"I don't go to [suburb/outer borough of major city]": classic or stupid?

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Watching this past weekend's Sex and the City, I suppose I wasn't really surprised by Miranda's "I don't go to Brooklyn" outburst, but I felt it was a little out of date -- I used to hear people saying this back when Brooklyn had a higher crime rate and was less of the hipster bedroom community it is now, but I figured all that was over.

That's neither here nor there though -- the very open-shut "I don't go to _______" attitude really really irks me no matter what cultural setting it's being applied to.

And scanning ILX in the past couple of days...

Yes: I met a girl recently: "I don't go to the East Bay..." She looked ill when I told her I live in Oakland.
-- andy (and...), January 28th, 2004 4:15 PM.

Generally speaking, I don't go to Brooklyn. But I might, for Arthur Doyle.
-- Phil Freeman (newyorkisno...), January 27th, 2004.

What's up with people who say this?

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

It irks i agree.

i think a potentially valid reason for this, is if people come to the city from suburbia, and they've wanted to get away from suburbia all the time they were growing up, they wanted to be in the big city. so, when they get here, they dont want to go to the bits that remind them of where they came from, and they dont want the bits that are not exactly like what they dreamed the big city would be

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Only white folks say this!

― andy, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i live in the suburbs, but i try to stay away from them as much as possible. i'm sure that once I move into the city I'll never go to metairie again.

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, that's just silly. get on the damn subway! i can understand not being excited about having to spend an hour on the subway to get to mill basin or something, but people are almost never talking about that kind of a trip - they're usually whining about going two stops on the l-train or suchlike.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Stringent Stepper OTM to the tenth power. It's hard not to feel that way when suburbs seem to embrace bland homogeneity so willfully and... um, philistinically?

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

People tell me that they never come to the east end of Toronto and I always wonder why, but I rarely go to the west end; it's just a matter of where you need to go for home and work, and whether there's anything in the other areas of the city that interest you, really. We occasionally go to different areas of the city to look around, see the parks, whatever. If it's being used as an absolute, though, perhaps it's just an excuse to blow off something/someone.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The Oakland/San Francisco thing is especially crazy because it's like ten minutes by train from West Oakland to Embarcadero. I think St. Paul/Minneapolis has a similar Tale of Two Cities vibe... they're very close.

Plus, I see far gnarlier stuff in Downtown SF than I ever see in Oakland (people-wise, not blight-wise).

― andy, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes! And downtown St. Paul is a ghost town after about 7p.m.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I rarely frequent the Eastside tech-y suburbs of Seattle on my will, but not out of snobbery, but just out of pure objective reasoning. Those areas have little to offer me. I've been around every city in the area looking for worthwhile things in the past, and I didn't find them. (I obviously have to commute there for work, but that's different)

I agree it's snobbery if the person has never been there before, or only remembers being there once or twice in the past under less-than-pleasant circumstances...

(..like every person who disses Orange County who's only encounter was going to Disneyland, for example)

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

the suburbia/big city oppositional argument falls apart with new york, though. you really can't argue that the close-in borough neighborhoods are provincial... there's way more foot traffic on smith street in brooklyn than in many parts of the upper east side, for example.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

oakland... i dunno. i went there once, but it was under duress.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

The funny thing is that saying you don't go to Brooklyn nowadays marks you as a square, not a sophisticate.

― Nemo (JND), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(granted, there are plenty of reasons to diss Orange County outside that, but dissing without some minor cursory exploring first is pretty annoying... x-post)

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't go lots of places. I'm not going to go out of my way to visit some neighborhood I'm unfamiliar with unless they have something I need or want, like an Ikea or a good music shop or some such. Especially around here.

What the hell difference does it make if I don't visit certain areas? The only reason I come down here to northern VA is because I have to work here. Otherwise I'd stick to DC and my neighborhood as much as possible. I like walking.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

The places I 'don't go' are usually dreary boulevards with tons of new car lots and window-tinting shops... Mission Blvd. in Hayward/Fremont comes to mind. No foot traffic, surly Afgani markets, boarded-up motorcycle dealerships, a giant Bed Bath & Beyond.. what's the point?

― andy, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

it doesn't make any difference, as long as you're not shoving it in people's faces. i think the issue is with people who say things like "it's in brooklyn? fuck that!" or "you want me to go to midtown?" to when an invitation is issued.

(xpost)

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

That's fine, but would you refuse to go to a certain neighborhood even if the Ikea you needed to go to was there, just because you "don't go" there?

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

That's fine, but would you refuse to go to a certain neighborhood even if the Ikea you needed to go to was there, just because you "don't go" there?

Only if it was a huge transportation hassle, but never just because "i don't go there".

I don't think you'll find many people on this forum like that, Jody... they're all probably like "I just won't go to ILX".

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

;-)

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I went to the damn Apple Store in Soho for crying out loud.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I am disappointed that Miranda said this. She's the only one I really like and didn't have her down as being like that. I don't watch it very often though.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

That's not an outer borough/suburb really, but god, it was rough on the basic sensibilities. Xpost.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I went to the damn Apple Store in Soho for crying out loud.

haha, touche

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

oakland... i dunno. i went there once, but it was under duress.

probably half of oakland is snazzier, nicer, and safer than most of SF. admittedly there are crap areas of it as well but people don't judge SF by Hunter's Point, so people shouldn't judge Oakland by East Oakland.

I live in Berkeley and a great many of the SF people I know would rather die than drive over the bridge. They still expect me to show up to everything though. I mean, I used to drive across the bridge TWICE a fucking day, sometimes 4 times. It is not the end of the world. Although, I guess, if I lived in SF I wouldn't leave either, if only so I wouldn't have to come home and search for parking.

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't go to staten island. and i'm not ashamed of saying that.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:20 (twenty-two years ago)

these are the same bast*rds who change movie seats 11 times before the movie starts. hang them all from the gallows. then spit on their shoes

― kephm, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

for miranda it wasn't 'I don't ever go to brooklyn' it was 'I don't want to live in brooklyn.'

― teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, well that's OK.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

for miranda it wasn't 'I don't ever go to brooklyn' it was 'I don't want to live in brooklyn.'

But did you see the look of horror on her face when Steve said "Brooklyn"?

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Please post a vidcap.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, when I lived in NYC, I'd go just about anywhere. I lived in a Burrah so it would have been a bit hypocritical to refuse to go to another Burrah.

In London, however, if it's not in Zone 1, it can f*ck right off. But that has more to do with my Underground phobia (quite a sensible phobia given the levels of dirt and pollution) than any sensibilities.

But that said, it depends on the bus routes. I will go to out of the way places (Stoke Newington) if I can get there by one busride, while places I have to transer for (Swiss Cottage) I'm far more loathe to go.

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

while i definitely turn up my nose at Staten Island (and yes, Lawng Guyland), i DO get pissed off when people turn up their noses at the mention of "New Jersey." so color me hypocritical.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I have to say I'm not keen on south London and I'm less likely to take up an invite if it's way down there. But it's not an absolute. And I'd say the same about, umm, Richmond or Chiswick or Mile End or Wembly.

― Anna (Anna), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, in London fear of far-off places is somewhat justified because it actually costs more money to go to Zone 3 or further (assuming most people have Zone 1 & 2 travelcards). In NYC it's just snobbery.

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

i understand travelphobia in london. the tube, buses stuck in traffic, people wanting you to meet them in shepherd's bush only to go out again to old street... and the taxi receipts that i have... good lord. gives me the fear.

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

w/n NYC. outside the city -- to the NY, NJ and CT suburbs -- you also have to pony up more cash than just the metrocard fare.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

besides, NYC is HUGE -- it takes a long time to get from manhattan to some of the more distant parts of the city, like the rockaways or the portions of queens almost into nassau county.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, two-fare zones, I can understand the discrimination. But anything within the reach of the subway, no excuses there, Manhattan snobs! (Burrahs are for rats, my brother used to say, as to why he wouldn't visit me in Queens. For gods sake, LIC is closer to midtown than Columbia!)

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

really?
*ducks*

xpost

― kephm, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

but forest hills, or maspeth?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Berkeley and Oakland are cities not suburbs!!

I NEVER went to South London, except when my friend J lived in New Cross. Yeesh. (sorry, Julio)

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Come on, there are EXPRESS TRAINS that serve the further reaches of NYC, that's no excuse. If it were like the tube where you had to stop at every single stop on a "semi-fast" (takes for fucking ever) train, I would understand. But Forest Hills on an express train still takes less time than Columbia on the 1/9.

(Sorry to pick on Columbia, that's where my brother used to live. And complained about having to treck all the way out to Hunters Point to see me.)

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

sometimes people just like to bitch & moan.

― teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:00 (twenty-two years ago)

teeny otm

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Most suburban places in Amurrica are not well served by public transit. And driving there is a pain in the ass. And people are lazy. And there's usually much more to do in the city anyway, unless you need a sprawl mall.

But being all posh and saying "I don't go X" is annoying, yeah.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't go uptown.

― phil-two (phil-two), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't go outside.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't go to dangerous parts/suburbs of cities. whatever those may be for a given city.

(xpost: nicole wins!)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I transcend space and time (I just don't look it).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I just don't.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't go.

― i've been holding it in for years (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh Kate, oh Anna. I'm disappointed in you. I don't even want to talk about the ignorant anti-SW-Londonism shown by too many people on this bitch. Their loss, I suppose.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I (yi-yi-yi).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, I lived in Tooting for six months. It was the worst time of my life. I have EVERY reason to hate SW London.

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, I mentioned Chiswick and Richmond just as examples of the Here Be Dragons/ bloody miles out sections of the district line which are basically in Middlesex and a long, long way from my own zone 3 north London dwelling.

― Anna (Anna), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Can I just take a moment to say "You see that street over there? Just across the road? I live at the end of it. Thank you."

(OK, after all this smugness, just watch me get home and all my belongings will be in a big pile in the lobby of our block of flats, and the lock will be changed...)

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, Kate, hate Tooting by all means. Is that like hating Scots cos Calum's a loser?

Anna, understood, but North Londoners have the benefit of living somerwhere perceived (fairly in part, I'm sure) as trendier than south London. So I've been to north London lots, cos it's expected of me. Don't fear what you don't know.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I hated Tooting because I lived there and I know what a bitch it is to travel there. HSA also lived in Tooting; his goodness would balance out the yuckiness of evil person living there. It's all about the transport. (Or lack thereof.)

― The River Kate (kate), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I have friends who live in Balham. I visit them.

(I went out in Chiswick once, it was all a bit 'we shop at Gap and we're proud of it'. People looked at me like they knew I was skint/ wearing too much eyeliner. Sorry. I'm going to bed now I've been forced to reducing others to snotty cultural stereotypes, goodnight)

― Anna (Anna), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

West london sucks innit, i have to go there every day

― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"innit"

― paulhw (paulhw), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

For Seattle residents I would recommend that you avoid the Licton Springs area.

― Tim Boudskle, Thursday, 29 January 2004 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Area x of our city is supposedly the crime-ridden poor area while area y is the upper middle class golf course area, it fills me with glee to hear residents of x say, "I hate area y, it's full of hoity-toity assholes"

― Pious Twin (abennett), Thursday, 29 January 2004 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

this coming from a hoity toity asshole, of course

― Pious Twin (abennett), Thursday, 29 January 2004 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

When I tell people "I don't want to go to X neighborhood" 99.9% of the time it actually means "I don't want to hang out with you".

― Allyzay, Thursday, 29 January 2004 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought that episode of Sex and the City was unusually cliche-ridden and outdated. Is there any greater enduring and fallacious cliche in the world than the wisecracking, cloth-cap wearing NYC cabbie? They haven't been like that for thirty years! Also, once you're inside a cab they have to take you wherever you want to go, whatever borough, by law. Nobody says "I don't go to Brooklyn." They might groan, but that's it.
Me, I don't go to the Upper East Side or Staten Island. But other than that, hop in the back and we'll see what we can do for a flat rate., Feel free to light up, too.

― antexit (antexit), Friday, 30 January 2004 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

hell, there's some Manhattanites that won't go to another part of the island, much less Brooklyn!

Also, once you're inside a cab they have to take you wherever you want to go, whatever borough, by law.

Just because it's a law doesn't mean it's always obeyed. Esp. if you're black and going to Hunt's Point in the Bronx (not that I'd know from experience).

― hstencil, Friday, 30 January 2004 07:15 (twenty-two years ago)

also, I've been to fun parties on Staten Island. I kinda like St. George, the neighborhood around the ferry terminal.

― hstencil, Friday, 30 January 2004 07:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody says "I don't go to Brooklyn."

I got this last year. I reminded the guy that it was the law, and he just replied "tough shit" and waited for me to get out of the cab.

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 30 January 2004 07:23 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, it just happened to a friend of mine recently, too. He actually called it in to the TLC and they're gonna suspend the guy.

― hstencil, Friday, 30 January 2004 07:26 (twenty-two years ago)

haha it was probably the same guy!

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 30 January 2004 07:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I try not to venture west of LaBrea unless there is a very good reason to do so.

― Orbit (Orbit), Friday, 30 January 2004 07:27 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post

hahahaha, yeah, there's only one rude cabbie left in NYC!

― hstencil, Friday, 30 January 2004 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

well hopefully most of 'em have the good sense not to put their licenses on the line. rude is another thing entirely.

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 30 January 2004 07:32 (twenty-two years ago)

With the exception of Zone 1 (which doesn't count) North London isn't any better than South London, and I wish people would stop pretending otherwise. I've been to loads of bits of North London that are fucking GRIM, just as bad as Peckham or New Cross or Elephant or any of the other places that lead to the whole of the South being tarred with the same brush.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 30 January 2004 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's miles away from my house" is a fairly valid excuse though, and its probably for that exact reason that I never go to, say, Hampstead or Walthamstow (until next weekend in the latter case).

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 30 January 2004 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not a valid excuse if there's good transport links. T/S Camden + 20 minute walk vs Wimbledon + 2 minute walk.

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 30 January 2004 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

there aren't many places that i'll say i won't go. like the other people that live in the north, i don't tend to go south of the river much, but that's because i don't need to, not because i don't like it or am scared of it. when i visit my friends that live on walworth road (at least once a month)it is a HUGE PAIN to get there.

when i'm back in the states, i can hear myself saying that i won't go to some of the small towns surrounding kalamazoo that consider themselves 'suburbs' like mattawan or richland that just remind me of high school football games and therefore hold no interest for me.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 30 January 2004 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

One moment of which I am not proud is when I let forth a stream of angry obsencities at a taxi driver who refused to go south of the river. In my defence, I'm sure that you would have done the same thing when drunk and grumpy and BUGGER WHERE ON EARTH IS A BUS - AND in Notting Hill...

― Sarah (starry), Friday, 30 January 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish people from the South side of the river would just realise that they are genetically and culturally inferior and accept their place and stay in it, that is, on the bus or the tube, heading North.

::realises boyfriend is from Blackheath and prepares to be beaten up upon return::

― The River Kate (kate), Friday, 30 January 2004 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

*emails Kate's boyfriend, exaggerates insults, poisons his mind against the medusa of the north*

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 30 January 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, and while yer emailing, tell him if he's had another haircut, he's sacked! ;-)

― The River Kate (kate), Friday, 30 January 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

four years pass...

Unsurprisingly, Joel Kotkin sez "Suburbia isn't dead yet!"

― Elvis Telecom, Thursday, 10 July 2008 18:35 (seventeen years ago)

Only white folks say this!

-- andy, Wednesday, January 28, 2004 4:38 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Link

dumb post not tru

― and what, Thursday, 10 July 2008 18:38 (seventeen years ago)

I don't go there if it takes more than an hour to bus to. Why? BECAUSE IT TAKES MORE THAN AN HOUR TO BUS TO

― Will M., Thursday, 10 July 2008 18:50 (seventeen years ago)

This is even stupider in Cleveland, which is just separated by a river, yet people will say "I don't go to the East Side/West Side."

― Pancakes Hackman, Thursday, 10 July 2008 18:58 (seventeen years ago)

except for work i rarely leave my neighborhood or the ones surrounding it. why? because i don't really need to. good bars, the best music venues, and most of my brick and mortar shopping is all done here. i don't have any reason AGAINST other places, just rarely the need to go.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:02 (seventeen years ago)

joel kotkin is a moron.

my ex-professor bites back:

http://www.cp-dr.com/node/2069

― get bent, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:06 (seventeen years ago)

OTM, same here-- i think the problem is more like if I were like "the best _____ restaurant is in ________" and you were like "i don't GO to _______" in spie of something actually being recommended to you there!

― Will M., Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:08 (seventeen years ago)

that that whole "i don't go to ________" without a compelling reason is retarded.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:14 (seventeen years ago)

i remember when i lived in queens some dude was trying to chat me up somewhere and asked me where i lived and when i said queens he was like "ew, why?"

i hate people so much.

― bell_labs, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:18 (seventeen years ago)

i never go to rogers park or edgewater but that's only because without a car (or even with one depending on the time of day) it takes forfuckingever to get up there.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:21 (seventeen years ago)

xpost

queens rules. what a dbag.

― get bent, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:27 (seventeen years ago)

welcome to life as a new jerseyan.

― Eisbaer, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:34 (seventeen years ago)

bell labs = http://www.bearsandbellies.com/kevin_james.jpg

― and what, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:36 (seventeen years ago)

bearsandbellies.com?

― bell_labs, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:38 (seventeen years ago)

welcome to life as a new jerseyan.

-- Eisbaer, Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:34 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

ugh

― carne asada, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:38 (seventeen years ago)

How can Americans return to the cities when the cities with the infrastructure that would justify returning to them are for the most part unaffordable now?

Anyway, suburbs like you get in Connecticut and New Jersey are pretty well hooked up to public transportation, so I doubt the "BosWash" suburbs are going anywhere anytime soon. Seems like more of an LA/Midwest/South problem.

― burt_stanton, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:39 (seventeen years ago)

Heh. Ask people who live in Portland if they ever go voluntarily to Gresham, Camas, Vancouver(WA), Woodburn, Wilsonville(Fry's is a special exception), Clackamas. etc.

― kingfish, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:45 (seventeen years ago)

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