Big Ron does a Kilroy...

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but ALL all races are united in lamenting the loss of a commentating legend

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/3648051.stm

schoolboy error?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 18:55 (twenty years ago) link

Gosh. It's a bit hard to know how to react when I don't know what he said. Ananova seem to have removed the story.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago) link

Ah, OK it seems to be there now, but like the BBC, doesn't give details.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:02 (twenty years ago) link

"I was one of the first managers in the game to give black players a chance"

Is it me or does this read really badly?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:05 (twenty years ago) link

Ron's from the old school. Yes, it reads badly.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:07 (twenty years ago) link

That is true, but Ron did refer to Cyrille Regis, Laurie Cunningham and Brendan Batson as "The Three Degrees", which does undo a lot of that good work.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:11 (twenty years ago) link

Ok, this from This Is Lincolnshire, of all places:

The comments were understood to have been directed at Chelsea's Marcel Desailly, who is black. Atkinson is believed to have called the defender a "f***ing lazy nigger".

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=116154&command=displayContent&sourceNode=116153&contentPK=9672009

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:12 (twenty years ago) link

!!!

Ron this is totally unacceptable!!!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:15 (twenty years ago) link

I'm ashamed to say I am actually laughing out loud. Jesus Christ.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago) link

Oh dear oh dear, he's ruined it now.

― Barry Davies (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago) link

Good old Lincolnshire Echo, starring out all the right words.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:17 (twenty years ago) link

I can't believe even Ron would do this.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:19 (twenty years ago) link

that starring it top nothc.

I can't believe it, either. I thought it would be slightly less offensive even if it was still really offensive.

nick has me thinking like 'kim possible': 'ron acceptable'.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago) link

I wonder if he will get a good drink out of his retirement package?

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:25 (twenty years ago) link

This does not compare with the time he was heard to say "are there any sandwiches"

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:28 (twenty years ago) link

I was about to post about how the formatting of the offending phrase had me in stitches but of course N beat me to it.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:29 (twenty years ago) link

"any fucking sandwiches," ronan.
you know i honestly think with ron, saying "lazy nigger" would be like caling scholes a "lazy ginga." which is not to say he should say it, but... there are some battles worth fighting, and some not.

this really is a pity. i hope he can make some donation to charity or something and get back on tv, it's the whole world's loss. i cannot think of anyone in the media world today who has quite the same way with the neologism.

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:41 (twenty years ago) link

As I recall, he was one of the big outspoken supporters of black players when many people were still making cretinous racist generalisations about them, so this is particularly disappointing. I suppose what Matthew means might be that he's of a generation that probably grasps a little less well how horrible that is, but even that only reduces the offence by a few percent, say - it's still way beyond the line where some donation to charity gets him his job back, for me. It's a shame, as I've always enjoyed him as a commentator, and never spotted any sign of racism, any difference in the way he discussed black and white players.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:45 (twenty years ago) link

Does calling someone a racial epithet automatically make you a racist?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:49 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not sure he shouldn't be allowed to make an apology and return. I guess it's just hard to believe he's maliciously racist.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:51 (twenty years ago) link

(minute's silence)

Now all that's over, what's a Kilroy? Is it the same as a Matthew Kelly. If so, what's a Matthew Kelly? Sorry, I've been in France with all the fucking Frogs. Oops.

― Will McKenzie, Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:52 (twenty years ago) link

that is pretty much what i'm saying, martin. i don't think he should use the word, but i can't be convinced from that usage that he's a racist.
i've always had a problem with this sort of thing. i do'nt want innocuous but striking statements like i believe ron made to be censured. on the other hand, one man like ron might influence another like (gulp) lee bowyer, and we really don't want any more fucking bowyers about.
i think, much like the discipline we should have with children, if they say sorry and they appear to mean it, then we ought to forgive.

(this really happened - a pakistani friend of mine was out with a chinese friend of his, will. will saw martin, also chinese, across the road, but martin didn't notice will. will said to my pakistani friend, "i can't believe martin didn't see me!" my pakistanie friend said, "oh don't worry, you all look alike to him.
obviously that's not a racist joke, that's a joke about racism.)

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 19:55 (twenty years ago) link

Matthew, if the quote is accurate, what Big Ron said is a bit more than just a "innocuous(sic) but striking statement"

I imagine that after a while, most football managers begin to develop a kind of master-slave relationship w/ players: Ron perhaps has simply laid open an institutional sporting attitude toward the ownership+control of bodies that is often, but not always or exclusively, racist. Ron's rhetoric, of course, sadly feeds into the foul old myth that black football players are skillful but greedy/lazy/moody/afraid of the cold, and all that shit

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 20:07 (twenty years ago) link

i understand that as a possibility but it seems particularly unlikely to me, especially given modern football where you have the industrious sorts of viera and campbell and desailly leading the defences of the top teams in the country. it basically comes down to the fact that i don't believe ron is a bad man, only that he said a bad word because he isn't as fully schooled in its badness as us younger sorts.

an institutional sporting attitude toward the ownership+control of bodies
i'm not sure of this - most managers want "charachter" as much as they want obedience.

granted though, innocuous was not the right word to use there. i meant that he didn't use it with the full baggage of wanting to employ those stereotypes.

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago) link

My friendster profile is named Big Ron, yet this thread is not about me. :O(

― |OBEY|EYE|BO| (deangulberry), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 20:22 (twenty years ago) link

the foul old myth that black football players are skillful but greedy/lazy/moody/afraid of the cold, and all that shit

Surely that myth concerns foreign players, not specifically black players. For whatever that's worth.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

It probably does nowadays. Back in the late 70's and 80's, any black player who was getting grief from racist fans/players etc and complained about it would be accused of having a chip on their shoulder. Shorthand for greedy/lazy/moody/black.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 20:29 (twenty years ago) link

But I think Ron was a real opponent of that attitude back then - that's why this has surprised me.

Nigger hasn't become an unacceptable word recently. It was a loathsome insult 'even' in the '60s, which is as far back as I can confidently remember. That's why I said Ron's different generation makes only a small difference.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 20:47 (twenty years ago) link

Ron's favourite player ever is Dalian Atkinson. Look at his jewellery, too - he's a 'brother'! Or something.

Oh Ron. A fool in every direction.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 21:16 (twenty years ago) link

Radio Five Live is riddled with people using the (ridiculous) phrase "the 'N' word".

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 21:37 (twenty years ago) link

what should they say?

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 21:38 (twenty years ago) link

Clearly they should say "NIGGER! NIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGER! HA HA!" and then hang up.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 21:41 (twenty years ago) link

That's TalkSport.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 21:42 (twenty years ago) link

Hmmmmm, I wonder what ill-thought out statement by a famous football pundit will win this competition:

http://www.thinkclear.co.uk/Expressions/

― Jim paper-jam, Wednesday, 21 April 2004 21:50 (twenty years ago) link

PWN£D!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:16 (twenty years ago) link

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1200319,00.html

i may have to rescind some of my earlier comments

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:24 (twenty years ago) link

What made the difference?

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:26 (twenty years ago) link

because he called him thick?

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:29 (twenty years ago) link

(Thanks to my previous post, I now have a particularly virulent variation of "Born Slippy" running through my head.)

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:32 (twenty years ago) link

(I think that the fact that he chose to hand in his resignation and is so publicly penitent without qualification speaks as many volumes as the fact that he made the statement.)

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:36 (twenty years ago) link

"lazy fucking nigger" sounds off hand (not acceptable) and i've heard people use words like that who i know aren't hateful people.
the "some schools" thing is a stiletto in the eye. it sounds like he thought about what he said.

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:38 (twenty years ago) link

you're accusing ron of being a transvestite as well as a racist? maybe you could get him to apologise about that, too.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:41 (twenty years ago) link

no, no, the lesson we must all learn from this dreadful incident which shames us all is that we must respect one anothers differences.

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:44 (twenty years ago) link

I just wish he hadn't said it, regardless of his real thoughts on race.

Now loads of people will be like "Ahh, poor Ron, hounded out by the poncey liberal elite", which will only fuel racism. But if he hadn't gone, then there would be an uproar at it being condoned, and fair enough - it would have sent a horrible message.

His apologising unreservedly makes the best of a bad job, really.

*sigh*

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:46 (twenty years ago) link

i think we should try to remember happier times by going over classic ron quotes.

"ooh, he's circumnavigated him there..."

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:53 (twenty years ago) link

On another forum, it's being pointed out that a recent interview in Observer Sport Monthly said Ron held 'forthright views on asylum seekers'. He is also apparently got a rep for being free and easy with racial epithets; he once 'had a good laugh' with cyrille Regis by saying that Cyril, in his wolves kit, looked like a bruised banana.

Bigot Ron has also said that he apologises for what is 'purported to be a racist remark'. Purported? Samuel L Jackson could say the original remark and it not be racist. Big Ron's not a pimp in the hood, thought he is blinged up to the max.

The sad thing is that I never thought this of him - this isn't a moment of madness which tarnishes a career (Big Ron laid low by off-the cuff remark and the PC brigade) , but something that makes you reevaluate that career as you reevaluate the man. He had to go. No question.

x-post with N.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:55 (twenty years ago) link

I didn't want to disagree with the folk upthread without facts to hand, but this 'purported' thing has made me change my mind. I'm sure I've heard him make dodgy commentary remarks before. Not like this, obviously, but just weird little jokes, grouping black players together with a kind of 'one of the black lads' remark. Maybe it was Motson or someone, but I don't think so. Anyway.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 22:59 (twenty years ago) link

I wish 'bigot ron' had been less inevitable or that I had realised that it was before it happened.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 23:01 (twenty years ago) link

where does it say the purported thing? because it's loking increasingly like i am absolutely wrong, which i will accept with good grace.

― matthew james (matthew james), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 23:03 (twenty years ago) link

Perhaps the Guardian could re-employ this soon-to-be-notorious 'Bigot Ron' in a new, hilariously ironic capacity, like they've done with Ann Widdecombe and the problem page.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 21 April 2004 23:05 (twenty years ago) link

Skipping 138 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You've got to question Clive Tyldsley's commitment here....

― de, Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:11 (twenty years ago) link

He's what's known in some schools as a Drac-faced, Pecky McBeak Birdman.

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:13 (twenty years ago) link

(Incidentally these schools Ron is referring to; does he mean Eton, Harrow etc.)

― de, Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:30 (twenty years ago) link

i think what he said is totally unacceptable,but if were talking about unenlightened views in football,the fact that the likes of woodgate and bowyer are still employed is a million times worse...

― robin (robin), Monday, 26 April 2004 04:28 (twenty years ago) link

interesting piece in the Observer yesterday where they sent Michael Eboda, editor of New Nation, the leading newspaper for the black community to talk to him:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1202686,00.html

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 26 April 2004 07:48 (twenty years ago) link

hmmm when Eboda attempts to explain to RA the "nigger vs nigga"/"queer vs gay" deal, he doesn't seem (to me) to be very much less at sea than Ron himself: viz "I explain that some young black people have, in an attempt to lessen the effectiveness of the word, used the term nigger, or nigga, as they spell it, as a term of endearment. I also tell him that most African Caribbeans see such people as misguided imbeciles." The second sentence may be correct, but as a version of the (American) history of the word's usage and how this changed (and how it didn't), the first sentence is simply not true.

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 14:50 (twenty years ago) link

But Bowyer and Woodgate are not employed to offer us their views. I don't find them acceptable people, obviously, but their offences (wasn't one of them found not guilty anyway, in fact?) are less directly related to what they are paid for.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 26 April 2004 17:01 (twenty years ago) link

Excellent point in today's Graun (or was it yesterday's Observer?) that saying one word stopped Ron writing for a newspaper but Richard Desmond's tirade has no impact on his ownership of one.

― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 26 April 2004 17:05 (twenty years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Jimmy Hill wades in...

"What about jokes about my long chin? I mean, nigger is black - so we have jokes where we call them niggers because they're black. Why should that be any more of an offence than someone calling me chinny?"

Gosh.

― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:49 (nineteen years ago) link

umm, cause you never had ancestors put to work as slaves because they had long chins, yeah?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:54 (nineteen years ago) link

jesus WADES IN really is the correct description

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Hill seemingly oblivious to the baggage of racial slurs. It's not the term, it's the associations. Even if the protagonist is not an aggressive racist (which Atkinson clearly isn't).

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:56 (nineteen years ago) link

the logic of the argument is akin to 'Paki's just an abbreviation, like Brit' - but nobody says 'Brit' in a spiteful tone like that

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Yeah, but e's done well for a chinny, aint e?

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:00 (nineteen years ago) link

i dont think atkinson will be as pleased about this 'support' as hill might imagine he would be

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:00 (nineteen years ago) link

i wonder what that noble bastion of the beautiful game (read pompous reactionary buffoon) Jeff Powell makes of it all...

okay i've stopped wondering now.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:02 (nineteen years ago) link

Let us not forget that this comes from a man who famously, in a live FA Cup tie between Leeds and Man Utd, pondered whether Leeds' poor defending at corners came from their use of two African footballers - reasoning that they probably weren't as clever as the other footballers. No, really.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:11 (nineteen years ago) link

Also Alan Green of Five Live referring to Sun Ji Hi as "Number 27 - chicken chow mein".

Aaah, loveable racist banter.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:19 (nineteen years ago) link

Exactly why don't you people rise up and cover morons like this in creosote? I mean, it's the least to be done.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:22 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm shocked at Alan Green. Not Jimmy Hill, mind.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:31 (nineteen years ago) link

Scotland to thread: We hate Jimmy Hill, he's a pouf...

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Why can't Andy Townsend say something like this? I'd love to see him hounded out of a job. Also, Robbie Earle's face would be a picture.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Des Lynam: "Andy, Shaun Wright-Phillips is having a good season, should he be looking for a England place?"
Andy Townsend "No Des. He's black".

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Unfortunately for you Townsend is as racist as he is Irish

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:49 (nineteen years ago) link

i imagine he'll be sacked by sky pretty soon?

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:09 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't think sky would sack him just for *defending* ron's remarks. he would have to use the n-word himself (or something similar), rather than defend the use of it, to be fired. hill's remarks are supremely ignorant, but i don't see him losing his job for this.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:25 (nineteen years ago) link

i'm inclined to think of Hill as naive rather than ignorant but i could be wrong.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:50 (nineteen years ago) link

What's the difference?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Wow. Is it too late to withdraw my 'we treasure Hill' remark?
Actually I remember an emphasis on his 'patriotism' in a channel 4 profile about him; I chastised myself at the time for seeing anything wrong in that. But there was definitely a touch of little Englander about it.
He's ignorant and witless not naive. He's an experienced guy. For some reason he thinks it still the 1950s. (or 60s or 70s...).

― de, Thursday, 13 May 2004 19:21 (nineteen years ago) link

That strikes me as far worse than Big Ron's comments, to be honest. I hope Jimmy Hill finds himself out of work for this.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 13 May 2004 21:05 (nineteen years ago) link

exactly martin - it seems to be an order of magnitude worse to me. at least ron didn't offer (much) defence and apologised.

― toby (tsg20), Friday, 14 May 2004 05:01 (nineteen years ago) link

hill is always v "pro-england", that twattish st george's bow-tie he used to wear on the BBC, and loads of innuendo abt black players...

...but yes, i'd say this was worse than ron, at least he KNEW he'd done something wrong, not that that excuses saying it, of course...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Friday, 14 May 2004 08:19 (nineteen years ago) link

the thing is that both of them are not exhibiting an actual hatred of black people, they're just saying stupid things about/towards them

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 14 May 2004 08:31 (nineteen years ago) link

The irony of it all is that Jimmy Hill is black.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Friday, 14 May 2004 08:33 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.sportsattic.com/nflphoto/photos4/Hill,Jimmy1.jpg

Tis true, tis true

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 14 May 2004 08:38 (nineteen years ago) link

is that Ryan Giggs's dad?

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 14 May 2004 08:39 (nineteen years ago) link

five months pass...

He was interviewed on The Frank Skinner show this evening. An mp3 of his infamous commentary was mentioned - Google delivered the goods.

Pretty bleak viewing at points I thought. Can he relaunch his career?

― bert (bert), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:39 (nineteen years ago) link

Let's hope not.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 12 November 2004 07:59 (nineteen years ago) link

Do you think anyone misses him? I don't.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Friday, 12 November 2004 10:08 (nineteen years ago) link

a little

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Friday, 12 November 2004 10:10 (nineteen years ago) link

two months pass...

Oh dear

― Dave B (daveb), Sunday, 23 January 2005 11:02 (nineteen years ago) link

this is genius!!!!
But Mr Atkinson defended himself today. He said: "I cannot believe anyone has complained about anything I said. I went there to help them out and to raise money. I stayed for ages and did photographs.

!!!!hahaha

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 23 January 2005 11:28 (nineteen years ago) link

It's the second blunder made by Mr Atkinson, who made off-air racist comments last April which were accidently broadcast on a Middle East sports channel following a match between Chelsea and Monaco.

they keep mentioning the 'broadcast on Middle East TV' thing every bloody time. this is almost racism itself in the way that it implies people in the Middle East would actually be PERSONALLY offended by what Ron said ffs.

― Stevem On X (blueski), Sunday, 23 January 2005 13:17 (nineteen years ago) link

i had imagined that it was just trying to describe how the off-air comments ended up getting broadcasted. but there may well be the implication as you'd described i guess.

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 23 January 2005 13:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Is Ron having his life scripted by Linehan and Matthews?

― Masked Gazza, Sunday, 23 January 2005 14:15 (nineteen years ago) link

The Chinese - a great bunch of lads.

― Ally C (Ally C), Sunday, 23 January 2005 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link

shame about the lassies though

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 23 January 2005 16:55 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.stuii.co.uk/images/sitesupport/roger-mellie.gif

"Bloocks"

― David Merryweather (DavidM), Sunday, 23 January 2005 18:44 (nineteen years ago) link

two months pass...

If it wasn't fot those pesky kids, he'd have gotten away with it...

Also, 'Sunday Sport columnist'. Sheesh.

― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 4 April 2005 06:37 (nineteen years ago) link

My conscience is not in my heart.

I did not know about this. Well done, Dwight Yorke and Co.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Monday, 4 April 2005 10:01 (nineteen years ago) link

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