reincarnation - serious believer / mega-doubter?

So why not the same thing happening with yer energy? Life seems to be the physical matter and energy that somehow attains consciousness. So if matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed - if the matter goes somewhere, surely the energy gets reused as well? The electrical impulses of yer brain could end up somewhere else. Don't know that you would retain any memory of it... but it would be reused.

Or maybe I've just got a contact buzz off Suzy's doobage...

I don't believe in a soul that has any independence from the physical, so I obviously don't believe in this at all.

Of course, every time I've discussed this with religious people, the issue is either avoided or dismissed as the tone suddenly becomes patronising.

I think a lot of these ideas are interesting as concepts. But I can't honestly buy into them.

Thing about reincarnation that has always got me: if you cannot remember your past life, the fact that some 'essence' of you has been reincarnated is pretty much meaningless.

It's all bobbins, tho'.

Tis bobbins, I do agree.

It's all bobbins, tho'.

-- ChristineSH (amplitud...), March 7th, 2003.

Trace memories are a bit crap though. - Tis bobbins, I do agree.

-- RickyT (boyofbadger...), March 7th, 2003.

The tolerance around here these days is amazing. Does it occur to anyone that pehaps some of us may actually not only have "memories" of a previous life (I'm not going to even try to define the quoted word) but also have had relationship experiences with others who have only reinforced previously buried histories due to shared remembrances of past experiences ? Not to mention the question of observable, objectively identifiable (as opposed to subjective) behavioral issues, such as specific daily behaviors which border on compulsion that have nothing to do with one's present existence (something I struggled with until age 13) - oh excuse me, I forgot how western psych has a zillion labels wih with to explain them, silly me. I am not going to make this thread a 'confessional' though, as I have no intention of either exposing personal information for further ridicule or launching into another sixty-seven page diatribe...

...but for god's sake, I don't think the condescension is necessary. Exactly how could this not turn into a matter of veracity anyway (aside from the insanity/mental health issue): what would you want me, or anyone else in my position to say, that it's either my word against yours? For if all of you maintain your positions, you'd not only be refuting the existence of my experiences as well as my (capa)ability to even have such experiences, but also, by implication, be calling me a liar as well.

And a liar I am not.

It may be true, but to my ego-driven mind it doesn't seem to matter whether I believe it or not.

No no no no DON'T START ME OFF!

And personally I just can't see this as a matter of "belief" anymore either, I'm sorry. If one has been been raped, is it a matter of "belief," as if rape is something possible or impossible? Spiritual experiences "just happen" to one as well, but of course, there are obviously questions of possibility and subjectivity in this regard, so I know I'm using a poor analogy. But a victim of rape stops question whether or not the rape occured, and does not view it as a matter of belief. And if an earth-shattering spiritual experiences happens to you, or if over a number of years you must deal with spiritual occurences that neither you nor those close to you can deny, then it's just a matter of happenstance as well - even though you can keep choosing to lie to yourself about it, in order to conform. I've known others who have made this decision, even though nothing good comes of it. And in regards to what Maria posted above about "enlightenment," please, no one ASKS for this to happen to them, no one is sitting around waiting for it (well most to whom it happens, aren't), and no one with any sense of wisdom starts increasing one's self-aggrandizement if something metaphysical occurs, for all of this only inspires more self-doubt, and often times, more self-loathing, as it's built around the concept of obliterating your current ego and self of self in the first place. Do you honestly think that having such experiences makes your life more easier (knowing what you were to whom, when), or harder, more problematic and more complex? This is the reason for the inborn amnesia anyway...but I'm not going to go there

The questions of Identity and Consciousness with respect to transmigration and karmic debt are really difficult to fathom, but I don't think anyone sitting around this message board has enough knowledge or authority to eternally discard the possibility of eternal life, so excuse me for showing offense at the insufferably "of-course-this-is-rubbish" attitude encountered here, since it's akin to casually damning the most significant of my present life's experiences, in my eyes. Sorry. I'm not aware that this has been demonstrated. If you continue to only accept what your contemporaneous scientific authorities decree, then you'll remain unaware of quite a bit.

*stops question = stops questioning

*earth-shattering spiritual experience, not experienceS

There's no 'must' about it. It's entirely up to me.

Don't you think there's just a *bit* of smugness in your denigrating attitude towards 'contemporaneous scientific authorities'? You can't have it both ways -- you can't slam alleged smugness on one hand and indulge in *blatant* smugness on the other. Hypocrisy: heard of it?

I don't claim to know all the answers. Point to a single instance where I claimed that. No? Then don't put words into my mouth, thanks. You're the one who seems to think they have all the answers.

I'm glad you admitted the comparison with rape was a 'poor analogy.' Someone else might have pointed that out otherwise.

As for not being seen dead saying Islam = crap... wrong. I think all religion is crap, *including* Islam, and a lot of lives are still being lost because of it. I make no distinctions here... *all* religion, period.

This is just my *opinion*.

Christian heaven/hell/purgatory = bobbins
Islamic conceptions of eternal life = bobbins
Reincarnation = bobbins
Ideas about eternal life of the soul in general = bobbins

Happier now?

Far from it, I've never made any such claim, and I've never had any intention of displaying an all-knowing attitude on here; the posters who know me best can attest to that. I had to face a decision, though: I could either sit back and watch a number of posters continue to deny the existence of something I have experienced in my life, in what appeared to be an offensive and insensitive way, or I could attempt to speak out for the other side and defend that viewpoint against charges of bobbinshood. If my defense was unreasonably emotional or angry or came across as foolish, I regret that, but I am not apologetic if I displayed confidence - or smugness - in my own position in return for the all-knowningness and smugness that was displayed here on behalf of the contrary position, just as I refuse to lie to myself about WHAT I EXPERIENCED in order to align my views with contemporaneous scientific authorities. In my opinion, self-denial would be the height of hypocrisy, not a willingness to defend one's unconventional viewpoint.

You can call me an irrationalist, a sensationalist, a heathen, a bobbin, or a dud, just as in a previous age you probaby would have crucified me (for blasphemy, refusal to accept the societal concepts of "reality," et al). In this modern age, instead of the religious authorites doing the crucifying;, it's the scientific "authorities," doing the institutionalizing, and I feel no shame in admitting that yes, in my last year of high school they attempted to institionalize me (insert evil high school guidance couselor issue HERE!), and it did very well become a matter of my word vs. theirs, but I persevered, and somehow made it through, eventually refusing to doubt my own sanity (when theworld is crazy, why call yourself crazy!). Which is why I probably take all of this very personaly, and which is why, again, I should not be discussing spiritual possibilities on such a message board.

Christian heaven/hell/purgatory = bobbins
Islamic conceptions of eternal life = bobbins
Reincarnation = bobbins
Ideas about eternal life of the soul in general = bobbins

It doesn't make me "feel" any better, (I've been feeling FOINE since I had a strawberry fruitbar this morning!), it makes me understand your position better, which is nice. Thank you

But I am confused by the whole matter, so I may be wrong.

So I'm dismissive about the subject. I'd rather be dismissive than disingenuous.

So you think I'd have crucified you in a previous age, huh? Who's showing the characteristics of aggressor in this discussion, do you think? There's some hypocrisy going on *again* here, because you're complaining about supposedly 'offensive' content whilst hurling rather meaningless pejoratives around.

Unless you can provide reasonably indisputable proof of your claims, it remains a difference of opinion, like it or not. That's life.

And I'm okay with that.

(ps for non-UK readers, "bobbins" is a mild and basically friendly word meaning "nonsense" — i watched the scooby doo movie last light, it was bobbins — but i actually really like the idea that a person who believes in a particular bit of "bobbins" is a "bobbin"...)

(incidentally, if past life memory is a fact, it's a disproof of one of the *most* basic tenets of X-ianity)

I have nothing to "prove" to anyone, this is not a trial, and I cannot care any longer if one would call me a liar. I think I should just ignore Christine's posts from now on, since she doesn't seem to be getting it (I never said the posittion of disagreement is "indefensible," but her presentation of it was and remains haughty, arrogant and condecending), but it's okay, I haven't seen her post here much anyways. I do not have a persecution complex, believe me :) I do think that it is quite arrogant, though, to put it in terms of "believing what I experienced," since like I said above, it is not a matter of belief after something actually occurs, and members of my family and two close friends, over the years, would have no doubts in agreeing that something was "occuring" to me at the moment of its happenstance. To put it in such terms ("it is your 'belief' that you experiences something, for such experiences are impossible in 'reality,'") implies that it is just another subjective construction and that the "objective truth," is in the eye of the outside observer, but the Experiencer would put it in oppositional terms: the outside world of the observer is nothing but a subjective construction, and the inner experience is the only inconstant reality, the truth.

See, I had never heard the word 'bobbins" before, I'm not from the UK (obviously). But I HAD heard theword "bobbin." What is a bobbin? I just keep thinking of a button when I hear this, and calling a person a "bobbin," must mean calling them an ugly or deformed button, or an irrationalist, freak button who doesn't match the others and makes poor arguments.

I'm afraid I don't much differentiate one form of mystical belief from another. That is, I can stick it all in one bag and say I really don't buy any of it.

I'm a reformed Catholic. That happened a long time ago. And more recently, I knew a very devout Catholic fairly well and we did manage to have one or two argumentative but reasonably constructive discussions. I rather disliked a lot of his beliefs, and particularly the intensity of them...

I'm actually mildly *interested* in this stuff (i.e. mysticism in general), but in a curious, entirely sceptical way. I'm less thrilled by being *told* I need to believe in it, though.

but-a-boom- but-a-bing - BOBBINS!

I only saw *personal* insults coming from one direction, anyway.

I'm sure that having and expressing an opinion might be seen as 'haughty, arrogant and condescending,' though. Although I have a feeling this is quite dependant on *who* is expressing the opinion.

Duly noted that I should be seen and not heard! Yes sir!

donna we miss you, you must post more (are you still sad?)

Donna, okay. I'm assuming you're not going to cut and paste and make copies of it to leave round on buses and dentists' offices, like Ramosi said he would do to something else I wrote on here, har har

This is the weakest of a collection of weak arguments here. You are asking me to open my mind to these other perspectives while declining to offer any, and indeed to accept your experience as real because some other people agree that it is, while declining to tell us what it is. That's aside from your suggestion, which I would certainly call smug, that all I am doing is accepting what others tell me. I was clearly inviting opposing evidence, and suggesting circumstances which would change my current view - how much more open-minded do you want?

I won't even get into the breathtaking arrogance of deciding that Christine doesn't matter because she doesn't post here much.

This is a waste of time.

We cannot do much about respecting your trauma Vic, if you won't tell us anything about it. I still think the more aggressive and insulting words have come from you. You are directly insulting people, while I think those of us who don't believe in reincarnation are being, at worst, very dismissive about an idea. You have also persistently made up other beliefs for those of us you disagree with, and then acted as if refuting those attributions (such as Rick's post about religions) proves you right.

I am very cynical and sometimes a bit dismissive.

But I don't have a problem with being accused of either.

Those are actually my *good* points, anyway.

The reason reincarnation would be comforting without having past life memories is that you would still exist. I can't imagine the world existing without me there perceiving it...if I was reincarnated, I would still be perceiving it, so I'd still exist (although not as the person I am now).

http://www.hecklerspray.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/chrisfarleylives.jpg
http://www.celebitchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/chrisfarley.jpg

http://www.barrylutz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/pamtonotpam.gif

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/bobbysixer/Page_19.jpg

http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/reincarnation.gif

Of course I don't believe in it. I'd rather come back as a spirit. I would love to do it but how would it work? Do you get a better deal, move up in the world, or is it like the lottery? Would people you despise also have to come back? Actually, I think that might be fair. How much of your "spirit" and consciousness would return? My grandmother lived into her early nineties. I thought she would live longer, but she told me in her last year that she was tired of going on. I guess that if you die of old age, you DO just get tired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOLSt_j9Zns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvHLFjGX0kw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqEoFq40FxU

very uplifting stuff

in my next life i am going to show up as a combination of mark eitzel and the san diego chicken.

I would love to do it but how would it work? Do you get a better deal, move up in the world, or is it like the lottery?

like i've been lucky enough to meet some really great people in this life... so i'm figuring the afterlife bureaucrats are pretty ok and you can talk stuff over with them?

michael newton and some other people have written books detailing where they hypnotize people and get information about people's after-life experiences. much of their findings seem to amount to the school of giving you the freedom to choose your incarnation in order to feed you the particular life lessons that you need for the evolution of your soul or whatever. i don't know if i buy into all of that stuff. like, we can all think of examples of extremely desirable lives here. but from the perspective of eternity and limitless freedom, i guess i don't know; maybe that could work. basically as long as i have unlimited money sex and power the next time around i won't cause too much of a stir.

we can all think of examples of extremely desirable lives here.

supposed to read "undesirable lives"

but one the themes in michael newton's books implies that people sometimes choose paris hilton-like incarnations to y'know, relax and party and stretch out in the physical realms for a few lifetimes or whatever before moving onto more rigorous curricula

see mark eitzel meets san diego chicken

or ms pacman meets frankie beverly

I doubt I would ever consider myself "spiritual" and find the term mostly sickening but man some of the early posts in this thread are some of the most annoying examples of modern, post-Dawkins atheism in all of its useless forms.

I'm an atheist but I find reincarnation much easier to believe than any afterlife myth

I'm not a serious believer in reincarnation. I only believe insofar as it provides an apt allegory for the dissolution after death into one's irreducible physical elements, one's "dust" to put it in biblical terms, which elements are then reused endlessly in the service of new life.

Unfortunately, as I perceive it, any soul or spirit capable of remaining intact after the physical dissolution of the body or of moving unaltered to a newer body couldn't be physical in any known sense or in any known form. If it is not physical, and has no energy & no mass, then it cannot have any point of contact with the physical body. So it could not change anything physical or be changed by anything physical. Which kind of defeats the idea of one's successive lives contributing to the spirit's growth or change. There'd be no imaginable mechanism for it.

otoh, if reincarnation exists only as an imaginary process, then one need not imagine the exact mechanism, but can elide that piece of it and just imagine the whole to be true without inquiring about the pesky hidden details. Which process yields a wholly satisfying belief for those who are true believers.

can you get reincarnated as a doodie

and to think my whole life has lead up to this moment

I had a Slayer moment one time driving my car for my delivery job screaming "I will be reBORNNNNNN" -- to my mind it was qualified thus: I will be reborn *inside this song* each time someone listening to it feels the same way I do right now -- but at base, the effect was to make me not fear death

...gosh I really hope that's the first time I've told that story itt

https://www.amazon.com/Didnt-Start-You-Inherited-Family/dp/1101980362

Depression. Anxiety. Chronic Pain. Phobias. Obsessive thoughts. The evidence is compelling: the roots of these difficulties may not reside in our immediate life experience or in chemical imbalances in our brains—but in the lives of our parents, grandparents, and even great-grandparents. The latest scientific research, now making headlines, supports what many have long intuited—that traumatic experience can be passed down through generations.

So we got this book in the store I work in. The science behind this seems flimsy but I don't know much about "epigentics." The basic idea -- that we carry our ancestors traumas -- makes a kind of emotional sense for me, but maybe it's a bridge too far to say that these things reside in our DNA.

Transgenerational epigenetics is quite real. Parts of DNA are silenced during life by methylation and histone deacetylation, and new DNA is added via microDNAs. For the most part, this has been investigated with respect to early life (including in utero) environment and later life risks, but some animal studies have found transgenerational effects. These have been a bombshell in science over the past decade, as they resemble the "heresy" of Lamarckian inheritance. If you're curious, these are the sorts of studies that have rocked science:

Chang et al, 2006. [Transgenerational epigenetic imprinting of the male germline by endocrine disruptor exposure during gonadal sex determination](http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/en.2006-0987). Endocrinology, 147(12), pp.5524-5541.
Crews et al, 2007. Transgenerational epigenetic imprints on mate preference. PNAS, 104(14), pp.5942-5946.
Skinner et al, 2008. Transgenerational epigenetic programming of the brain transcriptome and anxiety behavior. PloS one, 3(11), p.e3745.
Massiera et al, 2010. A Western-like fat diet is sufficient to induce a gradual enhancement in fat mass over generations. J Lipid Res, 51(8), pp.2352-2361.
Marczylo et al, 2012. Smoking induces differential miRNA expression in human spermatozoa: a potential transgenerational epigenetic concern?. Epigenetics, 7(5), pp.432-439.
Skinner et al, 2013. Ancestral DDT exposure promotes epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of obesity. BMC med, 11(1), p.228.
Tracey et al, 2013. Hydrocarbons (jet fuel JP-8) induce epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of obesity, reproductive disease and sperm epimutations. Repro Tox, 36, pp.104-116.
Manikkam et al, 2014. Pesticide methoxychlor promotes the epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of adult-onset disease through the female germline. PloS one, 9(7), p.e102091.
Manikkam et al, 2013. Plastics derived endocrine disruptors (BPA, DEHP and DBP) induce epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of obesity, reproductive disease and sperm epimutations. PloS one, 8(1), p.e55387.
Rodgers et al, 2015. Transgenerational epigenetic programming via sperm microRNA recapitulates effects of paternal stress. PNAS, 112(44), pp.13699-13704.

Which just scratches the surface. So yeah, "sins of the father" are a thing in nature.

Awesome! Thanks Sanpaku. I had no idea about any of this until I read the synopsis for this book.

Which of course isn't to say that that book isn't 90% BS. There's really no (ethical or timely) way of confirming these sorts of metabolism and stress response effects in humans. OTOH, rodents are a pretty good model of many parts of human physiology, so maybe, in your grandchildren's day, this field will result in some CRISPR RNAi interventions to correct the traumas that you inflicted on your unborn gametes.

why would you want to take all the fun out of phenotypic expression

Whether you believe in it or not, there are geopolitical consequences.

https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/implications-of-dalai-lama-identifying-new-head-of-tibetan-buddhism-in-mongolia/