US to punish German 'treachery'

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Here's an article in the Guardian concerning Germany's economic fate

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,896573,00.htmlhttp://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,896573,00.html

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:12 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a problem with the url so instead I pasted the article:

US to punish German 'treachery'

Peter Beaumont, David Roseand Paul Beaver
Sunday February 16, 2003
America is to punish Germany for leading international opposition to a war against Iraq. The US will withdraw all its troops and bases from there and end military and industrial co-operation between the two countries - moves that could cost the Germans billions of euros.
The plan - discussed by Pentagon officials and military chiefs last week on the orders of Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - is designed 'to harm' the German economy to make an example of the country for what US hawks see as Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's 'treachery'.

The hawks believe that making an example of Germany will force other countries heavily dependent on US trade to think twice about standing up to America in future.

This follows weeks of increasingly angry exchanges between Rumsfeld and Germany, in which at one point he taunted Germany and France for being an irrelevant part of 'old Europe'.

Now Rumsfeld has decided to go further by unilaterally imposing the Pentagon's sanctions on a country already in the throes of economic problems.

'We are doing this for one reason only: to harm the German economy,' one source told The Observer last week.

'Our troops contribute many millions of dollars. Why should we continue to support a country which has treated Nato and the protection we provided for decades with such incredible contempt?'

Another Pentagon source said: 'The aim is to hit German trade and commerce. It is not just about taking out the troops and equipment; it is also about cancelling commercial contracts and defence-related arrangements.'

The Pentagon plan - and the language expressed by officials close to Rumsfeld - has horrified State Department officials, who believe that bullying other countries to follow the US line will further exacerbate anti-Americanism and alienate those European countries that might support a United Nations resolution authorising a war.

German industry earns billions of euros every year from supporting the US Army Europe which, although reduced from its Cold War heights, still totals 42,000 troops and 785 tanks - almost three times as many as the British Army owns. Many of these soldiers and their fighting equipment, including Apache helicopters, have already been sent to the Gulf.

German industry is heavily involved in supporting the US presence. Among the defence companies which stand to lose out are missile-maker Diehl, aerospace and defence giant EADS Deutschland, armaments maker Rheinmetall and vehicle maker Krauss-Maffei Wegmann.

There is also a US Air Force contingent of about 15,000 service people with bases at Bitburg, Frankfurt-am-Main and neighbouring Ramstein, where the commander doubles as part of the Nato command. This force includes nearly 60 F-16 fighter-bombers and a squadron of A-10 tank-buster aircraft.

Rumsfeld and his staff have made no attempt to hide their fury at Schröder's 'treachery and ineptitude' over Iraq. Last week Schröder leaked to reporters a Franco-German plan for avoiding war by increasing the number of UN weapons inspectors before informing his American counterparts.

'After this, Germany is finished as a serious power,' one of the sources added. 'This is simply not the way to conduct diplomacy at a moment of international crisis.' One diplomatic source said Rumsfeld was 'furious at Germany. He is a bruiser and it looks as though he means to do it'.

Under these plans, the US would move its troops in Europe eastwards to countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states, all of which have strongly supported America's line against Saddam Hussein. It is likely that the overall size of the deployment would be reduced, as the US military changes its priorities for a long-term and disparate engagement with international terrorism.

Although Rumsfeld had already been considering a redeployment of US troops around the world after a war in Iraq to save money and respond to new threats, the plans now under consideration go far beyond what had been discussed.

It is likely that future years will see a sharp increase in the proportion of special forces troops able to deploy rapidly across the globe.

Germany would suffer considerable financial loss if US forces were withdrawn from the country. The bases provide jobs for local people as everything from administrators to cleaners, and are huge customers for dairy products and bread.

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I know that this is the Guardian but there seems to be some plausibility knowing how foolish Bush and Co can be.

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:19 (twenty-three years ago)

I love Guardian headlines.

bnw (bnw), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:40 (twenty-three years ago)

hopefully this will strengthen the EU. i see no bad news in this. i hope they'll take away some of their troops from britain also.

gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:45 (twenty-three years ago)

i hereby rename the 43* administration Dumber and Dumber

gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:49 (twenty-three years ago)

"Foolish mortals! You dare to insult King George! You will pay for your insolence with WAR!!"

jm (jtm), Sunday, 16 February 2003 07:15 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, that'll bring 'em around.

g.cannon (gcannon), Sunday, 16 February 2003 07:39 (twenty-three years ago)

'We're going to stop eating your bread and drinking your milk, Fritz. How ya like us now?'

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Under these plans, the US would move its troops in Europe eastwards to countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states, all of which have strongly supported America's line against Saddam Hussein.

oh, i'm sure the Russians are going to love that. if this is true and i were Monkey Boy, i wouldn't want to look into Vladimir Putin's eyes & and see Pooty-Poot's soul after pulling this stunt. (esp. since the Baltic states aren't part of NATO.)

this whole thing is absolutely insane, if true.

Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:45 (twenty-three years ago)

(haha Putin is scary. speaking of the chechens recently he said something like, "we respect all cultural traditions here in russia. if the chechen terrorists want to come to russia, we will gladly circumsize them regardless of their age." p.s. i think this article is nonsense.)

Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:48 (twenty-three years ago)

C'mon, Momus, it is a serious threat; this isn't some feudal levy pillaging the lands. The military is clearly a huge demand pool for German business and industry, in effect a subsidy, as the FDR doesn't have to support the people/org buying the goods. "Your shops, bakeries, dairies, and factories are now less profitable. Fuck you." E Europe will be only too happy to have them.

I don't think this will happen beyond the "previous plans" mentioned. Rumsfeld seems to have no filter at all for this kind of thing, and has a penchant for turning his angriest impulses into "official" documents (ie reams of memos to the rest of the Pentagon [which they have dubbed "snow")]. He loves to insult.

g.cannon (gcannon), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:55 (twenty-three years ago)

putin doesn't bother me. he's probably the most capable and sane leader Russia's had since Khrushchev. chechnya aside*, he seems to have brought some order after the place went Wild West under Yeltsin (i.e., laws are actually being enforced now, instead of ignored or openly flaunted). i guess that since he is competent and not a drunken buffoon like Yeltsin, that makes him more "dangerous." but i don't think that he's the ogre that some make him out to be. he's no Pinochet or Brezhnev.

at any rate, the Russians could be run by much worse -- does anyone really want a Weimar Russia (or, more precisely, the aftermath of a Weimar Russia)? which is what this Rumsfeld nonsense is virtually inviting (if it's true).

(* what the Russians have done in Chechnya is pretty scary and brutal, no disagreement. but the Chechens ain't exactly the nicest people in the world, and the brutalities aside Russia does have some pretty solid and convincing reasons against letting them break off [at least as solid as we had for not letting the South secede, or the British do for being in Northern Ireland].)

Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:58 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know if I believe this. Yet. It just seems too outlandish, even for Rummy.

Vic (Vic), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Okay, my serious take is: this is all part of a much wider shift, which could just be temporary (ie none of this will matter much if the Democrats get in at the 2004 US election) or could be epochal (if the US continues with these hawks at the helm).

What has happened is that the world has divided, strategically, into three blocks, which I'd call (if I were some sort of latter-day William Blake) Angrael (all English-speaking countries plus Israel), Eurasia (the whole north Eurasian landmass from China to France) and Poveria (all the poor countries in South America, Africa, India, and the Islamic middle east).

A whole series of new questions then arise. Will Japan glom onto Eurasia or stick with Angrael? What governments will replace the current ones in Britain and Australia? Isn't it possible that Britain will decide that its interest lie with Eurasia instead? Will the Americans redefine Eurasia as their real military-economic opponent, and try to enlist / bribe / invade-restructure Poveria countries as their main allies? Far-fetched as this may sound, there is surely someone writing a policy paper in Washington right now along quite similar lines.

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:21 (twenty-three years ago)

bushco never ceases to amaze me with their ability to be awful beyond my wildest imagination. and i've got a pretty active and wild imagination, lemme tell you. so no, this does seem pretty far-fetched and it would be nice if there were some other verification (that this isn't just Rumsfeld having a foot-stamping tantrum 'cause he is streng verboten at his Tante Hilde's in Hamburg). but with this bunch of evil clowns, is anything too far-fetched?

Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Germany would suffer considerable financial loss if US forces were withdrawn from the country.

Bullshit. Most of the US bases were closed down after the end of the Cold War anyway. Let's hope they take Echelon with them when they leave.

Wintermute (Wintermute), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:39 (twenty-three years ago)

And let us keep our nuclear reactors and aspirin factories.

Wintermute (Wintermute), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:40 (twenty-three years ago)

well as momus states i can only hope americas current stance results in a stronger europe. this remains to be seen though

gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 11:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually its the EU who will fuck up the US economy through a strong euro, especially if OPEC makes the switch from dollars to euros. Preventing this switch is the most plausiable reason I have heard for the Iraq war.

fletrejet, Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:10 (twenty-three years ago)

in the long run i am wondering if, economically at least, america are actually doing europe a HUGE favour

gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Just curious - re Europe, what's the attraction?

dave q, Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Cheese, apparently.

Ed (dali), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:44 (twenty-three years ago)

it attracts canadians

gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:53 (twenty-three years ago)

dave you like 'us'. you do!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:58 (twenty-three years ago)

if I was German I'd be glad to see the backs of the US troops stationed there. Why should there be any US troops stationed anywhere in Europe? It's all a legacy of the Cold War. We can see clearly that the threat to our security is from international terrorism, not from anyone invading us. And even if Germany does suffer from the US action, that still won't make the country poor, just poorer. It might plunge it further into recession, but it will certainly not have any effects from which the country will not recover in a period of three or four years.

I hope OPEC goes ahead and switches from the dollar to the euro. That will be wonderful.

Re: Putin and the Chechens - if Putin does give in to them, it will then have 72 autonoums regions of the Russian Federation demanding independence from Moscow. It's very easy to see the whole landmass from St Petersburg to Vladivostok as just "Russia" when really it comprises ppls with a multitude of different cultures and languages who would demand indepoendence by fair means or foul should Vladimir capitulate to the Chechens. So yes, he has been brutal, but he almost certainly feels that he can't do otherwise.

MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 16 February 2003 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

German public opinion is not all that concerned about this particular US threat. A boycott of German goods would hit closer, but THAT ain't gonna happen.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Sunday, 16 February 2003 18:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I was sent a newspaper article the other day about the FDA wanting to label all imported French red wine as "potentially curated in a process using BOVINE BLOOD" with a big orange sticker. This is somehow revolting and childish all at the same time.

It's just incredibly stupid. Our president is an asshole; I don't understand how even war supporters can go behind Bush.

Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 17 February 2003 05:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Great, not only do the hyperbole pills make him talk like an eighth-grader, they make him ACT like one, too.

Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Monday, 17 February 2003 05:27 (twenty-three years ago)

What has happened is that the world has divided, strategically, into three blocks, which I'd call (if I were some sort of latter-day William Blake) Angrael (all English-speaking countries plus Israel), Eurasia (the whole north Eurasian landmass from China to France) and Poveria (all the poor countries in South America, Africa, India, and the Islamic middle east).

i think this is wishful thinking on your part momus. i think, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, the difference between europe and america is still negligable. especially as, once the war starts, france and germany will be behind the us. the current differences between europe and america are minor and about control of the same ship, rather than of different ships

gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 11:32 (twenty-three years ago)

"Bush is another word for C***"

from a banner seen by a friend on the march on Saturday

chris (chris), Monday, 17 February 2003 11:40 (twenty-three years ago)

lucky they didn't run into the Cunt Coven banner ppl, then!!

mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 February 2003 11:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Momus: clever wording. Cheers.

the pinefox, Monday, 17 February 2003 11:47 (twenty-three years ago)

oh that's a real great way to get people to AGREE with you. threaten them. you're not supposed to do that to your ALLIES!

Maria (Maria), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Of course this is the GUARDIAN and they are fucking PILLARS OF FINE JOURNALISM

Gareth DO YOU SEE?

Fuck you all. What utter pandering bullshit.

Millar (Millar), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:51 (twenty-three years ago)

see what millar? i dont understand.

public opinion in europe is not in favour of the war. what is wrong with that? are you saying that we should back the US no matter what? surely, we have the right to make our own decisions, even if that means disagreeing with america, for whatever reason. we have to look after our national interest just as you are doing over iraq

gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:54 (twenty-three years ago)

No but everybody just bought this story hook line and sinker. Amateurist is the only one who seems to think this might be a bunch of horseshit, which in my mind it is, indubitably. It has nothing to do with looking after yr own interests - I have nothing against that, foreign policy is all about backstabbing and you have to play it as such - but reading the above and commenting as if 'Bushco' had ALREADY DONE IT without a lick of skepticism is exactly what I was talking about on the other thread. I think I'll just quit visiting war threads for a while.

Millar (Millar), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:00 (twenty-three years ago)

but isn't the guardian editorial line pro-war? (sorry i almost never read it except when i'm at my sister's)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:04 (twenty-three years ago)

No. That's the Observer (which is confusing cos they share their website).

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:06 (twenty-three years ago)

But this is an Observer story, so the comment stands!

Tom (Groke), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-three years ago)

oh ok

mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

The story is also in Stars & Stripes, f'rchrissake, Millar.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

it is a fair point that it was taken as read, uncritically

gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Millar, I think you'll find that unlike most US and UK news organs, the Guardian/Observer papers are not pandering to anyone, not least the political/business interests of an owner/proprietor/government; they are held instead by the Scott Trust SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO.


suzy (suzy), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

colin, perhaps that is because such a story is beneficial both to the left and the right? (true or not)

gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't the US supposed to respect minority opinion and dissenters?
Does this only apply to its own citizenz, and to them only in theory?

oops (Oops), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, the story itself is a source here, a source there and big dollops of speculation. It could be true. It could be completely made up. It could be Rumsfeld going "why I oughtta -!" and getting spun into something bigger. It could be kite-flying.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Gareth -- there is no story that cannot be claimed as beneficial.

Everybody -- go type some words into http://news.google.com -- this isn't a made-up story.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I will be mad impressed with news.google.com if I can type in "pretty pretty pony" and get a news story about withdrawing troops from Germany.

DAMMIT THWARTED AGAIN

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:17 (twenty-three years ago)

>>What has happened is that the world has divided, strategically, into three blocks, which I'd call (if I were some sort of latter-day William Blake) Angrael (all English-speaking countries plus Israel), Eurasia (the whole north Eurasian landmass from China to France) and Poveria (all the poor countries in South America, Africa, India, and the Islamic middle east).<<

So where does Scandinavia and the Pacific Rim fit in again? Or do they just not count?

-
Alan

Alan Conceicao, Monday, 17 February 2003 17:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Dan, you did get a story abt 'London's Deadliest Enemy' which makes pretty pretty ponies seem like much bigger concerns than Iraq wouldn't you say?

Millar (Millar), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:27 (twenty-three years ago)


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