Hidden evils in the most innocent of places

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B) Very hobbiterotic. There were at least 5 scenes where I expected Sam & Frodo or Merry & Pippin to kiss.
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-- nickalicious (nza2342...), December 22nd, 2003 9:02 AM. (later)

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Yeah, the end part with Sam and Frodo was so ridiculously sexual. I usually scoff at people searching for hidden homoeroticisms, but goodness! It was pretty blatant.
-- NA (naamm...), December 22nd, 2003 9:03 AM. (later)

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x-post
well Jackson would deny that vehemently - and is it right to just read sexuality into these things. can't two men (or in this case hobbits, who are not men thus different) just say they love each other and be charmed by each other's astonishing displays of courage, honour, loyalty, trust and generosity without it being read as some hobbo-erotic thang?

-- stevem (bluesk...), December 22nd, 2003 9:07 AM. (later)

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I'm taking that to a new thread.
-- NA (naamm...), December 22nd, 2003 9:12 AM. (later)

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Been meaning to start this thread for a while but can't really figure out how to phrase it. I always feel weird when people find the need to seek out "forbidden" or "edgy" aspects in innocent entertainment, especially in children's entertainment ("Velma was totally a lesbian," "Scooby and Shaggy were totally stoners," "The Smurfs were all gang-banging Smurfette," etc).
Why do we feel the need to give innocent characters "adult" characteristics, and what does this urge say about us?
PS, if you do this, you're not funny. Especially the Shaggy/Scooby stoner thing. Lame.
Also, why can't I ask a serious question without sounding like I'm brain dead?

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 22 December 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

they ARE stoners. you're so naive.

― g-kit (g-kit), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Shaggy was the stoner. Scooby just got blowbacks.

Sorry, this is not supposed to be funny, right?

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Towlie from south park, i reckon he was a stoner.

― g-kit (g-kit), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

No, but Sam and Frodo totally wanted to kiss. And then Sam's love for Rosie Cotton is just thrown in there haphazardly. Is it that random in the book?

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

is it that there's an homoerotic or that we've come to distrust any close, affectionate relationship between males?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know, I think once you grow up and start noticing certain similarities and realize that the people who wrote/created said 'innocent' entertainment were not necessarily the most innocent of folks themselves, like yourself perhaps, it's inevitable and you can do it without even thinking about it much.

Like when you wake up and realize that C-3P0 and R2-D2 are still the world's favorite gay couple.

― TOMBOT, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Some are right, some are not. Some are funny i.e. observant, some are not.

Velma - Wot, just cus she's not Daphne?
Shaggy, maybe.
Smurfette? unfunny.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Sam's lusting after ~~George~~Rosie is pretty obv in the first film.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

It is an interesting and perhaps even saddening phenomenon. The authors of things like Captain Pugwash and The Magic Roundabout always strongly denied there was any innuendo in there regarding homo-eroticism (Pugwash) or hallucinatory drug experiences (Magic Roundabout) - I think people just see what they want to see, or find it easy to make correlations because these things occur naturally in life.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Or what Dick Van Dyke is implying when he keeps winking at Julie Andrews. Chim Chiminey Chim Chim a-Roo indeed.

― TOMBOT, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

well Mary Poppins was mad hawt so that's fair enough

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

do you like to be spanked, stevem?

― Allyzay, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

The Captain Pugwash thing is a load of old toss, but I definitely saw a Magic Roundabout episode not that long ago where they went out and found some magical mushrooms that made the sky go green and stuff.

However, I have no idea if it was off the original series, or whether it was the crap remake where they probably thought it would be a good idea to insert some drug references to appease the students.

I also have no idea why I was watching it.

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

well if i was Dick Van Dyke i would've totally crushed on her, but there was no need to introduce that theme into the film for sure

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

#37: the creator of Bagpuss was a filthy Commie and the show is Marxist propaganda

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

A Spoon Full of Sugar helps the MEDICINE, go DOWN,

― TOMBOT, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Backpeddler!!

― Allyzay, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

And Weed in the Flowerpot Men is all about drugs.

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I've brought this up before, but is there a chance that Frost was slyly writing about butt-love?

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same.

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

ok i backbackpeddle, i would really like to be spanked by Mary Poppins

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Mary Poppins was about the upper classes' fear of the lower classes.

That's my reading of it, anyway...

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"Who Framed Roger Rabbit" was totally about racism in the film industry.

Right?

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I think this is sort of lame but it's not like any kids' enjoyment of these programmes/films is really being ruined by it, let the students have their fun say I.

What really annoys me along similar lines is when someone sagely pronounces that a song (usually "There She Goes" or "Perfect Day" as it happens) is "really about drugs" as if they are the only person to have ever been granted this pearl of wisdom.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"really about butt-love" is the new "really about drugs"

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

rock stars writing songs about personal experiences shockah

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha that is OTM, like you sit there and someone puts on Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory and some college asshole then pronounces, very seriously, "This film is very drug-oriented, you know" as if NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD EVER NOTICED THIS. "Oh really? Here I was not at all noticing how coked up and scary Gene Wilder's entire performance is, thank you for that."

― Allyzay, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate all of you. And myself.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Also stevem, what are your feelings on Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music? Is Maria as hot as Mary Poppins? Sometimes I think the nun thing makes her hotter but quite honestly I'm more keen on the black hair.

― Allyzay, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Just kidding, I don't really hate myself.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

What you may not know is that all the oompaloompas are played by 'Big' Ron Atkinson.

― Ed (dali), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Julie Andrews in Victor/Victoria where she's a woman pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman! OMG! So hot.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Huck, I wish I would have thought of that before I heard that poem read at oh so many graduations throughout my life. It would have made them all much more entertaining.

Has anyone else read that book about Bubblegum music? It's like that.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

btw I was pointing out that Weed in the Flowerpot Men being about drugs is a k-lame line trotted out by idiots, not my personal opinion.

To answer NA's original question, what it says about the person trotting out the observation is "look at me, I know about edgy stuff like drugs! Aren't I cool?". (the answer invariably being no)

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Well really I think all of this stuff is just like when you start getting exposed to the famous greek myths and Big Important Literature and then upon re-watching things from childhood you're no longer a blank slate, you start making connections with the knowledge in your head. Frankly I'm more bothered by the fact that I cannot watch a lot of my favorite movies anymore without going in my head "haha Faust!" or "haha Gospel reference!" or "haha Richard III!" I'm not nearly as put off by my mind going in the gutter, that's at least enjoyable.

― TOMBOT, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder if when Richard III was first performed half the audience was going, "Ah, so-and-so reference!"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

isn't that at least 50% of the reason for the Simpsons indomitable popularity among undergraduates?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Please tell me that was an x-post.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Ugh yeah, Tom OTM, this is why I only watch Zoolander and Say Anything these days instead of all these wonderful films I really loved before I decided to study them. FUCK YOU COLLEGE STUDENTS.

― Allyzay, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

(yeah, Ned, xpost)

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

How is the hobbiteroticness of tender moments between beautiful man-halflings evil? The world is a harsh place.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

NA is afraid of hobbit love.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

well, you know what they say about men with big feet...

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

How is hobbit anything not disgusting and evil?

― Allyzay, Monday, 22 December 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

hobbits are not evil, in the same way that kittens are not evil (some kittens do naughty things as do some hobbits, but evil is a bogus concept, see the recent thread about 'Evil') although kittens are cuter in general. a kitten dressed like Mary Poppins is not a good idea tho.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Allyzay = Anti-Hobbite

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Obv. I don't think homosexuality is evil, but it tends to get lumped in with other "bad stuff" that these characters supposedly do, because I guess it's still subversive or verboten or something. I assumed everyone would figure this out, and I cut this disclaimer out of my original post because I didn't want it to be about homophobia per se. But since I apparently can't ask a question in a way that it deserves to be answered seriously, it doesn't matter.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I think everyone's got their 'funnies' out of the way...

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

My opinion fwiw is that a lot of those things are true.

In real life, a kid would not think anything of two women walking together. As an Adult, a number of things would lead you to conclude that they are lesbians, probably. As a teenager, you might guess, wrongly.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I feel bad now for entertaining myself thusly.

Seriously though, this phenomenon reminds me of something Robert Anton Wilson discusses a lot in his work (although I think it's something he pilfered from another source, I can't quite remember exactly), with regards to personal predispositions ("reality-tunnel"s he calls them) influencing the way the individual perceives the word. The model he used a lot was in regards to the notion that "23" is (supposedly) the most commonly reoccuring number in a series of random numbers. Even if it is not, the notion planted in the individual's mind might predispose them (even subconsciously) to noticing "23" popping up more often in sequences of randomly generated numbers. Similarly, someone whose diet consists strongly of bonghits might be predisposed to thinking Shaggy a stoner.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 22 December 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

if you stare long enough into the night sky...

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

.. you'll see everybody you've ever known...

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

..smoking doobies with their talking dog.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I wasn't trying to make the jokesters feel bad; this really is a poorly phrased question from me.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I answered the question :( Badly, and with some lame jokes on the way, but I tried.

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I answered seriously and then made with the haha.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it was a good set-up Nick. I think we all get what you're talking about.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

and plus, just cuz something's funny doesn't mean it's insincere or untrue.
to think otherwise is comicism, and it's wrong.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I weirdly mentioned this on another thread, but consider that when Tollkien wrote the books, the concept of and acceptable expression of male sexuality was a bit different than today!

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 22 December 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone knows that the little orange worm that hung out on Oscars can really lived in his ass.

― Chris 'Knuckle Deep' V. (Chris V), Monday, 22 December 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Wowza.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Monday, 22 December 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

and (according to Dave Chappelle) that's how kids learn to be mean to homeless people.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 22 December 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is about drugs?

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 22 December 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

caffeine is a drug, so yes

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 22 December 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

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