(Also, there doesn't appear to be a category on ILX for Religion. That's weird.)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)
― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)
― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)
Job: Why is God so mean to me? I am such a good guy!Friends: God is mean to bad guys and good to good guys. You should repent. But, anyway, if you were REALLY REALLY bad, he would just kill you in your sleep.Job: But I'm good! And plus, bad guys get away with all sorts of stuff.
― Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)
(fill in the blank) begat (fill in the blank).repeat ad nauseum
When I was little, my uncle gave me a comic strip bible. It was awesome. I wish I still had it. :(
― Sarah Mclusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)
If God had a name, what would it beAnd would you call it to His faceIf you were faced with Him in all His gloryWhat would you ask if you had just one questionYeah, yeah, God is greatYeah, yeah, God is goodYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeahWhat if God was one of usJust a slob like one of usJust a stranger on the busTrying to make His way homeIf God had a face, what would it look likeAnd would you want to seeIf seeing meant that you would have to believeIn things like Heaven and in Jesus and the SaintsAnd all the Prophets and...Yeah, yeah, God is greatYeah, yeah, God is goodYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
― Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)
I wonder if that would make me go to hell. It seems worse than anything Job did.
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)
I wonder what Ozzy Osbourne would say about God or Job. :-)
― Jasmine U. (Jasmine U.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)
It's called 'Faith'. I don't know which hippy is responsible.
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)
hmmm... I confuse myself once again.
― Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)
― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― kephm, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)
"Testing your faith" is, I'm pretty sure, a more modern concept than would apply to Job, but that's probably a good description of how the text is used now. I wish it hadn't been so long since I read Jack Miles's God: a Biography, which is pretty much the best overview of "the character of God" in the OT/Tanakh. But what I remember of what he said, combined with the way I look at things from other sources, the book is most likely an oral legend -- possibly not originally about Jehovah, but one of the Elohim (i.e., I don't remember which form of "God" the book is written about) -- rewritten for the monotheistic or henotheistic crowd. It's an artifact of the "angry, vengeful, unknowable God," fairly at odds with the God of love and kittens and not-so-much-of-the-smiting.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)
I think a good part of the importance of the story to the monotheists would be both the unknowability of God and the idea that you worship God even if he doesn't give you anything -- it makes less sense to stress this point in an already monotheistic community, but in the context of the struggle between the monotheists and the traditional polytheists within the Hebrew communities, it's critical. "Why should we worship that God? He's never given us anything!" "Well, yes, but you should worship him anyway. He's wicked tough."
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)
― NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)
(xp: the time travel thing I meant)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)
But for instance --
If you travel into the past, is it or is it not to pray for the intercession of saints who have not yet been canonized in the local time period?
Which church doctrines are you bound by, those of the local time or those of your native time? (sub: if you travel back to before Christ, are you bound by laws of ritual cleanliness?)
Is changing the past the fulfillment or betrayal of God's Plan (sub: is it even possible to "betray" God's plan -- paging all the free-will/predestination theorists, you're wanted on line 2)?
To what extent should ethics consider the indirect consequences of actions done in the past?
And etc. I've been working on it here and there on the side, but between the frivolity and the reliance on Catholic writers, I think it'd be marketable to absolutely no one (unless I expanded it to a book; "What does the Church say about cloning/time travel/the possibility of sufficiently-advanced robots having a soul if a soul is an emergent property.")
It is frivolous, but by the same token it addresses a lot of doctrinal issues in terms of how and when prescriptive behavioral doctrine becomes binding.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)
One one level, there is the "testing your faith--if you keep it, you will be rewarded" which is really a "Don't give up" message. On another level it explains "why bad things happen to good people". Answer: "No reason that you can control. Not your fault, just get through it." Another nice message from Job is hope: "If you stick it out, things can get better through forces that are just as beyond your control as the forces that made things go bad".
Taken as a whole, I think Job is a rather Zen book.
― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)
Really, though, Job's story has proven to be utter and complete solace to me over the last couple of weeks. The parallels between his trials and challenges and my trials and challenges have comforted me, especially knowing what happens to him when he keeps his faith. I also sorta understand some of the reasoning behind keeping one's faith up even through the roughest of times, because I felt this wonderful sense of calming and "refuge from the harsh glare of the outside world" whenever I would enter into my daily prayer (yes, I pray once a day) or go to Sunday Mass. I still do draw tremendous amounts of strength and peace from praying and being religious (or if you'd prefer, being spiritual).
Sure, I still have stressors in my life. Sure, life isn't a walk in the park. But life has become a little bit sweeter and a lot more wonderful and precious and amazing. That's what I feel.
― Just Deanna (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)
(That isn't meant to be dismissive of any of the various interpretations; it's just a good example of interpretive drift.)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― Mike Hanle y (mike), Thursday, 31 July 2003 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)
― Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 31 July 2003 02:06 (twenty-two years ago)