roughly what proportion of the U.S. budget is spent on defence?

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and where would i find figures of this kind?

robin (robin), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

none, it's spent on defense instead.

haha (gygax!), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Honest-to-goodness defense or imperialist conquesting?

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

what they refer to as defense i suppose

robin (robin), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Get a US tax manual, they have a pie chart breakdown approximation of where the money is spent.

Percentage wise, it isn't as much as you would think, but it is still an amazing amount of money.

earlnash, Wednesday, 21 January 2004 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm more curious than anything else,and us tax manuals probably wouldn't be that readily available in ireland...
i always read articles which quote random statistics about us defence spending,but i never have them to hand or remember them...

robin (robin), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 22:17 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.taxfoundation.org/images/Dollar2003.jpg

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

And something important to remember about the defense budget is that a huge portion of it goes to Veteran's affairs/pensions/healthcare etc.

here are two piecharts, one from an anti-war website:

http://www.warresisters.org/images/pieFY04.jpg

and another from the feds:

http://www.warresisters.org/images/FY04_deception.jpg
(actually from same URL, but it's the government view)

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

holy shit that's a lot of money on health and medical for a country with no national health. I have concluded that doctors make too much fucking money.

anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Wednesday, 21 January 2004 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I'm thinking that looks like more than we spend per tax pound on healthcare, and we have the NHS for our money. Where the heck does it go?

the river fleet, Thursday, 22 January 2004 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

America spends more money on health care than any other country in part for cultural reasons. While health care in America may be less equitable than it is in Britain, the majority that has access to it without substantial restrictions treats it as a right and expect coverage for every service whether or not necessary and would be unwilling to accept rationing or delays.

Of course, the private health insurance system may have something to do with it.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 22 January 2004 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

education and social services 4% while military at 18% ?
i believe the USA to be doomed as long as these two statistics don't switch places.

anahata, Thursday, 22 January 2004 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Education has tradionally been funded at the state level, usually by state/local property taxes and some states even use lottery funds for schools. (Pretty strange using the lottery, but hey, it wasn't my idea.)

The Fed govt. only kicks in 5 cents a dollar for local schools, which is why many state and local school systems are pissed at Bush wanting to put some nationwide univeral testing over all students.

It would hold poor school systems accountable for not being able to afford to give the same level of education that wealthier school districts. The kicker is that if the school isn't up to snuff, the feds pull their nickel back.

earlnash, Thursday, 22 January 2004 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

It would hold poor school systems accountable for not being able to afford to give the same level of education that wealthier school districts.

The key being that too many school systems (not just poor rural or inner city schools) aren't accountable to anyone anyway, but they all want more money and would like to frame the debate in terms of spending, as if $$$ = Good grades. This of course is total bullshit.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

as if $$$ = Good grades. This of course is total bullshit.

It's hard to attract good teachers if you can't pay them a competitive wage.

anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

$$$ = good grades because $$$ = better teacher/pupil ratios, books, computers, equipment, space, etc etc etc

It's not bullshit, it's obvious

run it off (run it off), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

The United States spends more money per student than any other country in the world - 60% more than the average among industrialized nations - and yet its high school graduation rate is below the world average and test scores among 15 year olds are only average. I'm not suggesting that we cut spending, but if we're going to spend that much that we should expect to see results.

The United States drains brains from the rest of the world in the post-education scientific research market because it has the economy to pay for it - an economy that relies on results. There's no reason to give schools a free pass if they're only going to squander that money.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no reason for Americans to go to school at all if their education is not going to guarantee them a job in the future, what with the astronomical increase in outsourcing.

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Unless we sell Americans for food. Jonathan Swift to thread.

donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Teaching a sense of entitlement is not going to produce intelligent, ambitious citizens.

The worst forecast I've seen - 2% of jobs outsourced by 2015 over a 25 year period - is an astronomical increase? Assuming those jobs simply disappear and those employees can't find new work, our unemployment rate will still be below most of Europe - and lower than it was here 20 years ago. Either way, what's the better strategy for educating a young person: A) We can't guarantee you the job you want, so don't bother, or B) No one can guarantee you the job you want, but if you work hard you'll greatly expand your options in the future.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no reason to give schools a free pass if they're only going to squander that money.

And the only social service provided by schools is an investment opportunity

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no reason for Americans to go to school at all if their education is not going to guarantee them a job in the future, what with the astronomical increase in outsourcing.

but it's too expensive to buy insourced goods! </vicious circle>

gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

3.3 million jobs in a period during which the economy will create 40+ million new jobs and population is expected to increase by 30 million doesn't set my teeth to chatterin'.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Education is certainly not a strictly monetary investment in children, but it's not a fucking day care service either. It's the primary social and intellectual training ground for future generations.

If you're going to spend 60% more than the rest of the industrialized world for average results you might as well spend that $4,000/student difference on something like health care or FUBU jackets..

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey man, of that 18% i assure you that i get very little of it.

El Spinktor (El Spinktor), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

does the % spent on defense get better results than the % spent on education?

run it off (run it off), Thursday, 22 January 2004 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm... I dunno. What countries have better militaries than us?

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Certainly we might be wasting money on defense as well, but at least there's no one out there spending half as much and kicking our asses.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 22 January 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Right. Just remember the adage, "DEE-fense wins championships"!

We champions, right?

Hunter (Hunter), Friday, 23 January 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

the fact that America spends more on its students than other countries (I'm taking you at your word here Stuart) is somewhat misleading because so much of school revenue comes from property tax. I went to high school in a border town in Arizona; in some classes we weren't allowed to take our books home because there were only 30 textbooks to go around for 100 students, so they stayed in the classroom. I visit a rich suburb of Phoenix and they have a fully functioning television studio to play with. I'd like to see a graph of how many school districts spend what amount of money...I think there are a lot of rich districts throwing the average off for the rural and inner city districts.

teeny (teeny), Friday, 23 January 2004 01:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The US also has a child poverty rate roughly double that of the nations it trails in education. I don't suppose that has a thing to do with literacy/graduation rates and test scores. Nothing at all.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 23 January 2004 01:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Although a quick search starts to poke holes in the "most spending" claim anyway.

http://www.aft.org/research/reports/interntl/sba.htm

"Indexed to national income, the U.S. commitment of public funding slips to below average. The ratio of per-pupil spending to per-capita GDP is .19. Only Australia, Japan and Germany have a noticeably lower ratio. When looking only at public funding for public schools, the overall conclusions about U.S. spending remain about the same.

IV. Conclusion

Considering all measures of education spending, the U.S. fails to spend lavishly on education in comparison to other countries. At best, U.S. spending is average. Both the share of national income approach and measures of per pupil spending are frequently misinterpreted and alone, neither provides a satisfying measure of education spending without such important contextual information on demographics, how education is structured, and personnel compensation costs.

What distinguishes U.S. education from other nations is not how much or how little it spends. Thousands of schools district make the U.S. unique. Education costs and personnel compensation vary tremendously. School districts operate free of national education standards and national salary schedules. The U.S. has forged a structure of long school days, busing, and school lunch programs to support a system of large schools. Consequently, noninstructional spending is a larger portion of school costs."

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 23 January 2004 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

OH MY GOD A TEACHERS UNION SAID THAT?!?!?

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 January 2004 02:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Because of course nobody sane or trustworthy would ever work for a teachers union ever, and Stuart is always right.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 January 2004 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I knew this thread was missing something.

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 January 2004 02:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Those lazy overpaid teachers will be the downfall of us all. They must obviously be the root of evil.

earlnash, Friday, 23 January 2004 03:43 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread is hyperbolicious

Stuart (Stuart), Friday, 23 January 2004 04:10 (twenty-two years ago)

OH MY GOD A TEACHERS UNION SAID THAT?!?!?

Amen, my brother.

And actually, it's a lot more revealing to compare school districts in metropolitan areas, say, where different county tax bases result in different per-pupil spending. Dumb kids is not a money or resource problem nearly as much as it is a cultural problem.

dandy don weiner, Friday, 23 January 2004 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Slurring the source is mighty weak, Stuart. Yep, a teacher's union "said that." Now you have to figure out where they're wrong, where they're distorting numbers and statistics, where they're distorting the truth.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 23 January 2004 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)


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