The Book of Job

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Mentioned at least 3 times, so here's the thread. Have at it. You can read it online starting here.

(Also, there doesn't appear to be a category on ILX for Religion. That's weird.)

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I once wrote about Job's Wife. She is another of those biblical females who seems a hundred time more interesting then the male lead.

bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Steve.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

OK. This is one of those things that just amazed me when I started studying religion in college because I wasn't brought up to be religious, only went to church occasionally on Easter and Christmas, and I'd never really read the Bible. So then I start reading it for classes and find odd stuff I didn't know about, like Job, where you basically learn that God is a horrible horrible bastard and that he's also an idiot because Satan can fool him. God can be fooled. That's great. This is admittedly a pretty facile and literal interpretation though.
I guess the purpose is to provide solace to people who run into hard times, to say God is testing your faith and that you should just trust in Him. I'm probably a spoiled brat, but I'm sorry, I just can't believe in this kind of God.

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

What I take from it is that it bends the dichotomy of God = good; Satan = bad. Meaning when something great happens to you, that's God. When something shitty happens, that's God too. And you basically don't get any say in it nor ability to understand the reasoning behind it. (And yeah, that Job's fate is basically a whole pissing contest between Satan and God, is a bit amusing.) (Job's wife meanwhile, gives God a nice 'fuck you' after he kills her ten children which seems a pretty reasonable response.)

bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

my last girlfriend : me :: God : Job

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I just read the first 37 chapters. Could anyone sum up the end for me? Most of it just seemed to be like this:

Job: Why is God so mean to me? I am such a good guy!
Friends: God is mean to bad guys and good to good guys. You should repent. But, anyway, if you were REALLY REALLY bad, he would just kill you in your sleep.
Job: But I'm good! And plus, bad guys get away with all sorts of stuff.

Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Sarah please summarise Numbers too, thanks.

Sam (chirombo), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't that the BEGAT book?

(fill in the blank) begat (fill in the blank).
repeat ad nauseum

When I was little, my uncle gave me a comic strip bible. It was awesome. I wish I still had it. :(

Sarah Mclusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, that story is way too long, Sarah is right. Anyway, based on what everyone else said, I think it's about how God is one of us, like Joan Osbourne said.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Just a fool like one of us?

Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

A spiteful, catty, Sex in the City bitch like one of us.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Just a wanna be rockstar that loves cats like one of us.

If God had a name, what would it be
And would you call it to His face
If you were faced with Him in all His glory
What would you ask if you had just one question
Yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make His way home
If God had a face, what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like Heaven and in Jesus and the Saints
And all the Prophets and...
Yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I would call God "Beyotch" based on this story.

I wonder if that would make me go to hell. It seems worse than anything Job did.

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, based on what everyone else said, I think it's about how God is one of us, like Joan Osbourne said.

I wonder what Ozzy Osbourne would say about God or Job. :-)

Jasmine U. (Jasmine U.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I believe he'd just yell "SHARON".

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Job was apparently pretty egocentric. He's all like, "I'm SO good!" Maybe that's why god punished him.

Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(Also, there doesn't appear to be a category on ILX for Religion. That's weird.)

It's called 'Faith'. I don't know which hippy is responsible.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Best theology discussion in ages.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Faith and religion definitely aren't the same thing. Nick was a religion major in college but I wouldn't say he's religious.

Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

But, uh, he is faithful TO ME...

hmmm... I confuse myself once again.

Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I thought that was about Faith Hill though?

Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, Sarah. That's where religion threads go, anyway. Having separate 'Faith' and 'Religion' categories would be even more mental.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I never knew who created that category, I assumed it was N.

Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

It was not me, it was the other three.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, N. I am mental.

Sarah McLUsky (coco), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

the bible wasn't written in english, so it lost plenty of meaning in the translation.
i once started an "engrish" version of the bible. i decided to move on from this daunting task until i am old and feeble.

kephm, Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't find my NRSV!

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess the purpose is to provide solace to people who run into hard times, to say God is testing your faith and that you should just trust in Him. I'm probably a spoiled brat, but I'm sorry, I just can't believe in this kind of God.

"Testing your faith" is, I'm pretty sure, a more modern concept than would apply to Job, but that's probably a good description of how the text is used now. I wish it hadn't been so long since I read Jack Miles's God: a Biography, which is pretty much the best overview of "the character of God" in the OT/Tanakh. But what I remember of what he said, combined with the way I look at things from other sources, the book is most likely an oral legend -- possibly not originally about Jehovah, but one of the Elohim (i.e., I don't remember which form of "God" the book is written about) -- rewritten for the monotheistic or henotheistic crowd. It's an artifact of the "angry, vengeful, unknowable God," fairly at odds with the God of love and kittens and not-so-much-of-the-smiting.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Summary of chapters 38-42: God comes down, chastizes Job for a long time for questioning Him, Job apologizies, God makes the three stupid friends give Job some oxen and stuff and makes Job happy again. THE END. Up until then, it's a pretty Old Testament story.
If I remember correctly, there was suspicion that the happy ending epilogue was added on later. Anyone else know about this? Tep?

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Ohhh, I'll bet you're right. I have a backpack full of rotten cherries to contend with and then I will look it up. I really need an excellent non-fundamentalist-type concordance instead of all these multiple reference books.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, there are quite a few passages that seem to derive from different others, if I remember correctly.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Seeing as how even on the Bible Gateway thing I linked to has it listed as "Epilogue," I think I might be right.

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Looking around real quick, it looks like the story was almost definitely a non-Hebraic legend which was glommed into the Tanakh with the new-&-improved Hebrew El (the portrayal of Satan, frex, is more consistent with a poly- or henotheistic system than a monotheistic one) -- which supports the likelihood of a redactor tagging an ending on when they rewrote it.

I think a good part of the importance of the story to the monotheists would be both the unknowability of God and the idea that you worship God even if he doesn't give you anything -- it makes less sense to stress this point in an already monotheistic community, but in the context of the struggle between the monotheists and the traditional polytheists within the Hebrew communities, it's critical. "Why should we worship that God? He's never given us anything!" "Well, yes, but you should worship him anyway. He's wicked tough."

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Or in other words "yep."

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah yes. Several years of religion studies come rushing back to me.

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Tep, are you studying religion or do you work with it? You always have insightful and useful things to say on religion threads.

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Technically neither right at the moment (thank you, though :)) -- my first MA was in history, but only because religious studies wasn't offered (my thesis, never completed, was on the historicity of King David and the United Monarchy of Israel); the MA I'll actually finish is now in Western European Studies cause I missed the deadline for RS, so I'm focusing on Catholicism in European history. Right this moment, though, there aren't any religion classes offered, so I'm taking other things until the fall.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(And this coming semester I'm hoping to strike the rock and make academic street cred flow by getting a paper published; I am actually working on something about the ethics of time travel from a Catholic perspective.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Crazy. I have a BA in Religion (along with one in Psych) but I've basically forgotten everything I learned because I stopped reading anything that wasn't for fun after school.

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

As luna pointed out just now in another thread, whether she meant it this way or not, I tend to write about religious stuff in fiction, so I retain it just cause I'm using it all the time (first novel was about Jesus, second about the Second Coming, third about the Grail, fourth is about the Tower of Babel). I should probably rein it in sometime, but ... there's a lot there :)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

please tell me more about that Tep!

(xp: the time travel thing I meant)

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

It's really vague right now because I'm only recently learning more than the basics about post-Vatican II Catholicism and I don't know how valid or appropriate it is to come at the thing with just the Medievals and so on in mind.

But for instance --

If you travel into the past, is it or is it not to pray for the intercession of saints who have not yet been canonized in the local time period?

Which church doctrines are you bound by, those of the local time or those of your native time? (sub: if you travel back to before Christ, are you bound by laws of ritual cleanliness?)

Is changing the past the fulfillment or betrayal of God's Plan (sub: is it even possible to "betray" God's plan -- paging all the free-will/predestination theorists, you're wanted on line 2)?

To what extent should ethics consider the indirect consequences of actions done in the past?

And etc. I've been working on it here and there on the side, but between the frivolity and the reliance on Catholic writers, I think it'd be marketable to absolutely no one (unless I expanded it to a book; "What does the Church say about cloning/time travel/the possibility of sufficiently-advanced robots having a soul if a soul is an emergent property.")

It is frivolous, but by the same token it addresses a lot of doctrinal issues in terms of how and when prescriptive behavioral doctrine becomes binding.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and by post-V2 Catholicism, I mean not only the developments since then, but the previous writers who are favored more than others -- if no one likes Augustine right now, there's no point in using him to make a point, and etc.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Love it. (I'm writing a time-travelling movie right now so I'm interested in anything having to do with it)

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Job works on several levels. There is the literal level, which is the story,
Then there are several meanings/messages:

One one level, there is the "testing your faith--if you keep it, you will be rewarded" which is really a "Don't give up" message.
On another level it explains "why bad things happen to good people". Answer: "No reason that you can control. Not your fault, just get through it."
Another nice message from Job is hope: "If you stick it out, things can get better through forces that are just as beyond your control as the forces that made things go bad".

Taken as a whole, I think Job is a rather Zen book.

Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh my GOD, Orbit gets it. You get it! You get it! Hurrah!

Really, though, Job's story has proven to be utter and complete solace to me over the last couple of weeks. The parallels between his trials and challenges and my trials and challenges have comforted me, especially knowing what happens to him when he keeps his faith. I also sorta understand some of the reasoning behind keeping one's faith up even through the roughest of times, because I felt this wonderful sense of calming and "refuge from the harsh glare of the outside world" whenever I would enter into my daily prayer (yes, I pray once a day) or go to Sunday Mass. I still do draw tremendous amounts of strength and peace from praying and being religious (or if you'd prefer, being spiritual).

Sure, I still have stressors in my life. Sure, life isn't a walk in the park. But life has become a little bit sweeter and a lot more wonderful and precious and amazing. That's what I feel.

Just Deanna (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread has pretty much described in microcosm 90% of everything I've ever done in religious studies. It wouldn't have occurred to me that Job would do that.

(That isn't meant to be dismissive of any of the various interpretations; it's just a good example of interpretive drift.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 30 July 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the Book of Blowjob

Mike Hanle y (mike), Thursday, 31 July 2003 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, the Fellatio Thread is over there, buddy.
Move along.

Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 31 July 2003 02:06 (twenty-two years ago)


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