Support the Troops!!!!

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― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

mind you, morale must be pret-ty fucking bad for people to just completely disregard the ucmj, chain of command, etc. on national tv, and surely some of these people were active duty circa the clinton impeachment (hence, no way they can claim ignorance), but still goddamn.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

and yeah, low morale, whatta shock, but still goddamn.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

and I hardly want a withdrawal of us troops from iraq cuz good lord that'd be a disaster, but still goddamn.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

goddamn I can't wait to see the rightwing blogosphere react/spin this (betcha "Peter Jennings is Canadian" comes into play har har).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

ohmigod this is beautiful.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

That's really sad. George Bush to troops: Fuck ya'all niggaz.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

troops to Bush: nah dawg - FUCK YOU

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Well the problem is that yeah, that's what's going down, except the troops really can't DO anything but say that whereas George Bush is like, "Oh yeah? Muthafuckas you stay your ass in the Middle East for another six months, how you like them apples?" for like no reason besides he's bored today.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

As Blount notes, I'm curious what the Idiot Commentator Wing (O'Reilly, Coulter, etc.) has to say about this. Post some prime examples here, please!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Coulter will just call for them to be shot.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Ally the troops can't really say that either (and to be honest I'm all in favor of that really - for examples of what happens when you get a political, vocal, antagonistic to civilian authority military look at nearly every unstable democracy ever, alas).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

that said, plenty of Army brass are inwardly smiling at the thoughts of Rummy's reaction to this.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Peter Jennings isn't Canadian anymore. Well, he has dual citizenship as of last week.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Coulter will just call for them to be shot.

I'd LOVE her to say that. It would be a beautiful final nail in the coffin.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, they can't but they can but that's what I meant about the whole George Bush thing--you can say it, the words can come out of your mouth, but the consequences aren't really a positive thing.

(hstencil to thread to point out that they signed up for this, etc)

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Woah, dude, I'm having major deja vu here!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

They signed up to carry out orders by somebody they thought knew what they were doing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, Ned, I know.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I was more pre-empting Stence. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

how'd I miss that shit?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Coulter can't be killed. It's simply not possible.

No matter what bizarre, outlandish statements she makes, no matter how many lies and mistruths she puts in her books, no matter how fucking insane she becomes - she'll always have that right-wing 20% of the marketplace of ideas slavishly devoted to her.

Reasonably attractive blonde woman who makes neo-cons wet = job for life, unless she pisses it away by becoming pro-choice or something.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Blount, you wisely thought that the Army was second class compared to the Navy and ignored the thread. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Millar so fucking (predictably) otm on that thread

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

ha - I probably did see "Army" and just moved right along

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

this shit is literally why you don't join the Army, but join the Navy instead

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

that and having an ounce of pride

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

>They signed up to carry out orders by somebody they thought knew what they were doing.

And the soldiers were pretty naive to think that all they had to do was take Baghdad and the job would be over and they would be sent home. But Rummy et al is still an asshole for telling them that they were going home soon, nevermind that the whole war was a bad idea.

― fletrejet, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I am surprised there hasn't been a "The post-war is looking just as bad as everyone predicted" thread yet, considering the large number of pre-war threads.

― fletrejet, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Creating a New Roman Empire without studying the Old Roman Empire: Classic Or Dud?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris Barrus to thread, he pretty much called all this some months back.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"Meanwhile, in North Korea, the possible 'second-front' in America's attempt to be 'Rome' in the next Bible" - the Daily Show

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

fletrejet did you serve? can you tell me standard deployment rotations for say any other campaign in the past twenty years? there's no naivete here

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't made up my idea about Plan 5030 (well, not completely made up my mind) or whether the leak is just a bluff

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Details?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

it's vaguely a 'maybe we can bluff a revolution in north korea thing', hold on a sec

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

>can you tell me standard deployment rotations for say any other campaign in the past twenty years?

Has there ever been a campaign in the last 20 years of this size and length? And right now we have maybe half of the troops we should have in Iraq.

What is "Plan 5030"?

― fletrejet, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

ok, here's a opinion piece that has a good descrip. (prepare to freak)(and actually I have made up my mind - pro-contain nutcases, anti-engage, kinda sorta generally, anyhow don't like "Plan 5030")

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

and yeah, we need hella more troops in Iraq, like maybe even as many as we had in Gulf War I (go figure), but that wouldn't confirm the Rumsfeld doctrine so don't hold your breath.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

yall freaking out over Plan 5030 yet?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I figure I'd need to know China's approaches more before I start panicking.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Troops, make sure to send in your absentee ballots!!

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I really don't know why the US doesn't just let China "handle" North Korea (they want a North Korean nuclear state even less than we do) but I guess it doesn't fit into neo-con wet dreams.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, Jesus Christ bleeding in a fucking ditch.

The purpose of these actions would be to strain the North Korean military's scarce resources and to sow enough confusion among its officers that they might turn against Kim's regime.

Does anyone else's heart sink into their gut when they read this? Is this our one war plan? Given the opportunity, any soldier will turn against his own government, right? Because in their little yellow hearts, they know they'd rather be Americans.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, this was their theory in Iraq and look how successful it's been!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's more a case of thinking they'll go 'fuck this' and overthrow Kim Jong-Il. and it's not our "one" war plan, though if Rummy's pushing it it might as well be. meanwhile I started this.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone else's heart sink into their gut when they read this? Is this our one war plan?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...fear and surprise. TWO chief weapons--fear, surprise...and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope! Um, I'll come in again...

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

See, at least that lot actually got in the place, captured people and took them to a dungeon! Although I suppose we've got Camp X-Ray.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

and it's not our "one" war plan, though if Rummy's pushing it it might as well be.

I meant that that was our Iraq plan too. Just to clarify.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

So, is the same thing possibly going on in Afghanistan, but the media just isn't caring about it. (It's funny how people forgot that Osama Bin Laden is still unaccounted for, much less Afghanistan.)

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Shh, DB, hush now. You reduce our sense of national focus.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

haha I called it (sorta) - Drudge has a link to a profile of the guy who filed the story; headline: "ABC Reporter Who Filed Troops Complaint Story is Canadian"

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I luv Drudge btw, but the spin angle (for now) has been set on "frostback"

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Even funnier (and more telling?) is that the headline's focus is that he's Canadian rather than he's gay, which you think would be manna from heaven for Certain Rightward Types.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

in a weird way, a sign of progress

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

(cept for the Matt Drudge closetcase rumours)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

from the Int'l Herald Tribune/NYTimes

— A top United States general said today that American troops in Iraq were now facing a "classical guerrilla-type campaign" — the sort of phrase Bush administration officials have so far avoided — and he added that American troops should be prepared for duty tours of perhaps a year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/16/international/worldspecial/16CND-POLI.html?hp

― H (Heruy), Thursday, 17 July 2003 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris Barrus to thread, he pretty much called all this some months back.

*sigh* Sadly I seem to be proven right in this case.

Meanwhile, Bush II pre-emptively screws over the future Iraq War veterans.

― Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 17 July 2003 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.pixunlimited.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2003/07/16/2bell.jpg

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 17 July 2003 06:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard on the news this morning that the soldiers that spoke with ABC are likely to be reprimanded.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

erm, like even us soldiers have y'know families and relatives and loved ones and friends back home

i can't remember the thread i got into a fight w.who abt the bush admin's plans for world domination being incomprehensible in their lack of actual real content, logistics-wise and finance-wise: it z like a year ago

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

That was every thread ever about Bush.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

haha ok well in that case TOLD YOU SO

at the moment i can't tell if the bbc/newsnight are over-egging the washington-in-turmoil stuff merely so as to stick it to blair even more ((re the "sexing up" battle), or tentatively underplaying it as per usual

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Certain Rightward Types.

I read "Rightward" as "Rightwad," like Ned was coining a neologism -- sounds like "tightwad," acts like "fuckwad."

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 17 July 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

"I used to want to help these people," said Pfc. Eric Rattler, "but now I don't really care about them anymore. I've seen so much, you know, little kids throwing rocks at you. Once you pacify an area, it seems like the area you just came from turns bad again. I'd like this country to be all right, but I don't care anymore."

― faggotry (faggotry), Thursday, 17 July 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

mark it's a huge issue on this side of the pond as well.

would that the scene in that cartoon have been real, with george bush positioned conveniently within the sights of a chagrined soldier.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

mark i don't think bush has "plans" so much as long-term goals and fluid ideological pick & disgard w/r/t justifications.

i just read AJP Taylor's "Origins of WWII" and its fairly instructive for the present moment I think (hamfisted bush/hitler comparisons that this might be read as implying aside)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

well then what DO you mean sterling? by it being instructive that is.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

haha amateurist you shouldn't have said that*

* "on this s*de of the p*nd"

it is the secret mark-infuriating phrase that makes him rrrarrgh like hulk

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

read it yourself. (or alternately just read the previous sentence of the post!!!!)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

trans: Sterling hasn't done his homework. ;)

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the problem with focusing exclusively on "did they have WMD or not" is it buys the administration's argument that IF Saddam had stuff, whatever it was, a few chemical trucks or a whole arsenal of nukes, it justified US actions—we think we are hammering the war-dogs but in fact we are playing their game

just listen how confident they all sound - "we WILL find weapons of mass destruction"

"we WILL find that cocaine in your dashboard"

they will find what they want to find, and where are our "arguments" then?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

sterling i didn't realize your second sentence followed from the first, sorry.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

so app. the fact that the reporter on the story was gay and Canadian was sent to Drudge by the White House. The WH is denying any knowledge of this but don't see why Drudge would make it up. Who are these idjits?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8158-2003Jul17.html

― H (Heruy), Friday, 18 July 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

as far as the angst towards rummy goes mentioned upthread. it, i dunno;
it boggles my mind he was still respected (at least to a degree) considering his past chummy-ness with saddam and the iraqi regime. i mean – people are surprised he's a weasle¿

― dyson (dyson), Friday, 18 July 2003 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

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