Terror Sweepstakes

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3106559.stm

Has there been a thread about this which I've missed? Blimey.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i wager ten quagons on Tooting Broadway

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Was just about to post this!

US administration's faith in the market taken to the logical extreme?

RickyT (RickyT), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

That nutty John Poindexter! He's probably wandering around his office on the phone saying "What?" to various outraged callers.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

The maximum payoff per future is $1. Who wants to bet on how long it will take before they're selling for more than that?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This is morbid and creepy as hell but I do have a bit of faith in the whole intelligence of the group being better than the intelligence of the individual thing. Unfortunately it seems like this market could be gamed. :(

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

There's an element of Judge Dredd style lunacy to it which is sort of appealing. And you can't deny that it's a radical approach to intelligence gathering. Even so, ew.

(Stevem what do you know about the armed struggle in Tooting Broadway??)

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the cheating major to thread!!

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Just when I thought the government was already nuts. So, the concept is what? "You're here, and as long as you've nowt else to do with your life, why not place bets on it?" Wonderfully amusing:<

Pity is, this concept will prolly take off like a shot.

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Stevem what do you know about the armed struggle in Tooting Broadway??)

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"How would you feel if you were the King of Jordan and you learned that the US Defence Department was taking bets on your being overthrown within a year?"

Best hypothetical question evah!

smee (smee), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe they're hoping that they'll get Haddam Sussein as a member, and trace his credit card?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

wtf andrew, are you afraid he's going to google his name here and put you in the rape room?

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I would have launched those weapons dammit but I was reading the Trucker Hats thread.

Saddam (Groke), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I'm just saying that he won't be using his _real_ name. He's not stupid, you know.

(okay, now I'm afraid)

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

The wires are reporting that this thing is going to be abandoned.

Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Another 'great' Poindexter idea collapses, world not shocked.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

"And now we've reached the part on the Las Vegas tour where we witness the grandest casino of all - THE PENTAGON!"

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Never mind the ongoing construction. We're only building a new Elvis monument...

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Unfortunately it seems like this market could be gamed.

Well, yeah. Like all markets. Which kind of goes to the point -- the current American breed of conservatism has made a mystical belief system out of Capitalism. Instead of seeing markets and competition as a useful and productive way to organize some sectors of the economy, they think it's magic. Some of them are just opportunists grabbing what they can, of course, but others are actual zealots who think that if you could just find a way to let the Market do everything, we would achieve paradise on earth. They're the last Utopians standing, basically; they misread and misunderstood the Soviet collapse and took it as a sign from God that Capitalism was the answer to everything.

The irony (or one of many ironies) is that their faith (as it is wont to do) blinds them to how capitalism and markets actually work -- i.e. through human actions and interactions. The idea that markets inevitably invite manipulation and competition can easily lead to cheating is anathema to them; to imply that the Market is subject to human whims is de facto to deny its divinity. It's no coincidence that a lot of these people are also evangelical Christians. Their entire conception of the world is based on magic. I don't know if Poindexter is actually one of them or a more interesting kind of nutcase, but either way, he's clearly cracked. The sad thing is, all of this does draw (in a very simplistic and wrongheaded way) on various strands of complexity and network theory, which are fascinating fields that could suffer by association with this kind of hoodoo.

JesseFox (JesseFox), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

From the NYT:

Pentagon Prepares a Futures Market on Terror Attacks
By CARL HULSE

ASHINGTON, July 28 — The Pentagon office that proposed spying electronically on Americans to monitor potential terrorists has a new experiment. It is an online futures trading market, disclosed today by critics, in which anonymous speculators would bet on forecasting terrorist attacks, assassinations and coups.

Advertisement

Traders bullish on a biological attack on Israel or bearish on the chances of a North Korean missile strike would have the opportunity to bet on the likelihood of such events on a new Internet site established by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

The Pentagon called its latest idea a new way of predicting events and part of its search for the "broadest possible set of new ways to prevent terrorist attacks." Two Democratic senators who reported the plan called it morally repugnant and grotesque. The senators said the program fell under the control of Adm. John M. Poindexter, President Ronald Reagan's national security adviser.

One of the two senators, Byron L. Dorgan of North Dakota, said the idea seemed so preposterous that he had trouble persuading people it was not a hoax. "Can you imagine," Mr. Dorgan asked, "if another country set up a betting parlor so that people could go in — and is sponsored by the government itself — people could go in and bet on the assassination of an American political figure?"

After Mr. Dorgan and his fellow critic, Ron Wyden of Oregon, spoke out, the Pentagon sought to play down the importance of a program for which the Bush administration has sought $8 million through 2005. The White House also altered the Web site so that the potential events to be considered by the market that were visible earlier in the day at www.policyanalysismarket.org could no longer be seen.

But by that time, Republican officials in the Senate were privately shaking their heads over the planned trading. One top aide said he hoped that the Pentagon had a good explanation for it.

The Pentagon, in defending the program, said such futures trading had proven effective in predicting other events like oil prices, elections and movie ticket sales.

"Research indicates that markets are extremely efficient, effective and timely aggregators of dispersed and even hidden information," the Defense Department said in a statement. "Futures markets have proven themselves to be good at predicting such things as elections results; they are often better than expert opinions."

According to descriptions given to Congress, available at the Web site and provided by the two senators, traders who register would deposit money into an account similar to a stock account and win or lose money based on predicting events.

"For instance," Mr. Wyden said, "you may think early on that Prime Minister X is going to be assassinated. So you buy the futures contracts for 5 cents each. As more people begin to think the person's going to be assassinated, the cost of the contract could go up, to 50 cents.

"The payoff if he's assassinated is $1 per future. So if it comes to pass, and those who bought at 5 cents make 95 cents. Those who bought at 50 cents make 50 cents."

The senators also suggested that terrorists could participate because the traders' identities will be unknown.

"This appears to encourage terrorists to participate, either to profit from their terrorist activities or to bet against them in order to mislead U.S. intelligence authorities," they said in a letter to Admiral Poindexter, the director of the Terrorism Information Awareness Office, which the opponents said had developed the idea.

The initiative, called the Policy Analysis Market, is to begin registering up to 1,000 traders on Friday. It is the latest problem for the advanced projects agency, or Darpa, a Pentagon unit that has run into controversy for the Terrorism Information Office. Admiral Poindexter once described a sweeping electronic surveillance plan as a way of forestalling terrorism by tapping into computer databases to collect medical, travel, credit and financial records.

Worried about the reach of the program, Congress this year prohibited what was called the Total Information Awareness program from being used against Americans. Its name was changed to the Terrorism Information Awareness program.

This month, the Senate agreed to block all spending on the program. The House did not. Mr. Wyden said he hoped that the new disclosure about the trading program would be the death blow for Admiral Poindexter's plan.

The Pentagon did not provide details of the program like how much money participants would have to deposit in accounts. Trading is to begin on Oct. 1, with the number of participants initially limited to 1,000 and possibly expanding to 10,000 by Jan. 1.

"Involvement in this group prediction process should prove engaging and may prove profitable," the Web site said.

The overview of the plan said the market would focus on the economic, civil and military futures of Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Turkey and the consequences of United States involvement with those nations. The creators of the market envision other trappings of existing markets like derivatives.

In a statement, Darpa said the trading idea was "currently a small research program that faces a number of major technical challenges and uncertainties."

"Chief among these," the agency said, "are: Can the market survive and will people continue to participate when U.S. authorities use it to prevent terrorist attacks? Can futures markets be manipulated by adversaries?"

Mr. Dorgan and Mr. Wyden called for an immediate end to the project and said they would use its existence to justify cutting off financial support for the overall effort. In the letter to Admiral Poindexter, they called the initiative a "wasteful and absurd" use of tax dollars.

"The American people want the federal government to use its resources enhancing our security, not gambling on it," the letter said.

amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Was this article front-paged? I found it on the WWW, buried beneath a much shorter AP article that announced the program had been decisively cut off just hours after the earlier story broke.

amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha! The article Tom linked to has been totally rewritten into the past tense!

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

It was in the papers this morning, NOT in past tense.

Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

News stories on-line updated more rapidly than newspapers in print shockah.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Kerry: good, I want this to blow up in their faces.

amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Will Poindexter get the axe?

amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

In his face?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Too messy; blood won't come out of the silk tie, after all.

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Like Poindexter has blood!

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, a sodium-based cooling system, perhaps.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw but come on! I'm sure the families of those who DIED IN THE PENTAGON DURING FUCKING 9/11 would have been able to recoup some of their losses playing the wacky, lucky wheel of terror!

donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously, I almost puked shaking my head so much at this story this morning.

donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

This idea actually surfaced in John Brunner's "Shockwave Rider", written in the mid-seventies.

Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

This all reminds me of "Smash TV!", the video game, for some reason.

donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I loved Smash TV! I just wish I hadn't sucked at it.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Sucking builds character....and yet, motivates you to practice til you kick ass.

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"Big money! Big prizes! I love it"

Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and Terry Gilliam to thread

Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

This thing was so absurd, I thought I must be reading the Onion.

Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish I had been reading the Onion.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 29 July 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

philip k dick is alive and well and running the pentagon

Truck Turner, Tuesday, 29 July 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Mornington Crescent.

Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

trudat

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 31 July 2003 08:22 (twenty-two years ago)

truDAT, rather

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 31 July 2003 08:22 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: collective wisdom of analysts vs. individual wisdom of a couple of grandstanding politicians

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 31 July 2003 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ie. (tying it into the debate at large) career cia/fbi/pentagon vs. team neo-con

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 31 July 2003 08:28 (twenty-two years ago)

95% of ilx = weekly standard editorial board shockah

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 31 July 2003 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Reading that link is the most staring-into-the-face-of-insanity thing I've done this year. Is all of Slate that mad?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 31 July 2003 08:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Terror betting - can't see how it would work, isn't it a bit easy to 'fix'?

dave q, Thursday, 31 July 2003 09:33 (twenty-two years ago)

That's surely the idea - bunch of big bets from people with Middle Eastern names reckoning that Sears Tower will be bombed on Thursday, the CIA will be round for a gentle word.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 31 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

the CIA will be round for a gentle word

Which means a commando raid in the middle of the night, and "disappearing" for about 10 years.

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Thursday, 31 July 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)


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