Is 'Indie' just another word for 'loser'?

This is the best argument I've ever seen in history, ever, oh my god. I'm going to phrase everything I say in the context of whether or not Whitesnake would do it. WWWD?

and Mick Moody was a founding member!

Wow, good one. Do you write your own material?

Also: Popjustice+crank=BAD

Okay, I just looked at the release dates and now I understand; "Loser" came out in the middle of my junior year and "Where It's At" came out in the middle of my senior year; I just slid the release dates back 6 months in my mind. NOT THAT THIS MATTERS.

Japan is the world centre of twee, and all indie losers end up here.

Japan is twee because there's no aggression in art or public life here.

Japan is indie because they try to stay independent by closing the country to foreigners from time to time (ie up until 1864). And they're an island: all islands (Japan, Britain) have a soft spot for 'indie'. Britain is the indie band of Europe, refusing to sign up to the ECU because it sounds too much like EMI.

Japan is a loser because it's having a long recession right now. But 'every loser wins', and Japan has the indie resources (self-reliance, hard work, integrity, experimentalism, risk-taking) to go mainstream again -- like it did in the 80s, when it became the world's second-richest country.

What's more, it might be precisely this thing you call 'twee' that is Japan's hidden weapon. A world scarred and scared by terrorism may well want 'twee' products, ie stuff completely lacking in aggression, and featuring a lot of pink and white and faux fluff. Then again, terrorism and imperialism may make us all want to internalise aggression and appear hard and tough and deadly, so it could go either way. (They can always sell samurai movies, bukkake vids and 'Battle Royale' in that case. They can do 'deadly'.)

I admit to having engaged in too few discussions with you to know one way or another if I agree or disagree more frequently with you, Momus. I really only have the experience of the trucker hat thread, which I would like to put behind me for plenty of reasons other than my direct responses to your posts.

That said, I'm feeling some love for your comment above. The only thing I disagree about is that twee is the style for indie losers... I've seen indie losers also appear to be winning at CMJ festivals in the early 90s, and they regularly have the illusion of winning at shows in small venues across the globe. I do think indie losers is a slightly broader group, but then I haven't thought a huge amount about it. Do you think the people I call indie losers are headed for Japan in the end? Your definition seems narrower than mine. Maybe I've not caught your humor somewhere.

Re: your last paragraph, I've spent a decent amount of time thinking about this, and I wonder what your (and ILE's) thoughts are regarding just how completely twee is lacking in aggression. I'm not as familiar with it as it manifests itself in Japan, but I've always been a fan of stuff that seems to put up two faces at the same time, particularly stuff that sounds clever, comic or silly on the surface but is as direct, grim and dark as it gets not too far underneath. Can that still be called "twee?" Talulah Gosh/Heavenly is pretty solidly considered a twee band, even a flagship, but the lyrics are pretty often cynical, grim, sad, scary or even disturbing. How many different twees are there? What's the true twee?

Yeh, Amelia Fletcher's from the UK, but The Nelories can be pretty dark too. Are they a weird exception? I haven't listened to enough music from Japan to know. (Assume I've heard the stuff that made it's way to the US large indie labels... Pizzicato 5, Kahimi Karie, Cornelius, etc.)

Maybe that's another thread...

Some of the indie losers would be in their own element on that hypothetical thread too, to be sure. But then you get into discussions about how much indie loser has crossbred with intellectual, collector and similar species, why, etc.

I have spotted the only time Momus has ever quoted Nick Berry, what is my prize?

Martin, the point about indie as the surface sheen for darkness is well taken. It's interesting you mention the Nelories -- I got into a correspondence with one of them and it turned out that the predominant element in her psyche was a fascination with the idea of being murdered slowly and horribly, preferably with a knife in the bath. (And the other one was into Gombrowicz and Bataille.)

THATS WHY WE BEAT THEM FAGGOT LOSERS UP

RAWWWWK ON!!