2003 MLB Awards debate!

MVP = Most Valued Player (I know that one)

It's baseball. Oh, I've worked out what MLB really is now.

ESPN = Enormous Sour Penis Network

As far as A-Rod goes, he's great and all, but there's no way he should get the MVP. I know the precedent has been set by Andre Dawson winning it in '87, but it just doesn't seem right. How valuable can A-Rod be to the Rangers right now? He can't help them get out of last place. He would have much more impact on a team that was at least on the verge of being good.

And I really like Podsednik for rookie of the year. He's hardly been on TV at all, so it's hard to see how good he is, but I spent some time in Milwaukee earlier this season, and watched a few Brewers games, and that kid is amazing. Always playing hard and stretching singles into doubles and whatnot. Really exciting player.

Schmidt could win a couple more games and go to 17-5, with an ERA potentially around 2.10...I'd give it to him in that case.

i put it this way on another thread... gagne for cy young is like nominating a pinch hitter for MVP.

Saves are a joke. Total luck. Heck, Hasegawa had a one pitch save last night. A one pitch save!

And to think holds aren't even an official stat.

There is a reason smart clubs let the good closers walk every year. Rivera maybe the exception but he's Rivera - the best ever - and money is no object for them anyway.

AL MVP is a tossup...I figure Manny lost a few votes with his trip while sick out to a bar, besides that lineup has so many sticks it is hard to take a swing. I'd bet on "the big hurt", because I think some of the sportswriters are going to be glad that he got his game back. Mind you, I think Maglio is probably the best hitter on that club. Giambi is hitting like .245 and neither Boone or Suzuki are that dominating a hitter.

I don't think the closer position is that overrated, just look at the adventures the Phillies and Red Sox have been through this year. Put a big time closer on either and you probably could add ten or more wins to each.

The best way to use a dominate closer is to have someone with pretty much as good stuff setting up. That first Torre WS team with Wetteland and Rivera and the Nasty Boys with the Reds in 90 are good examples. Look at the Angels.

Gagne is going to win the NL Cy Young. The guy has been pretty much unhittable. Of course, that Mota guy they have setting up is just about as good, so he has had the luxury of mostly starting an inning fresh and not inheriting runners. If they had enough pop to get into the playoffs, with their starters and those two guys in the pen, I think they could be deadly, but they are just too far back.

NL MVP? Bonds. With his dad dying, I can't see the sports writers not voting for him out of spite like they have in teh past...oh yeah, he is the most feared hitter in baseball. I begrudgingly give him his due. (I've thought he was a prick since he was with the Pirates.)

Best closer ever? Rivera definitely has made his mark in the playoffs (except game 7 w/D-backs, but I suppose it was bound to happen some point). Before his arm got messed up Sutter was a freak, his splitfingered fastball changed baseball, as it became "the pitch" that everyone started adding to their arsenal. That troika the Reds had with Dibble, Randy Myers and Norm Charlton was the freakin' gauntlet, come on--two lefties and a crazyass righthander that at that time threw high ninetys.

I don't know about letting closers walk either...Nen has been with SF for at least a half dozen years, Wagner has been their closer for four or five, Hoffman with the Padres, Percival with the Angels... Getting 30 saves might not be that big a deal, but being able to deal smoke definitely is something when you get one you keep it until the bottle is running empty. The closer is a bit like a good running back, the really good ones usually have maybe a half dozen good years, then they are not the same player if their career continues.

I just don't see the pinch hitter collalary...I've seen too many good clubs flame out because they couldn't shut the door (Boston 86, Cleveland 97, Atlanta--a few times).

If there was some mutant Rusty Staub that had ten pinch hit game winning home runs in a year, they might deserve some MVP votes.

Oh, and for the NL MVP, it should go to Bonds. He's more valuable to the Giants than Pujols is to the Cardinals.

Are you just talking about Gagne, or would you have said this about Eckersley, Bedrosian, Hernandez, etc.? (i.e., Should closers never win?)

some gagne stats:

2003 Record/Saves/ERA/BAA vs.
ATL = 0-1 / 0 /27.00/.500
SFO = 0-1/ 1 /2.08/.188

Career BA/OPS/HR/BB vs. Eric Gagne:
Gary Sheffield = .667/2.750/1/1
Marcus Giles = .667/2.467/1/2
Vinny Castilla = .500/2.000/2/0
Andruw Jones = .385/1.352/2/1

Edgardo Alfonzo = .375/1.319/1/1
Rich Aurilia = .389/1.087/1/3
Benito Santiago = .250/.814/1/0
for some reason bonds vs. gagne stats don't come up on espn

however, the last time Gagne faced Bonds:
(I was at this game) Gagne walked him on 4 pitches, santiago comes up, Bonds steals 2nd (for his 500th steal), Santiago singles on the next pitch to score Bonds from second, gagne gets the loss, then proceeds to trash the visitor's dugout like a little princess throwing a tantrum.

gagne is not unhittable, he's (at best) the 4th-5th best dodger pitcher, he is extremely over-hyped and with the 7 games remaining this season between the Giants vs. Dodgers, the real NL cy young candidate will be apparent.

This isn't even a contest.

I'm giving it to Berroa because I hate the Yankees & I hate Italians even more.

Matsui - 17.39
Rocco - 13.69
Berroa - 13.12

NL Cy Young
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5340.jpg

NL ROY
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6873.jpg

AL MVP
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5587.jpg

AL ROY
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5587.jpg

AL Cy Young
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/5587.jpg

NL ROY = brandon webb (over scott podsednik)

AL Cy Young = hudson vs. loiaza
AL MVP = arod
AL ROY = berroa

conditions of performance:

gagne: dodgers have to have between a one and three run lead for gagne to even get a chance to pitch his one inning (with a few exceptions detailed below).

schmidt, prior, webb: pitch indefinite innings on a regular rotational basis until (A) they give up (x) amount of runs more than their team's production or (B) reach (y) # of pitches.

*(x) and (y) both determined by manager.

succinctly:
if gagne is so good/dominant to be considered for Cy Young, why does he only pitch when the dodgers have the lead?

for example: i would have loved to see bonds vs. gagne this weekend series... but because the dodgers are only slightly better than the SF bench (SF starters were rested today and LA barely squeeked by), it didn't happen.

and gagne is "perfect" in save opportunities this season... well, here are some of the "less than perfect" gagne performances this year that you won't be hearing about:

5/12/03 @ LA: at the end of the 8th, the dodgers and braves are tied 4-4... atlanta scores 7 against the dodgers in the top of the 9th, including a vinny castilla single, a rafael furcal walk, marcus giles' single (1 run scores), then sheffield's 2-run double with runners on 1st and 3rd... all off gagne! (4 earned runs) final: atl - 11, la - 4

6/23/03 @ SF: in the bottom of the 11th, dodgers and giants tied with 2 runs apiece. in comes gagne to face barry bonds, leading off for the giants. gagne walks him, bonds steals 2nd (his 500th career SB), benito santiago doubles to score bonds from 2nd. "princess" gagne proceeds to trash the locker room including ripping the bullpen phone off the wall (billed $500). final: sf - 3, la - 2

7/02/03 @ LA: [NOTE: Gagne's first appearance since his meltdown/tantrum in SF.] Gagne comes in at the top of the 9th, two grounders and a strikeout to retire the side. Tracy leaves him in for the top of the 10th (princess has had TWELVE days off post-tantrum...): pop out, then a single by Gary Matthews turns into a double due to Beltre's throwing error. Gagne then (because he's so dominant/unhittable right?) INTENTIONALLY WALKS Mark Kotsay. Mark Loretta singles an 0-1 pitch to left, Matthews scores from 2nd, Kotsay scores on another throwing error (Kinkade), Loretta to 3rd. Granted the Dodgers defense is pathetic, but 2 singles and an IBB off gagne by the 2nd worst team in the NL... final: sd - 4, la - 3 (shawn "too little, too late" green solo homer in the bottom of the 10th)

Lastly, since this is the "year that matters", gagne blew a save in this year's all-star game, giving up a one-out double to garret anderson, followed by a home run by rookie hank blaylock. so the NLCS winning team have gagne to thank for the MASSIVE DETERMINATING FACTOR of the AL team getting homefield advantage in the world series... something you would expect a cy young caliber pitcher ("the best") to have prevented.

so should there be an asterisk next to gagne's (current total) of 53 consecutive saves because he blew the all star game? did that game really "matter" or not?