Is the Guardian worse than it used to be?

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My feeling is: Yes, somewhat. But Regular Readers will recall that I am a curmudgeon who doesn't like New Things. So do they really want to agree with me here? Plus, we do have (somewhere round here) a house Guardian expert whose opinion would be interesting.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Some readers might, conceivably, like to know that the Guardian (formerly Manchester Guardian) is a UK daily newspaper which has for several decades been the main print source / gathering-point, as it were, for those on 'The Liberal Left'. Many UK ILE posters, I imagine, know it very well and have done for many years, so I thought there might be some opinions around.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I like the Guardian now more than I have for years. Perhaps the restyle of the mag helped, but generally the Burchill thing works for me and I haven't noticed a drop in quality elsewhere. The Guide has always been shite (and I say that working for PA Listings) but the rest seems cool. Can you specify what's gone wrong for you?

chris, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I hate the Guardian - particularly the G2 section, with it's crappy 'think' pieces, terrible arts reviews and smug phillistinism - and have bought it every weekday and Saturdays for at least the last fifteen years. Because, being a bleeding heart liberal and a news junkie, I couldn't bring myself to read any of the other rags (morning papers are somehow part of my going to work coping ritual.) I flirted with the Independent for a while - and the IOS still has the great film critic David Thomson writing for 'em - but I found it to be even more boring than the Guardian. I suspect that I am far from alone in all this, and that the Guardian survives on the unearned good will of the liberal middle classes.

Funnily enough, I quite like the Guide, partly because Joe Queenan and Byron Coley sometimes write for it, partly because it means I no longer have to buy that useless piece of toss Time Out anymore.

Andrew L, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I've never actually bought a copy of the Guardian, if I did buy a newspaper I'd get the Telegraph, it has a good weather section, obituaries, world news briefs and I like the sports section.

james e l, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I suppose the short answer is 'Trivialization'. One has to be a tad careful using a word like that, because, for instance,

1. The simplification of the accusation may just echo what it asserts about the target (just as 'Dumbing Down' is a dumb, dull phrase);

2. If I don't like Triviality, why don't I read nothing but 10-page reports from the former Yugoslavia? It would be hypocritical of me to say that I simply wanted them to be SERIOUS and SOLEMN and RESPONSIBLE all the time. No, that's not it.

What I mean, I suppose, is that too many features, esp. in G2, now look dashed-off - half-hearted, half-baked, unconvincing, just cliché pies really. Today's Lara Croft piece was just the latest of a million examples. It feels (the terms are problematic here, I know) JOURNALISTIC in a bad way - trite, unconsidered, full of crowd- pleasing Received Ideas - rather than JOURNALISTIC in a good way (that is: dogged, resourceful, brave, mentally agile, snappy and what have you).

It's the world of second-hand Lifestyle phrases that bugs me. The way that adults can still write a phrase like "*that* dress" and not hang their heads in shame.

A rider to all my bile, though, is that my previous, more impressed impressions of the Guardian may just reflect youthful impressionability. (Sentence!) Maybe the same kind of crap used to impress me that now feels rubbishy, faux-zeitgeisty and embarrassing? Maybe, but I suspect it's a bit of both.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Andrew L: I know what you mean - the Labour party factor of Nowhere Else To Go? (And brand loyalty, or whatever you want to call it.) There's actually a Verso book out (yet?) which makes a massive attack on the Guardian as home of neo-conservative (ie New Labour) ideas. I find this rather unconvincing and overstated. Even offensive, come to think of it.

I agree about Queenan too. But most of all, I agree about Thomson. There's almost no point having a thread about Thomson, because people who know what they think about him already know it all and would just send in superlatives.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Andrew L, and indeed everyone: cut em loose and let em drown in their own smug laziness!! I stopped buying it a YEAR ago FOREVER and now buy NO NEWSPAPER and am FREE. (Actually I too buy saturday for the guide — and for the food page in the mag, but the mag redesign is utter shit, and the recipes are in fact on long recycle: eg I have seen Lady Llandower's Duck three times now, always copied (of course) from Elizabeth David Salt, Spices and Aromatics...) The age of the newspaper is dead.

mark s, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Something has clearly gone wrong with G2: the other week they ran a page-long feature on the phenomenon of "Jumping the shark" (referring to that moment when a long-running tv fave finally loses the plot completely, apparently derived from a late episode of Happy Days where Fonzie, yes, jumped a shark). This was all well and good (except it was inane and ripped off from a website [this is a whole other can of worms]), but they ran an almost IDENTICAL story in the Guide not two weeks previously. Do they not read their own paper, or did they simply think the readers wouldn't notice?

What the paper still has going for it: George Monbiot's column, the Diary, Steve Bell, giving review space to Ians Sansom and Penman, and the tv columns of Nancy Banks-Smith. (When N B-S finally pops her clogs I will have to think very hard about buying the paper.)

What is leading the paper ever closer to the abyss: consistently terrible pop coverage (honorable exceptions: Maddy Costa, Betty Clarke); the fatuous new Saturday mag (Zoe Ball on dressing? match the celebrity with the pet? that awful woman talking about words that should be banned??); Charlotte bloody Raven.

stevie t, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

What I mean, I suppose, is that too many features, esp. in G2, now look dashed-off - half-hearted, half-baked, unconvincing, just cliché pies really. (Pinefox)

I agree with you there. They sucker you in with the G2 front cover (and the masthead of the main paper), but when you get to read the cover story it often appears cobbled together and lightweight. I imagine it must be difficult to fill that space with high quality stories day in day out though.

David, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Stevie: agree about Steve Bell, of course. I mean, if only for the sake of 1981 and all that. But actually, he draws and paints better now.

I actually like Peter Preston's awkward, staccato opinion pieces, come to think of it. But not the pompous ones of Hugo Young. Freedland is sometimes good at summing political issues up, but usually he 'sums up' too much - there's too much glibness in the way he marshals it all. (I admit again, though, that it's easy - even glib - to call someone glib.)

Penman strikes me as a red herring. I can see that he doesn't do that to you, cos you have some kind of investment in his career. I agree about Sansom (great left-back, mean penalty, blah blah) - in fact I think that the whole Saturday book reviews section is quite possibly the best feature of the paper. EXCEPT of course the footy. Heroes? How could I forget David Lacey?

BUT I think that you are wrong about N B-S. It doesn't surprise me that older folk make that judgement about her; it does rather surprise me coming from you. She has skills, I guess, but she's terribly repetitive; uses the same lines on the same topics year in year out. It's all too - yes - glib and easy, while dressed up to look aged and thus wise.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I agree with much of what's been said. After Mark Steel and Jeremy Hardy went, it didn't seem as essential anymore. The Observer's the same - just dear old Phil Hogan that still makes me go down the shops Sunday morning

jamesmichaelward, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

My parents used to get a subscription to the Guardian shipped to them for the first few years they were in the States, because they couldn't trust the US Media. The Guardian just isn't the same when it's not printed on that semi-transluscent airmail paper.

I only read it for the Guide and the job listings. Not that either has been particularly helpful lately... ;-)

masonic boom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Steve Bell is a GOD but apart from that I read it largely out of having nowhere else to go and a worry that I'll become totally detached from the world if I don't read any newspapers at all. I think it might have marginally improved with the loss of Messrs. Hardy and Steel though. Everything they wrote was just as predictable and smug as any of the other writers mentioned above, only with a more left wing stance.

Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't read anything except the Spectator. Hey Chris, if you work for PA Listings then that means you're in the same building as me.

tarden, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

The Guide last week (or was it the week before) had that BRILLIANT article slamming not just the Strokes, but the entire music hype industry... VERY funny because it was so clearly written by an insider who had been participating in the music hype game for so long.

masonic boom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd love to comment, but those Observer commissions are keeping me out of the poor house. Anything appearing in the Guardian or the Obs by my deepest and dearest friends is obviously genius...

Mark Morris, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

As bad as the Guardian may have become, it's still better than the so-called "best" American newspapers. Or, if you think it couldn't get worse, it could end up becoming The New York Times or The Washington Post.

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Reynard's right about the amount of trivial toss that gets in there. Mark's also right about the decline of the newspaper in general. Reynard's spot on re. New Labour - the Guardian's frequent criticism of some Blairite attitudes is one of the great things about it.

There's a lot of irritating stuff, yes. My favourite columnist is George Monbiot, by a mile. Something I like about the Independent when I do get it is that its liberalism is less metropolitan and more about the common good. Needless to say, though, the Guardian's series of articles on public service under that very title were awesome.

The Hemulen Who Loved Silence, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

OK, agree with the Hemulen re. The Common Good.

Today's G2 seems designed to add fuel to my (f)ire: one page of 'Style' after another, including a column on Why We're So Disappointed That Madonna Employs A Stylist.

the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Although Toynbee's piece on Labour post-election is admirable.

blue veils and golden sands, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Broadly I agree with her, yes. It feels a wee bit ironic given her immediately-pre-election pieces telling everyone how urgent it was to overcome apathy and vote for the people she's now criticizing. (But actually I think she was right both times.)

Also good in Guardian: John Patterson re. cinema.

the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

six years pass...

oh god, ask hadley today is just... tooth-grinding.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:17 (thirteen years ago) link


Dom Passantino, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:17 (thirteen years ago) link

"At what age is a man too old to wear band T-shirts?"

Martin McCall, by email

"About 15 - that young enough for you, Martin? And to follow one rhetorical question with several more, what in God's name is the point of band T-shirts anyway? To show your allegiance to a band? Do you think anyone else cares? To impress onlookers with your esoteric musical knowledge? See previous reply. To make people stare at your bony chest? Again, I refer you to the first answer. To show that you once attended a live gig? Wow, like, a pair of golden headsets to the guy in the Nirvana '91 T-shirt. In case you happen to bump into the lead singer on the street, he sees that the two of you are kindred souls and therefore invites you to join his band and you then go on the road and have all the manly bonding sessions followed by groupies that your heart could desire? OK, I'll give you that one, although this does suggest that you still harbour the fantasy that you might bump into Joey Ramone in Waterstone's.

"As for ladies in band T-shirts, give me a fricking break. First, gals, a badly cut, poorly made, oversized T-shirt is good for nothing other than wearing to bed and the gym. Second, too often women who wear band T-shirts appear to be going for what we shall call Groupie Chic. It is a style amply modelled by Kate Moss in recent years, and can pretty much be summed up as skinny faded black jeans, ankle boots, a ripped band T-shirt and a cropped fur jacket. In other words, a girlified version of Marc Bolan's or Keith Richards' wardrobe, as though the woman has been so busy, um, sleeping on the band bus she hasn't had time to clean her clothes, so she's now wearing ones belonging to her musical companion. This column has no time for such nonsense."

Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Yeah, because women have *no* interest in music whatsoever except for sleeping with musicians. What CENTURY is this cretin from?

Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:21 (thirteen years ago) link

I think I stopped wearing band T-shirts by the time I was 23. It wasn't necessarily a conscious move tho. I doubt I will ever wear one again tho - I guess it seems lame unless it's an old obscure or overlooked thus hip act (even this I dunno about). I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them. Does Matt DC still have that Save Ferris T?

I only want to sleep with musicians if they are hot as they are (their musical ability is pretty irrelevant in fact).

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link

dear teh grauniad - a long time ago/we used to be friends...

CharlieNo4, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:32 (thirteen years ago) link

It went downhill after I left.

Dom Passantino, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:33 (thirteen years ago) link

or were you PUSHED?

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:35 (thirteen years ago) link

heh. (sorry alex, no harm intended)

CharlieNo4, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:36 (thirteen years ago) link

i was being harsh really. i don't care what's on other people's t-shirts that much. just trying to work out why i stopped wearing/wouldn't wear band t-shirts myself.

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:37 (thirteen years ago) link

Any t-shirt which isn't plain white clearly sucks that's why.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link

i couldn't agree less

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link

I still wear band t-shirts if I like the band. Why not? I don't *define* myself or my personality by my music tastes any more, I haven't done that since I was about 18. But that's not the same thing as wearing a band t-shirt.

I suppose the fashion journalist in discussion cannot fathom the idea that clothes are just something you put on, rather than a definition of or statement about your personality.

This is definitely something that happens as you age - or rather, has happened to me as I aged. There's a subtle difference between Statement Clothes and just things you put on.

Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link

Guardian editorial worldview circa 2007:

tissp, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:41 (thirteen years ago) link

why else would you buy a band t-shirt if not as a statement or definition of personality?

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:44 (thirteen years ago) link

I didn't know it was a band t-shirt okay?

Matt DC, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:45 (thirteen years ago) link

because you're cold xp

tissp, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:45 (thirteen years ago) link

In the past I've usually just bought them as a keepsake of a gig I've enjoyed. The piece tracer quotes is idiotic fluff, obv. I'd be embarrased to admit I'd written that.

Pashmina, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:46 (thirteen years ago) link

Because you like the design? Because you like the music? Because it was given to you (this is where most of mine come from)? Because it was a souvenier?


Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:46 (thirteen years ago) link

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

given to you = not you buying

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:48 (thirteen years ago) link

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

No, plus I've only ever bought them @ gigs.

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

Probably yeah, but w/smaller bands there's also the knowledge that in buying it, yr helping to supposrt the tour.

Pashmina, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link

i actually bought a comets on fire t-shirt solely because the design was so awesome. (it was at a gig, but they hadn't come on stage yet.) then i heard the music and i liked that too. i suppose if i hadn't liked their music, or thought it was boring, it would have posed a problem.

a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless so that alex in nyc doesn't stalk and kill him, bought a huge iron maiden patch when he was 14 and sewed it across the shoulders of his denim jacket. he had never heard a note of iron maiden, but he wound up becoming the biggest iron maiden fan i know, and even sung in a band later, where his vocal style was almost inseparable from bruce dickinson's.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:53 (thirteen years ago) link

my take on this: do not read hadley freeman.

this resolution made some time ago, stands as strong today as it ever did.

it's a crass and deliberately invidious piece of writing. such an attitude, if sincerely held, could be turned around on pretty much ANY choice of clothing. so forgeddaboudit

Alan, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:53 (thirteen years ago) link

the last band t-shirt i bought - robyn!

alan i can't help myself, i know i'm sick and need help.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:54 (thirteen years ago) link

is there a thread for best band t-shirts? must see

blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Taste is something that I have. It does not define me. Clothes are something I wear. The statement I am making is "I don't really care about clothes any more."

If I'm going to make a statement about clothes, I'll wear a bright green paisley jacket to a dronerock festival where everyone else is in leather.

I suppose my Hawkwind t-shirt is a statement, it says "ha ha, I'm wearing a Hawkwind t-shirt, I care nothing for fashion, I am wearing the shirt of a band so deeply uncool you can suck my left one because I love them!" But it's certainly not a statement saying that I want to f*ck any of Hawkwind or that I have a musician boyfriend whose Hawkwind t-shirt I'm borrowing, which is the assumption of that article.

Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:56 (thirteen years ago) link

> I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them.


> you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

EAR t-shirt with the putney on the front = great. EAR live = terrible. (EAR on CD = ok, plus pram and stereolab were supporting)

koogs, Monday, 3 September 2007 15:03 (thirteen years ago) link

is it though

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 24 February 2021 15:32 (two months ago) link

makes u think

you are like a scampicane, there's calm in your fries (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 24 February 2021 15:36 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

"For years, I’ve read stories about conditions at Amazon and thought: “That’s terrible.” But I’ve never felt terrible enough to change my behaviour and cancel my account. I’ve always found ways to justify using the service. It’s so damn convenient, after all. And I’m clearly not the only one who bypasses my principles in the name of convenience. Jeff Bezos could boast about how he likes drowning kittens in his spare time and, I’m pretty sure, people would continue to use Amazon."

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 6 April 2021 21:31 (one month ago) link

lol that columnist and that blank look in her profile pic

plax (ico), Tuesday, 6 April 2021 21:49 (one month ago) link

it's just the monkey columnist face tbh

imago, Tuesday, 6 April 2021 21:56 (one month ago) link

she’s quitting Prime. presumably she’s keeping her non-Prime account.

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 6 April 2021 22:24 (one month ago) link

Marina Hyde, actually, writes:

People are far more performative online in accordance with their consciousness of being watched. My colleague Jonathan Freedland made me laugh recently when he noted how Twitter had turned everyone into the archbishop of Canterbury, somehow feeling that every major news story requires them to issue an official statement.

the pinefox, Thursday, 15 April 2021 09:39 (three weeks ago) link

know your place, proles.

Fizzles, Thursday, 15 April 2021 09:47 (three weeks ago) link

know your place, proles.

maybe there’s a new category in our world: “information proles”.

Fizzles, Thursday, 15 April 2021 09:48 (three weeks ago) link

terrible that people that don't come from landed gentry backgrounds or have the connections to get a job at the Graun .. that these filthy nobodies can publish their own thoughts online without their approval!

calzino, Thursday, 15 April 2021 09:55 (three weeks ago) link

I like how Marina's *hilarious* weekly writings in the Graun are like a stream of unrestrained consciousness and are not playing to the gallery at all.

calzino, Thursday, 15 April 2021 10:00 (three weeks ago) link

If I had shagged Piers Morgan I’d probably wind my aristocratic neck in from time to time on the subject of others’ foibles tbh

Scamp Granada (gyac), Thursday, 15 April 2021 10:23 (three weeks ago) link

I genuinely wonder what expertise Freedland imagines he has, other than in maintaining a public platform for thirty years.

Anxiety about populism / lack of faith in experts is all over the press but what kind of standing does he imagine 'journalist parents - PPE degree - opinions4U' gives him to dribble out a column five days a week on whatever happens to be in the headlines.

Scampo di tutti i Scampi (ShariVari), Thursday, 15 April 2021 10:39 (three weeks ago) link

Born to rule.

Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 April 2021 10:48 (three weeks ago) link

Freedland has his regular radio 4 gig as well The Long View. Shockingly it's an absolute stinker of a program and he consistently stays on brand and usually seems to be feigning some kind of examination into events of the past and making a comparison with current events, but if you've read him and know his schtick it might be time flip to another station because you know where it is going.

calzino, Thursday, 15 April 2021 10:50 (three weeks ago) link

I agree with these comments, but also find it remarkable, and awful in a way, to learn that Hyde *actually reads Freedland's work*, and *laughs at it*, when he writes unfunny things.

the pinefox, Thursday, 15 April 2021 11:24 (three weeks ago) link

Maybe I would imagine that they all know that each other are bad, and would never *actually bother reading* each other - leaving that for mere Guardian buyers? (A bit like the rank cynicism of the family in the novel WHAT A CARVE UP! (1994)?)

the pinefox, Thursday, 15 April 2021 11:26 (three weeks ago) link

if they don't believe in each other who will

new display name (Left), Thursday, 15 April 2021 11:28 (three weeks ago) link

I don't find it hard to believe these people who all go to the same dinner parties genuinely do find each other funny and insightful, after all they never listen to anyone outside the bubble anyway

new display name (Left), Thursday, 15 April 2021 11:30 (three weeks ago) link

i'm not quite this bad wrt routine but i'm definitely feeling this guy. the bit about birdsong made me sad tho.

oscar bravo, Friday, 16 April 2021 13:54 (three weeks ago) link

Ooft, wow. That's both immensely life-affirming and immensely sad somehow. What a great wee piece of writing.

brain (krakow), Sunday, 18 April 2021 11:28 (three weeks ago) link

Reading the Mabinogion eating ma big onion

jammy mcnullity (wins), Sunday, 18 April 2021 11:30 (three weeks ago) link

I need to know how he eats the onion

Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 18 April 2021 11:57 (three weeks ago) link

I'm guessing he chews it into a bolus which goes down his oesophagus into his stomach

Call of Scampi: Slack Nephrops (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 18 April 2021 13:26 (three weeks ago) link

Nobody who is "unskilled" interviewed here ofc

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 22 April 2021 09:43 (two weeks ago) link

I usually pick a single, brilliant sentence when I tweet masterpieces like this from @rafaelbehr. But there are simply too many to choose from. Every line stings like a bee!

— James O'Brien (@mrjamesob) April 28, 2021

the pinefox, Wednesday, 28 April 2021 15:25 (one week ago) link

One to go alongside Calzino's list of Marina Hyde eulogies.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 28 April 2021 15:26 (one week ago) link

big 'from our vauxhall office' whiff off this one:

plax (ico), Saturday, 1 May 2021 17:18 (one week ago) link

Should send a link to this thread as a 'birthday message' to The Guardian

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 5 May 2021 14:04 (five days ago) link

send Marina Hyde back in time to the early 19th century to put those dastardly Salford yeomanry in their place with her rapier wit.

calzino, Wednesday, 5 May 2021 14:24 (five days ago) link

Pretty compelling evidence that it has never been good:

- Argued for martial law during the Irish famine
- Supported the confederacy
- Editorialised for white supremacy and "unfaltering confidence in our right to rule over the native population by virtue of inherent superiority"
- criticised suffragist direct action
- dismissed Palestinian rights in the founding of Israel

Piedie Gimbel, Saturday, 8 May 2021 16:43 (two days ago) link

haha i cant be the only person that opened that and crtl+f-ed "iraq"

plax (ico), Saturday, 8 May 2021 16:44 (two days ago) link

2 save u time: "no results found"

plax (ico), Saturday, 8 May 2021 16:45 (two days ago) link


xyzzzz__, Saturday, 8 May 2021 16:50 (two days ago) link

i've talked to more than one person who has defended the guardian as not totally irredeemable by citing its strong stance against the war, it's amazing what people remember and how

Left, Saturday, 8 May 2021 16:53 (two days ago) link

ctrl+f Starmer "no results found"

Dan Worsley, Saturday, 8 May 2021 16:54 (two days ago) link

The Obs was full tankie while the Graun was neutral/opposed iirc.

Piedie Gimbel, Saturday, 8 May 2021 17:06 (two days ago) link

this needs to be ten times as long. no mention for example of publishing explicit defences of islamophobia (by name!) at a time of unprecedented state violence against muslims. or the trans eliminationism they've been pushing relentlessly lately which has literally killed people. minor shit like yvette cooper and owen smith and dave miliband is merely embarrasing in comparison. this riskless water under the bridge shit will still be taken for bravery by those who want to believe

Left, Saturday, 8 May 2021 17:30 (two days ago) link

how about publishing known sex pests like michael white and nick cohen (tip of the iceberg) while posturing as some kind of feminist publication (in order to attack muslims, black women, sex workers, trans people...) - maybe we'll get a mea culpa for that in 50 years

Left, Saturday, 8 May 2021 17:40 (two days ago) link

Don’t forget Hadley Freeman defending Woody Allen on at least two occasions

i read the TERF’s woody allen article so you don’t have to: it’s execrable stuff

— wanton dialectic-haver (@sharcoal) May 29, 2020

Scamp Granada (gyac), Saturday, 8 May 2021 17:50 (two days ago) link

forgot about that there's so much awful to keep track of. burn it all down

Left, Saturday, 8 May 2021 17:58 (two days ago) link


It is difficult for a leader of the opposition to be heard so soon after the election of a new prime minister to whom voters delivered a resounding majority and who is broadly considered to be performing well. The expectation that Labour could transform its fortunes just 18 months after its historic 2019 defeat, its worst showing in almost 100 years, was always unrealistic.

Note: "broadly considered to be performing well".

the pinefox, Sunday, 9 May 2021 07:06 (yesterday) link

they;re v quiet on the old observer today, but that whole editorial is an amazing exercise in putting your fingers in your ears

plax (ico), Sunday, 9 May 2021 07:11 (yesterday) link

There was no position on Brexit that would have avoided losing the party votes.

The Guardian / Observer / John Harris position of attacking JC for Labour failure, till someone else is Labour leader, then blaming long-term trends beyond the leader's control.


Internally, in the name of party unity, he has shied away from addressing hard truths with his membership about the need to speak from beyond the activist comfort zone.

These people have not noticed that he has deliberately atttacked and alienated most of his activists, and as a result of his actions there is no-one left to knock on doors, or even send the party a fiver a month.

the pinefox, Sunday, 9 May 2021 07:13 (yesterday) link

they have noticed, they just want him to do more!

plax (ico), Sunday, 9 May 2021 07:18 (yesterday) link

What activists?

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:42 (yesterday) link

Rawnsley has been well paid to know about these things for over 30 years

Thus, unlike most of us, does not notice that KS's Labour, rather than 'slowly bouncing back', has performed worse than JC's, nor that socialists have locally outperformed KS's Labour.

the pinefox, Sunday, 9 May 2021 15:17 (yesterday) link

i think if you consider that rawnsley etc are not really being paid to do analysis but to craft a narrative you can read these columnists with different expectations

plax (ico), Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:08 (yesterday) link

lol at them getting his name wrong in url

koogs, Sunday, 9 May 2021 19:06 (yesterday) link

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