"what is the purpose of criticism?"

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josh: man what good is criticism anyway
josh: can't we all just listen to records
jess: wait wait i got a good quote
josh: or take naps
jess: oh i cant find it
jess: anyway it was from famed racist ts eliot
jess: arguing for the value of crit
josh: eh, i don't remember his argument for it but i remember his lameass poetry and his lameass theory of criticism
josh: depressives got no need for criticism
jess: josh stop making me consider suicide there
jess: nothing is important enough to bear explanation or scrutiny!

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 February 2003 07:20 (twenty-three years ago)

values are not all equal;
imo the philosopher/critic's job is to (help) sort them out by using reasonable arguments made with concepts (that can appeal to emotions). interesting philosophers/critics make their own concepts.
life is key.

the hegemon, Thursday, 20 February 2003 07:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't know about the criticism part, but

In the room the women come and go
talking of Michelangelo

is such a great line. Don't hate on famed racist ts eliot. Well, go ahead, you'll feel better.

Skottie, Thursday, 20 February 2003 07:54 (twenty-three years ago)

...a pair of ragged claws, scuttling across <_______> seas....

I love the opening imagery of the fog as a cat, in Prufrock. And his book (illustrated by Gorey) about cats, though I can't remember the name, now.

Didn't know about the racism or the crit.

I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Thursday, 20 February 2003 08:05 (twenty-three years ago)

The purpose of criticism is to help us discover things we like. The purpose of philosophy is to help us live our lives better. They are both the same goal.

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 20 February 2003 08:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Wow - too deep for me at 3:38 AM. But it sounds brilliant.

I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Thursday, 20 February 2003 08:39 (twenty-three years ago)

"However, the fate of art that tries to do without criticism is instructive. The attempt to reach the public directly through "popular" art assumes that criticism is artificial and public taste natural. Behind this is a further assumption about natural taste which goes back through Tolstoy to Romantic theories of a spontaenously creative "folk." These theories have had a fair trial; they have not stood up very well to the facts of literary history and experience, and it is perhaps time to move beyond them. An extreme reaction against the primitive view, at one time associated with the "art for art's sake" catchword, thinks of art in precisely the opposite terms, as a mystery, an initiation into an esoterically civilized community. Here criticism is restricted to ritual masonic gestures, to raised eyebrows and cryptic comments and other signs of an understanding too occult for syntax. The fallacy common to both attitudes is that of a rough correlation between the merit of art and the degree of public response to it, though the correlation assumed is direct in one case and inverse in the other.

[...]

"There is another reason why criticism has to exist. Criticism can talk, and all the arts are dumb. In painting, sculpture, or music it is easy enough to see that the art shows forth, but cannot say anything. And, whatever it sounds like to call the poet inarticulate or speechless, there is a most important sense in which poems are as silent as statues. Poetry is a disinterested use of words: it does not address a reader directly. When it does so, we usually feel that the poet has some distrust in the capacity of the readers and critics to interpret his meaning without assistance, and has therefore dropped into the sub-poetic level of metrical talk ("verse" or "doggerel") which anybody can learn to produce.... The axiom of criticism must be, not that the poet does not know what he is talking about, but that he cannot talk about what he knows. To defend the right of criticism to exist at all, therefore, is to assume that criticism is a structure of thought and knowledge existing in its own right, with some measure of independence from the art it deals with."

- Northrop Frye, Anatomy of Criticism, "Polemical Introduction"

Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 20 February 2003 09:42 (twenty-three years ago)

the purpose of criticism is to feel better than stuff

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:04 (twenty-three years ago)

You may have said something very clever there.

Lara (Lara), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:09 (twenty-three years ago)

The purpose of criticism: to keep people like me in a job.

alext (alext), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:10 (twenty-three years ago)

helps critics feel clever

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Obvious reply, sorry.

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:14 (twenty-three years ago)

everybody's a critic

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:16 (twenty-three years ago)

caveman 2: "but wouldn't it be better if it wz round?"
caveman 1: "fuck u and the horse u rode in on!!"

*lightbulbs appear over both cavemen's heads*

(also one or both of them might have been women)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah I'm sort of a critic even, outside of "this is good" I don't know what the point is, analysing things you love isn't much fun

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Did she have a Janet Street Porter fringe?

Lara (Lara), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:20 (twenty-three years ago)

No wait it's really nice to have people whose opinions you respect tell you they like what you wrote! 'Critcism as an artform' though, people used to really be into that

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Criticise my spelling, geez.

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Some clever person held that criticism was dependent on the principles of beauty and truth. Julian Sands kept on warbling away about them in A Room with a View, remember?

Lara (Lara), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:26 (twenty-three years ago)

keats rox u r all enthusiasts

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:27 (twenty-three years ago)

There was a story in this week's Sunday Times about Eliot having helped fleeing Jews in WWII.

I would link it but you'll have to find a copy in a bin somewhere as I'm not paying £39.99 for the privilege of accessing Times Online - it's like going into the newsagent and being forced to take out a year's subscription before you can buy the bloody paper.

Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 20 February 2003 11:58 (twenty-three years ago)

The purpose of criticism is to help us discover new ways of liking things. (subject to revision)

Douglas (Douglas), Thursday, 20 February 2003 13:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Janet Street Porter fringe

This sounds like it should be a comedy festival. Not a very good one, though.

SittingPretty (sittingpretty), Thursday, 20 February 2003 14:13 (twenty-three years ago)

The purpose of criticism is to help us discover new ways of liking things.

I like this answer.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 20 February 2003 14:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Or hating. Hating's good.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 20 February 2003 14:17 (twenty-three years ago)

If you're Tanya Headon.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 20 February 2003 14:17 (twenty-three years ago)

tanya hates hate and she also hates YOU

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 20 February 2003 14:19 (twenty-three years ago)

moi?

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 20 February 2003 14:20 (twenty-three years ago)

50% good advice, 50% garbage: the ilx way.

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 February 2003 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Rawk.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 20 February 2003 16:24 (twenty-three years ago)

still 50% better than every other internet message board i might add!

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 20 February 2003 16:27 (twenty-three years ago)

what is the porpoise of criticism: a turtle.

jel -- (jel), Thursday, 20 February 2003 18:12 (twenty-three years ago)

to dance abt architecture.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 20 February 2003 18:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm a big fan of criticism. I think it's very important to developing understanding of art. This isn't something apart from enjoyment, it's a valuable part of it - I have got far more pleasure out of books, comics, films, art and all that the more I've read and studied and learnt. I wasn't sure about going to the Titian show on now, but a good piece by Adrian Searle a day or two ago pointed out a number of wonderful aspects of his art that I hadn't really noticed or grasped before, and I am enthused. I do find it useful as a consumer guide too. The Guardian film reviews are by no means always right, but if I just went to see those with four or five stars I reckon I'd see most of the best films and miss most of the worst. (But no one should use critics in that kind of way, of course, and I don't - but a good piece of criticism tells you a lot about whether the item is your kind of thing too.)

I could talk about this endlessly, but it's too big a subject to take on in a general way.

(I'd mention having been an award-winning critic - but it's not so much a big fish in a small pond scenario as a minnow in a puddle: British comics fandom! I do think I contributed towards upping the standards of criticism in that most underdeveloped of areas (as an editor as well as by writing crit), and I think that is something worthwhile.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 20 February 2003 20:34 (twenty-three years ago)

you punks NEVER connect ANYthing with anything else...
do stir the mud in yr cranium
....

Do you ever meet an ADULT? isn't it time you began to consult one of that exotic genus / Very few specimens in this damnisphere but still not wholly extinct. Not that YOU ever revealed the presence of one TO me.
.....

The lot of you from Eliot
down
appear to suffer from mental paralysis.

(more evidence for ezra pound as proto-vampire-mark-s : "Eliot's low saurian vitality"!!)


"'Only emotion endures.' Surely it is better for me to name over the few beautiful [things] that still ring in my head than for me to search my flat for . . ."
&
"These things have worn smooth in my head and I am not through with them, nor with [x]'s '[a]' nor his other poems in '[b]', though people have told me their flaws. It may be that their content is too much embedded in me for me to look back at the words.

I am almost a different person when I come to take up the argument for [y]'s poems."

Ess Kay (esskay), Thursday, 20 February 2003 21:49 (twenty-three years ago)

This post could use a little more "something"... I don't know... it's just not "there" yet. Could you, ya know, jazz it up a little or something? It's just really, really ... flat. The more I look at it, I hate it. This post sucks. You're fired.

Scaredy Cat, Thursday, 20 February 2003 22:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Eliot quote I've always liked - "The poem that you read may be better than the one I wrote" - criticism empowers creativity!

Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 20 February 2003 23:52 (twenty-three years ago)

i liked the protest sign geeta told me her friends made:

Fuck Bush
Fuck War
Fuck You

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 21 February 2003 00:01 (twenty-three years ago)

"The poem that you read may be better than the one I wrote"

isn't that the essence of punctum?

Aaron A., Friday, 21 February 2003 00:06 (twenty-three years ago)

if he was just called t eliot, it would be toilet backwards

webber (webber), Friday, 21 February 2003 00:57 (twenty-three years ago)


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