fate/destiny/serendipity and other useless nonesense

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ok, I know it's probably been done to death, but like fuck I'm going to go searching for a thread like it. I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are in regards to these kinds of things. is it all a load of balony, or is there some depth and truth to it?

Have you had a moment in your life which seemed to be more than just "coincidence"? A moment of TRUTH? Did you just "bump" into someone at the right time? Avert disaster because of a chance happening? Met the love of your life when least expected? Has someone said something at just the right moment that saved your life? etc etc...

I'm interested to hear any stories that you might have.

― elizabeth (elizabeth), Sunday, 7 December 2003 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't believe in it personally, sorry.

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

im not saying i believe in it either. but maybe hearing/reading about other people's stories will help me to understand how and why some people do.

― elizabeth (elizabeth), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

why some ppl do is that they don't look at it from a statistical standpoint. wel, that sums most of it up. I think the "love when least expecting it" is npot summed up by that. There is after all such a thing as trying too hard, appearing desperate ect ect, so when you're really busy and you feel that you have no time for a relationship and perhaps you're not putting a huge effort into making yrself look beautiful and conducting yrself in what you see as the correct manner, you may also be at your most attractive to some ppl. Obv there's a lot more to it than that, but it's a start.

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah thats a good way of looking at it.

― elizabeth (elizabeth), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

religious upbringing has an enormous bearing on this too.

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

hmm yeah...see that's the thing - I've been brought up my whole life in my parents christian/pentecostal church, and only recently have I kind of branched away from it. I know it definetely used to influence my beliefs on these sorts of things, but now I think I am more open to other possibilities. Whatever they happen to be...

― elizabeth (elizabeth), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

so presumably the pentecostal church would say that God has a plan for everyone's life? I know more about the worship style of pentecostals than I do abt their beliefs.

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)

ha yeah, well, the church i went to wasn't into the whole scene that is usually associated with 'pentecostal churches' anyway, i am not going to turn this into a religious/church discussion. but yes, apparently 'God's plan' overrides fate and chance and all things associated. i guess some people would still think of it as a kind of fate. i have no idea what i'm talking about. personally, the thought of having my life entirely planned out and therefore having no control over the outcome pisses me off.

― elizabeth (elizabeth), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

My dad was in two places at one time once (bilocation). ESP, paranormal activities run in my family apparently. Coincidence, shmoincidence. I'm NOT religious. I was raised by Communist barn animals. Me mum was a sheep, me dad a strutting megarooster. Sexist archetypes...speaking of which, Carl Jung and sychronicity? UFO's, bigfoot, astrology, gumball machines, whatevah!!!!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously though...

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

as well it should. I would have thought it really affects your dealings with other ppl too - e.g., if you felt that a friend was doing something that you really thought was not in their best interests and you wanted to help them or at the very least advise them, if you velieved that God had a plan for their life too you might hesitate to take any action for fear that you were acting in violation of this plan.

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah exactly. i guess it could kind of make you lazy. 'fuck it - i'm not going to do that, if it's bound to happen, it'll happen anyway' or something along those lines. thinking about these kinds of things really strains my brain.

― elizabeth (elizabeth), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually remmeber someone at uni who said that he wasn't going to revise for his exams, he'd just pray and God would see he'd do alright. He got a third.

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 7 December 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

haha that'll teach him.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 7 December 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, I'd like to hear you explain your "statistical standpoint" comment, b/c I think I have something similar in mind. My thing has something to do with an analogy to the Poisson equation (via Gravity's Rainbow).

― Leee Trevino (Leee), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Exactly speaking, that a theoretical God or an "angel" withthat has a spacial ("far above enough") and temporal nature that allows it to see the trajectory of lives and events in such a way that our paths appear to be predetermined. However, because we don't have this scope, for all intents and purposes, our perspective sez we have free will.

― Leee Trevino (Leee), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I think there's a bit of both going on... I believe there is a God (though I'm not religious or anything) and he's* generally pretty just and well-meaning but he's also a real son of a bitch who'll put you through the wringer to teach you a lesson, test your strength, etc. He puts us in the situations, and we make the choices, and if we fuck up he lets us know.

*oh, whatever

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

what i'm more affected by is thinking about all those moments when i met exactly the right person at exactly the right time and didn't notice them because i wasn't wearing my glasses, or walked two feet above buried treasure on a beach in Florida, stuff like that

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 8 December 2003 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

JBR, if you really believe there's a disembodied spirit that takes some kind of interest in our individual lives (just the 6 billion homo sapiens at any one moment, or all animals, incidentally?) how can you not be religious?

I mean, if I could genuinely believe that, my whole world would be turned upside down. At the very least, I'd probably make some changes, anyway. And yeah, I guess I'd be "religious" in those circumstances.

As it is, I don't believe in fate, destiny or serendipity.

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 8 December 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

My first ILE thread:

Do you believe in fate?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

God, I talked a lot of shit back in the old days.

Of course HSA has been rubbishing my ideas of fate or chance so much lately that I've lost even that tiny bit of faith in the basic nature of the universe. :-(

― THAT Kate (kate), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing about all this is to bear in mind the countless moments every day when you *don't* meet the love of your life, narrowly avert death, win the lottery etc. In fact, if you assume (say) that each second gives you the opportunity for something remarkable to happen, from a probability perspective it's almost like there *should* be more remarkable things happening to you.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

yes of course i think it is important to feel something like such forces guiding you or nudging you, i don't see how one can live without such feelings. what doesn't seem necessary or even desirable is to theorize too much about what those forces mean or intend, or what shape they take in general.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Humans are hard-wired to spot patterns and connections everywhere. Therefore, we see connections even when they don't exist.

― caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

yes this explains art.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean how else does one appreciate falling in love, its not all contingency and willpower after all

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Humans are hard-wired to spot patterns and connections everywhere. Therefore, we see connections even when they don't exist.

say what? how exactly do these connections 'not exist'? what *does* exist if not things we perceive? how do we trust the concept of our being 'hard-wired' -- maybe we're 'hard-wired' to think that.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

the very chance of you being born at all is one in a zillion*. that's pretty remarkable, for starters.

*actual REAL statistic

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

what *does* exist if not things we perceive?

There isn't necessarily a connection between what we perceive and what objectively "exists". We can perceive hallucinations, but they're not real.

(I agree with what Mark said: there are so many moments when coincidences don't happen)

― caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

the very chance of you being born at all is one in a zillion*. that's pretty remarkable, for starters.

*actual REAL statistic

That's far too vague to be a real stat -- what can it mean '"you" being born' -- 'you' weren't born at all, but were made. What does the stat mean?

There isn't necessarily a connection between what we perceive and what objectively "exists".

Sure, so what 'objectively "exists"' then? Who decides? There's no necessary connection, but there's some connection.

― N-Rique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

'you weren't born at all, but were made'?

i wasn't born? are you sure?

no. its not a real statistic. it was an attempt at flippancy.

christ.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

but...an explanation...

the chance of your parents meeting, conceiving when they did - the chance of their parents meeting, conceiving when THEY did - follow back ad infinitum. its pretty fucking unlikely, really, isn't it?

you can choose to believe its all a huge coincidence, but next to the odds of such a coincidence ocurring, it might not be too extraordinary to believe in fate.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

That isn't a 'coincidence' -- there was no immanent 'you' in the world before your parents fucked. It's not a case of probability, is it? You're the consequence of this sorta contingent event.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Enrique is that guy in the 300-level philosophy course that asked all the questions from 110 and then my friend Marty and I started quoting South Park in the back of the classroom until the professor asked us to leave.

I believe that everything happens for a reason.

― TOMBOT, Monday, 8 December 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I believe there is no future and no past. This puts me in a rather awkward position when people ask me what I've been up to, or what I'm planning to do.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 8 December 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Whut-EVA

I digitally inserted Jabba the Hut into Star Wars -- whut-EVA, I'll do whut I WAN'.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

what have you been you up to colin?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 8 December 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I was reading Nicks orginal thread and just wanted to bring up something he said. It was along the lines of "armed with a map of every atom in the universe you would be able to see the future".
As I don't believe in randomness at any level I don't see why this isn't true. I believe that all molecules, subatomic paricles, whatever, act in accordance to a previous action. So what is the argument against this?

The human involvment is merely the product of said atoms and such, and manifests itself in religion, beliefs, and general personal emotional reactions.

We joy and marvel in the event of any amazing coincidences but, as Mark said, compared to all the non-coincidences they are pretty rare in their occurrence. Mind you this statistic doesn't stop *me* going all goose-pimply when something wierd happens, (as I am human afterall)(unfortunately)

― Ste (Fuzzy), Monday, 8 December 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

As I understand it, with quantum physics, there are random things going on at a sub-atomic level. I'm not quite clear on why physicists are so convinced that they really are random, rather than just as-yet-unexplained, but that seems to be the current orthodoxy.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's one of many that's happened to me: One Sunday the name 'Castiliogne' popped into my head, i had never heard it before, and didn't know what it was, but it stayed in my thoughts for the next few hours. Next day at work, a colleague came up to me and said
'read this', and handed me a book called 'The Book of the Courtier' by Castiliogne, a renaissance diplomat. She knew i enjoyed reading history, but i had not mentioned the word to her at all.

It's not particularly exciting, i know, but bigger ones have happened which i don't care to relate.

― pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

That stuff happens all the time!! The word thing. Some ppl say that we all kind of fiulter out the wds we don't understand, so in fact you may have seen his name some times before. It's only when they make an impact that you notice them next time. But part of me really does think there's something bigger.

But this thread is really about love -- teenagers especially think of love the way German dictators think about history.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Humans are hard-wired to see hidden connections, yes. We are also hard-wired to scoff at things we have not experienced first hand. Moooooo, baaaa, cluck-cluck. 23 Skidoo!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I like 23 Skidoo, but even before I heard them I thought I might.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The year 2003 is just 23 with two zeroes in the middle.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

N. Yeah, I spose physicists don't have the ability to examine sub-atomic particles beyond a certain level. hmm, just what *is* it making those suckers move like that?

(picture tiny kittens with goggles & crash helmets driving sub-atomic particles into each other like bumper-cars, yes yes)

(btw I have no knowledge of what a sub-atomic particle is even though I have used the wording at least 3 times in 2 posts. Does this make me an interlektual now?)

― Ste (Fuzzy), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Skidoo!!!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Latebloomer, you know the thread where you were apologising? Perhaps it's time to go back there.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

N (etc) - the "hidden variables" possibilty that the randomness of QM is just stuff we don't know about (rather than CAN'T) is the focus of the "Aspect Experiment" http://roxanne.roxanne.org/epr/eprS.html

That's a quick link. I'll have a look for a better explanation...

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox is looking pretty good

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

there was no immanent 'you' in the world before your parents fucked

this is why I have a real problem with the concept of an eternal soul. If the soul exists after death, when all the material which makes you has been chemically altered so that you no longer can be said to have a physical body, even a decaying one, then it stands to reason that there is also a soul which existed prior to yr conception, hanging around in a kind of soul warehouse waiting to be allocated to a person whenever a conception occurs. Religion appears to be curiously silent on this subject (other than to say that the event occurs at conception rather than birth, or else why the opposition to abortion?)

― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

'Soul Warehouse' = Hott nu genre

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I am so amused by the Soul Wearhouse Concept...

But wait! Wasn't there a Dr. Seuss cartoon about this?

― THAT Kate (kate), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

DOH! I typed warehouse correctly the first time, then thought "that doesn't look right" and changed it, and now it looks like some trendy clothing boutique. Sigh.

― THAT Kate (kate), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark - 'it stands to reason' - why?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:38 (twenty-two years ago)

So every sperm we waste contains at least half a soul? Or even the singredients for a soul? New meaning for the term "soul food" haha

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Trust Barry to turn this into a thread about oral sex...

― THAT Kate (kate), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

then it stands to reason that there is also a soul which existed prior to yr conception, hanging around in a kind of soul warehouse waiting to be allocated to a person whenever a conception occurs. Religion appears to be curiously silent on this subject

mark... have you met any buddhists (or witches, for that matter) lately?? they're far from silent on this subject.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Unless they're trappist monks.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Reincarnationist religions tend to say that you 'are' your soul, and it is your physical body/personality which are given to you. Before and after birth you are in your 'true' state (according to etc.)
In terms of 'where' you are, that would be in one of the billions of 'spiritual' realms (similar in christianity where JC says 'my father's mansion has many rooms').

― pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

mark: guess it depends if you believe in destiny... if you do, then the soul in that sperm wasn't going to be born anyway. if you DON'T, then your assessment would be more right.

thinking about this, doesn't that mean that if you're of a religious bent you should be more inclined to support abortion than if you're not?

would a (supposedly) infallible god put souls that were supposed to be born in a position where they wouldn't be born? that's not very infallible, is it?

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

However i don't want to get drawn into a debate about whether or not Buddhism allows for the 'soul'...... i think we non-academics could safely interpret it like that without too much grief.

― pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

cross-post

― pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

(similar in christianity where JC says 'my father's mansion has many rooms').

That line is always being misinterpreted as a metaphor by libereals. In fact it's just Jesus boasting about how big his dad's house is.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 December 2003 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Interestingly, i know many religious ppl who find magical coeincidences as tedious as yer ultra-rational types, the reason being that 'well, its just God doing his stuff', while shrugging indifferently.

― pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i have a sneaking suspicion that nobody actually knows and, to some extent, we're all just blagging and hoping we're right.

To some extent you see what you're looking for in life. if you're looking for magical things in everyday existence, you (sometimes) find them. if you're looking to explain away everything scientifically, its (usually) perfectly possible to do so. the two aren't necessarily incompatible. perhaps eventually science will be able to explain those things it doesn't recognise as 'real' right now. (or conversely from the non-religious point of view perhaps religion will come to....err.....well, this isn't my point of view, someone else supply it.. 'stop existing', perhaps??)

so..you either get to believe the world is full of things we don't really understand, or you get to believe that it isn't and you'll notice whatever confirms your point of view.

even if you believe there's a reason to everything, it can be a mistake spending too much time looking for it. it suits me to believe that a lot of things do a have a significance but, equally, there are a lot of things where the significance could be vastly over-estimated.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

fnord

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 8 December 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

if you don't see the fnords, they won't eat you.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Why drag serendipity into this? What has it ever done?

There are studies that show that people who believe in fate and destiny have a poor grasp of probability.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Monday, 8 December 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

There are studies that show that people who believe in fate and destiny have a poor grasp of probability.

studies done by scientists, presumably?

how, exactly, do you scientifically analyse 'destiny'?

or do you just say that it doesn't exist?

or were you being flippant, and i missed it??

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Monday, 8 December 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The universe is what you want it to be.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 8 December 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I want it to be filled with kittens in mittens.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 December 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

So presumably ppl who've done something great/momentous in history
(both intended as 'non-judgemental' adjectives) had a poor grasp of probability. It's often said that to be a true original or display improbable qualities of charisma/leadership you have to be slightly delusional.

― pete s, Monday, 8 December 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

JBR, if you really believe there's a disembodied spirit that takes some kind of interest in our individual lives (just the 6 billion homo sapiens at any one moment, or all animals, incidentally?) how can you not be religious?

Well I can believe there is a god without believing that it's necessary to worship him or pray to him.

― bad jode (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 December 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

No, no, that's not quite what I was getting at. Fuck, this is hard to articulate. But... coming from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in an involved "creator deity" or whatever, I imagine that if I did have some kind of Road to Damascus epiphany, I'd turn into some kind of weird beatific person, just grooving on the (for want of better words) magic of it all.

I mean, we're used to the notion of a god (or gods) since that seems to be a part of our natures and most of our human cultures, but really -- objectively -- the notion is wild and outlandish, isn't it? And if proven, would change everything.

(I don't mean that as a criticism, but I can't find the exact words to express what I'm trying to say/ask).

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Well I can believe there is a god without believing that it's necessary to worship him or pray to him.

Quite correct. I just ask for mp3s and things. (Or have I said too much?)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I like to think that if there is a "God" or a universal consciousness, it isn't exactly the creatorly MANifestation in a linear beginning/end sense referenced in most organized religions, but more of a universal entity, a consciousness/awareness manifesting at all times and places, something so universe-encompassing that it essentially does not exist, a constant so constant that it has no actual effect on things occurring in finite temporal/physical plains; zero, null. So I guess that makes me agnostic ha ha.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha.

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

(That wasn't a sarcastic "haha", but concurring one, btw.)

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 8 December 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

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