head seems to be so far up his arse its no wonder we're talking about a million people marching to Hyde Park on Saturday

I should also have pointed out that i was wanting a leader technically on the same 'side' as Bush to contest his backward stance on the 'axis of evil' dilemma, so not Kim Sung obviously

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes, that is the thing I find most fascinating about North Korea: the information they're offered, not just in terms of worldview but in terms of pure fact, is so slanted that I'd wager a great proportion of their military honestly believes it could "defeat" the U.S. This lie, in fact, is rather integral to the very life of the regime.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:58 (twenty-three years ago)

the Republican congressmen are virtually doing just that according to reports

so are *ahem* the Democrats

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:03 (twenty-three years ago)

You know, there's something immensely heartening going on. Although many governments have swung to the right in the last couple of years, they haven't taken the people with them. People around the world are moving left very fast. They are being driven left by the appalling behaviour of a small junta. Bush has done more for international socialism than any number of Socialist Worker pamphlets could have done. By banging that 'either with us or against us' gong then being impossible to be with on just about any issue, he has created an international New Left overnight, out of nothing.

I believe we will see something extraordinary on Saturday. There will be a sense of euphoria, a sense that, whatever the supreme court did in 2000, and whatever Tony Blair is doing now, it can't change and can't resist the will of the people, which will prevail. I feel a huge sense of relief, because I'm usually isolated, a minority voice. But on this, I'm just a speck in the ocean, a fleck of foam in a huge rising tide. We, the people! It sounds strange. Bush, the unifier!

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Momus, this the 'Earth One" ILX discussion board again, you crossposting madman.

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:24 (twenty-three years ago)

This Saturday: Watch as a fraction of the electorate turns out to tell both major parties that they plan to throw away even more votes in 2004 than they did the last time around.

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Earth One to Millar! Come join us! Take this flower, put it in your hair!

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:27 (twenty-three years ago)

fat chance of that, Momus. Millar's ILX's version of the O'Reilly Factor.

Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Are the demos in Paris going to be as huge as they'll be in London, Nick?

suzy (suzy), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:30 (twenty-three years ago)

SURPRISE SURPRISE it looks like dick is happening in Boston. I think I'll wander in front of the library rending my garments and gnashing my teeth; I'll probably make money!

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Bush gun-ho clown - giving that speech to the military folk today. In a previous life Bush would be a gun-slinging cowboy fighting Red Indians.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Hey, that's not a flower.

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Are the demos in Paris going to be as huge as they'll be in London, Nick?

No, in a word. I think people here feel their views are represented all the way to the top, which is a nice feeling, but doesn't exactly get anyone out onto the streets.

http://www.stopwar.org

details where the demos are in every city. Please, everyone go. Even you, Millar.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, that should be

http://www.stopwar.org.uk

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:36 (twenty-three years ago)

This Saturday: Watch as a fraction of the electorate turns out to tell both major parties that they plan to throw away even more votes in 2004 than they did the last time around.

you'll be at home playing Risk then?

stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:42 (twenty-three years ago)

n.korea is on the highly strategic kamchatka in risk but where is iraq?

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:44 (twenty-three years ago)

I haven't been on a march since about 1982 but I'm going on this one.

N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 14 February 2003 00:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmm, I wonder why he's asking the U.N. to adhere to its resolutions when the U.S. has famously ignored the U.N. when it wants to (overdue payments, Kosovo, etc., etc.)?

Because UN support for this operation would be an endorsement saying that Bush and the U.S. are doing the Right Thing. The UN realistically can't do much more than refuse to rubber-stamp approval of Bush's war, but I'm pleased to see that they are standing their ground.

j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 14 February 2003 02:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Like it or not (and there's plenty not to like), somebody in BushCo had the right idea from a strictly power-politics point of view when they asked Bush to make sure that in his speech to the UN back in September he essentially called everyone's bluff via the "Look, we've passed resolutions, now it's time to enforce them, yes?" approach. Essentially it forced the issue forward (though there's plenty to argue from the point of view that it shouldn't have been pushed forward -- thus the difference between power-politics and Realpolitik, if you like).

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 14 February 2003 02:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, yeah, my U.N. question was rhetorical, based more on the GOP's longstanding hatred towards the U.N. The U.N. should grandstand just on principal of having to deal with Jesse Helms for so fucking long.

Bush has done more for international socialism than any number of Socialist Worker pamphlets could have done.

That's real easy for you to say sittin' over in Paris, Mr. Nader.

Can't go to the big rally here in NYC 'cause my mom gets in to Newark about the time it all starts. I can't rightly ask her to bail me out of jail, considering she's coming on a weekend super-saver fare.

hstencil, Friday, 14 February 2003 02:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Even if I did support the do-nothing-about-Saddam movement, which I obviously don't, I wouldn't go to a march of this sort for the very reasons Momus celebrates. I have no interest in standing side by side with socialists and Green party uberwonks at a 'rally' which will inevitably be reported by Stalinite fistpumpers as being five times its actual size and described in glowing terms as a victory for Worker's World Party issues and "progressive" social movements (most of which are sneakily designed to remove autonomy and privacy by much more subversive means than anything Ashcroft could come up with, not that I like his monotonous drooling any better).

I did my time as a naive college student for about one semester before I realized that the people leading these sorts of march/singalong antics were pompous hypocrites no better than the suits they endlessly criticized for everything wrong in the world and that said leaders were more often than not so far removed from the people they claimed to speak for that they could barely communicate on the same level.

I believe in the sanctity of the entire bill of rights, not just the First Amendment, and I will not pretend even for a moment to hold solidarity with a trust fund brat who can see no reason for the second, fourth, ninth or tenth.

I took an oath with many others to defend the Constitution against all etcetera you know the story and I think that my getting up in the morning and going to work every day for $2800 a month after taxes is probably enough of a political statement.

No thanks, Momus- I will be staying in for most of the weekend, I imagine, checking in on friends and waiting to see if my phone rings to call me in for a little unpaid overtime.

To the rest of you, I am certain your beliefs are as strong as mine (it's going to be cold as fuck out there) and I wish you the best of luck. Don't do anything stupid and remember to bring a kerchief, you never know when those pig cop bastards will decide to teargas the lot of you for no good reason at all.

Millar (Millar), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:01 (twenty-three years ago)

I believe in the sanctity of the entire bill of rights

Out of curiosity, what is your take on Patriot Act II or whatever version of it has leaked so far? Seems like a compromise at the very least when it comes to them amendments (though as you note, Ashcroft's no friend of yours -- is he a friend of anyone?).

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Also note that large concentrations of people in a small area are popular with another class of generally derided persons - who are unlikely to be wielding so humane a mass dispersant as tear gas.

Millar (Millar), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Millar, I'm definitely nothing more than a registered Democrat (albeit unregistered in my district), and I'd march (if it wasn't for mom) with the commies, if only because my vote didn't count in 2000 because I'm not on the Supreme Court. I'm not a big fan of marches, but since Dubya has even less legitimacy than Billy "No Mandate" Clinton, I feel like I gotta do something.

hstencil, Friday, 14 February 2003 04:07 (twenty-three years ago)

I haven't read much of the PA2 besides the well-advertised nastiness already publicized all over the web. My take on any of the fourth-amendment issues cropping up again and again these days goes like this:

1. Certain jerks like Poindexter of TIA fame think that the current situation means they can get away with anything re: new legislation to help prosecute American citizens and Green Card holders.

2. Congressmen and state governors are not buying any of it, because at the bottom line it's their privacy too, and moreso the states have no desire to give up any more jurisdiction than they already have in such matters - TIA is already getting torn to pieces on the house floor and I'll be quite surprised if any of this shit actually goes through.

3. The big hole in all of these schemes is posse comitatus - the military cannot be mobilized against the citizenry in any capacity. Since most of the current plans to spy on us depend on leveraging DoD assets, I'm speculating that anything that does pass will shortly be annulled in the Supreme Court the first time someone tries to give one of my colleagues a 'lawful order' to monitor the derring-do of what we call a US Person.

We will not turn into Brazil or 1984. Too many people remember that fuck Hoover. Finally, I personally will not allow such garbage should it ever approach accepted practice, and based on that, I don't imagine many others in my profession would either.

Millar (Millar), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Works for me, and I figured something like that was going to happen. Question is, why is it even being attempted when it would clearly founder? Then again, maybe I'm just amused at self-proclaimed superpatriots being terribly unaware of their own system of government.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Well TIA for one is just an attempt to make a lot of federal contract money building and operating an elephantine surveillance agency, nothing more. The FBI's designs on similar topics are kind of like a preemptive jurisdiction-preservation scheme versus the new Homeland Security thingee. The FBI are easily the most territorial of the bunch when it comes to spooks.

Millar (Millar), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Ah, turf wars. Office politics are the same thing no matter where you are.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:35 (twenty-three years ago)

i would go to the march in either NYC or Philly, but i have important personal business that must be done on Sunday (no, that doesn't mean posting here). i will be there in spirit, at least -- though i don't like the idea that the thing is being organized by Milosevic/Kim Jong Il-loving anti-Semites, it's the only game in town. (and before the usual suspects start screeching, howsabout you guys doing some soul-searching about Monkey Boy pandering to the Jesus Freak bigots at Bob Jones during the SC primaries?)

Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 14 February 2003 05:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Millar's disrespect for the Third Amendment just means he wants to crash at YOUR house without asking first.

It seems to me the the Republicans are simply using the macho bullying rhetoric that has done so remarkably well for them in the US (hell, it's allowed them to annex the Democratic Party!) -- the only thing surprising about this is how surprised they are that it doesn't fly in Europe.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 14 February 2003 10:41 (twenty-three years ago)

if they piss me off enough to make even ME want to go march in London (i hate big crowds for one thing, and i'm not looking forward to all the dubious propaganda that will be flying around tomorrow either)
then they should be worried

stevem (blueski), Friday, 14 February 2003 12:34 (twenty-three years ago)


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