http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,896573,00.htmlhttp://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,896573,00.html
― Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:12 (twenty-three years ago)
US to punish German 'treachery'
Peter Beaumont, David Roseand Paul BeaverSunday February 16, 2003America is to punish Germany for leading international opposition to a war against Iraq. The US will withdraw all its troops and bases from there and end military and industrial co-operation between the two countries - moves that could cost the Germans billions of euros. The plan - discussed by Pentagon officials and military chiefs last week on the orders of Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - is designed 'to harm' the German economy to make an example of the country for what US hawks see as Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's 'treachery'.
The hawks believe that making an example of Germany will force other countries heavily dependent on US trade to think twice about standing up to America in future.
This follows weeks of increasingly angry exchanges between Rumsfeld and Germany, in which at one point he taunted Germany and France for being an irrelevant part of 'old Europe'.
Now Rumsfeld has decided to go further by unilaterally imposing the Pentagon's sanctions on a country already in the throes of economic problems.
'We are doing this for one reason only: to harm the German economy,' one source told The Observer last week.
'Our troops contribute many millions of dollars. Why should we continue to support a country which has treated Nato and the protection we provided for decades with such incredible contempt?'
Another Pentagon source said: 'The aim is to hit German trade and commerce. It is not just about taking out the troops and equipment; it is also about cancelling commercial contracts and defence-related arrangements.'
The Pentagon plan - and the language expressed by officials close to Rumsfeld - has horrified State Department officials, who believe that bullying other countries to follow the US line will further exacerbate anti-Americanism and alienate those European countries that might support a United Nations resolution authorising a war.
German industry earns billions of euros every year from supporting the US Army Europe which, although reduced from its Cold War heights, still totals 42,000 troops and 785 tanks - almost three times as many as the British Army owns. Many of these soldiers and their fighting equipment, including Apache helicopters, have already been sent to the Gulf.
German industry is heavily involved in supporting the US presence. Among the defence companies which stand to lose out are missile-maker Diehl, aerospace and defence giant EADS Deutschland, armaments maker Rheinmetall and vehicle maker Krauss-Maffei Wegmann.
There is also a US Air Force contingent of about 15,000 service people with bases at Bitburg, Frankfurt-am-Main and neighbouring Ramstein, where the commander doubles as part of the Nato command. This force includes nearly 60 F-16 fighter-bombers and a squadron of A-10 tank-buster aircraft.
Rumsfeld and his staff have made no attempt to hide their fury at Schröder's 'treachery and ineptitude' over Iraq. Last week Schröder leaked to reporters a Franco-German plan for avoiding war by increasing the number of UN weapons inspectors before informing his American counterparts.
'After this, Germany is finished as a serious power,' one of the sources added. 'This is simply not the way to conduct diplomacy at a moment of international crisis.' One diplomatic source said Rumsfeld was 'furious at Germany. He is a bruiser and it looks as though he means to do it'.
Under these plans, the US would move its troops in Europe eastwards to countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states, all of which have strongly supported America's line against Saddam Hussein. It is likely that the overall size of the deployment would be reduced, as the US military changes its priorities for a long-term and disparate engagement with international terrorism.
Although Rumsfeld had already been considering a redeployment of US troops around the world after a war in Iraq to save money and respond to new threats, the plans now under consideration go far beyond what had been discussed.
It is likely that future years will see a sharp increase in the proportion of special forces troops able to deploy rapidly across the globe.
Germany would suffer considerable financial loss if US forces were withdrawn from the country. The bases provide jobs for local people as everything from administrators to cleaners, and are huge customers for dairy products and bread.
― Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:15 (twenty-three years ago)
― Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:19 (twenty-three years ago)
― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:40 (twenty-three years ago)
― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:45 (twenty-three years ago)
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 16 February 2003 06:49 (twenty-three years ago)
― jm (jtm), Sunday, 16 February 2003 07:15 (twenty-three years ago)
― g.cannon (gcannon), Sunday, 16 February 2003 07:39 (twenty-three years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:34 (twenty-three years ago)
oh, i'm sure the Russians are going to love that. if this is true and i were Monkey Boy, i wouldn't want to look into Vladimir Putin's eyes & and see Pooty-Poot's soul after pulling this stunt. (esp. since the Baltic states aren't part of NATO.)
this whole thing is absolutely insane, if true.
― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:45 (twenty-three years ago)
― Amateurist (amateurist), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:48 (twenty-three years ago)
I don't think this will happen beyond the "previous plans" mentioned. Rumsfeld seems to have no filter at all for this kind of thing, and has a penchant for turning his angriest impulses into "official" documents (ie reams of memos to the rest of the Pentagon [which they have dubbed "snow")]. He loves to insult.
― g.cannon (gcannon), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:55 (twenty-three years ago)
at any rate, the Russians could be run by much worse -- does anyone really want a Weimar Russia (or, more precisely, the aftermath of a Weimar Russia)? which is what this Rumsfeld nonsense is virtually inviting (if it's true).
(* what the Russians have done in Chechnya is pretty scary and brutal, no disagreement. but the Chechens ain't exactly the nicest people in the world, and the brutalities aside Russia does have some pretty solid and convincing reasons against letting them break off [at least as solid as we had for not letting the South secede, or the British do for being in Northern Ireland].)
― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 08:58 (twenty-three years ago)
― Vic (Vic), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:17 (twenty-three years ago)
What has happened is that the world has divided, strategically, into three blocks, which I'd call (if I were some sort of latter-day William Blake) Angrael (all English-speaking countries plus Israel), Eurasia (the whole north Eurasian landmass from China to France) and Poveria (all the poor countries in South America, Africa, India, and the Islamic middle east).
A whole series of new questions then arise. Will Japan glom onto Eurasia or stick with Angrael? What governments will replace the current ones in Britain and Australia? Isn't it possible that Britain will decide that its interest lie with Eurasia instead? Will the Americans redefine Eurasia as their real military-economic opponent, and try to enlist / bribe / invade-restructure Poveria countries as their main allies? Far-fetched as this may sound, there is surely someone writing a policy paper in Washington right now along quite similar lines.
― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:21 (twenty-three years ago)
― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:24 (twenty-three years ago)
Bullshit. Most of the US bases were closed down after the end of the Cold War anyway. Let's hope they take Echelon with them when they leave.
― Wintermute (Wintermute), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:39 (twenty-three years ago)
― Wintermute (Wintermute), Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:40 (twenty-three years ago)
― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 11:12 (twenty-three years ago)
― fletrejet, Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:10 (twenty-three years ago)
― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:12 (twenty-three years ago)
― dave q, Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:41 (twenty-three years ago)
― Ed (dali), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:44 (twenty-three years ago)
― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:53 (twenty-three years ago)
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 16 February 2003 13:58 (twenty-three years ago)
I hope OPEC goes ahead and switches from the dollar to the euro. That will be wonderful.
Re: Putin and the Chechens - if Putin does give in to them, it will then have 72 autonoums regions of the Russian Federation demanding independence from Moscow. It's very easy to see the whole landmass from St Petersburg to Vladivostok as just "Russia" when really it comprises ppls with a multitude of different cultures and languages who would demand indepoendence by fair means or foul should Vladimir capitulate to the Chechens. So yes, he has been brutal, but he almost certainly feels that he can't do otherwise.
― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 16 February 2003 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Sunday, 16 February 2003 18:03 (twenty-three years ago)
It's just incredibly stupid. Our president is an asshole; I don't understand how even war supporters can go behind Bush.
― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 17 February 2003 05:19 (twenty-three years ago)
― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Monday, 17 February 2003 05:27 (twenty-three years ago)
i think this is wishful thinking on your part momus. i think, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, the difference between europe and america is still negligable. especially as, once the war starts, france and germany will be behind the us. the current differences between europe and america are minor and about control of the same ship, rather than of different ships
― gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 11:32 (twenty-three years ago)
from a banner seen by a friend on the march on Saturday
― chris (chris), Monday, 17 February 2003 11:40 (twenty-three years ago)
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 February 2003 11:45 (twenty-three years ago)
― the pinefox, Monday, 17 February 2003 11:47 (twenty-three years ago)
― Maria (Maria), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)
Gareth DO YOU SEE?
Fuck you all. What utter pandering bullshit.
― Millar (Millar), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:51 (twenty-three years ago)
public opinion in europe is not in favour of the war. what is wrong with that? are you saying that we should back the US no matter what? surely, we have the right to make our own decisions, even if that means disagreeing with america, for whatever reason. we have to look after our national interest just as you are doing over iraq
― gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:54 (twenty-three years ago)
― Millar (Millar), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:00 (twenty-three years ago)
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:04 (twenty-three years ago)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:06 (twenty-three years ago)
― Tom (Groke), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-three years ago)
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)
― gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)
― suzy (suzy), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)
― gareth (gareth), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)
― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)
― Tom (Groke), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-three years ago)
Everybody -- go type some words into http://news.google.com -- this isn't a made-up story.
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)
DAMMIT THWARTED AGAIN
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:17 (twenty-three years ago)
So where does Scandinavia and the Pacific Rim fit in again? Or do they just not count?
- Alan
― Alan Conceicao, Monday, 17 February 2003 17:24 (twenty-three years ago)
― Millar (Millar), Monday, 17 February 2003 17:27 (twenty-three years ago)