Why was Agatha Christie's "Ten Little Niggers" renamed "Ten Little Indians", and yet Joseph Conrad's "The Nigger of Narcissus" remains unchaged?

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Seems strange to me.

― jonathan livingston pigeon, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

sexism.

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

[I was going to lock this thread as a troll but some quick research shows it isn't; wow would my reading habits have been different if I'd known about this when I was 10.]

― MODERATOR (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh, I had the initial reaction as you but then yes, I did remember this being the case.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

It's political crunkess. Gone mad.

― de, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm seriously considering building a time machine so that I can go back and slap Agatha Christie for being racist.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The classic book "The Student as Nigger" is also unchanged, but given the radical nature of the point the book makes, in that case perhaps it makes some sense.

Perhaps literature needs to be understood as a product of the society that created it--why whitewash over the taken for granted racism that existed? Let the names stand and give fodder for discussion about racism and society.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously, where would you stop though?

xpost

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Cos racism wasn't taken for granted by everyone -- black or white -- when Christie chose that as a title.

xpost

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I gather the rhyme originated in the UK, but the n-word was added when it got to the States. Charming.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Evidently it was taken for granted enough that the title was even proposed, no?

xpost

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the thread title should be "X-Post-o-rama."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

how is the use of Indians, in the context of the rhyme, any less racist? It has less stigma, sure, but that's different.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Being old enough to remember the civil rights movement, racism and the n word were very very common up through the 1970s. When I was a kid, you could still eat at Sambo's.
So yeah, that Christie could conceive of the title and propose it to a publisher says a lot about public consciousness at the time.

mega xpost

public consciousness about Indians wasn't even developed until very recently (changing of sports team names etc)

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe if it was "Ten Little Injuns"

― phil-two (phil-two), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

well Indian was reclaimed by AIM (and most Americans don't give a shit about Indians anyway) - but obviously the use of nigger has remained contentious (at least for some).

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

(the title's also been changed to " …and then there were none")

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

why whitewash over the taken for granted racism that existed?

This is exactly why I hate _Heart Of Darkness_.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I just thought it strange that this thread was posited as being somehow a "cleanup" of the title, when they're both pretty bad.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you mean the literary association with dark=evil, or am I missing something?
xpost

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Agatha Christe = crappy writer (ever tried to read her? yeugh). Provocative title unecessary for her work.

Conrad = V. bloody good writer. Also treats colonial themes very seriously. Not complete racist as some claim (sorry d.perry, i disagree). Also died 1924, so he and his work is still rooted in the colonial era. Provocative title acceptable.

Gentlemen, start firing........NOW.

― de, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

"Evidently it was taken for granted enough that the title was even proposed, no?"

I don't know what Christie's novel was titled in the US, but in the UK, it was known as "Ten Little Niggers" until the early 1980s, when it was changed. But i think it's interesting that they felt they had to change that novel, but not Conrad's. Why? Because people who read Conrad are supposed to be more "sophisticated" or something?

― jonathan livingston pigeon, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

As Mark S. said, the book is now called 'And then there were none'.

I read it last week. The rhyme in the version I read talks about '10 little soldiers', and the setting is Soldier Island, rather than Nigger Island.

Great book, by the way.

― Joe Kay (feethurt), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Vagaries of publishing houses?

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Because people who read Conrad are supposed to be more "sophisticated" or something?

that's assuming a lot.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

in the conrad, James Wait (the nigger in question) is key to the way the characters behave and the general plot, whereas in the Christie, the niggers in question are not actually characers, it's just from a rhyme to symbolise the slow bumping off of characters.

i guess the christie estate thought it relatively unproblematic changing the title as there are probably many variations in the rhyme even at the time, and it would be less offensive for the newer audience it needed to reach in later time. still racist, but a much less problematic word. (I imagine most ppl here only knew the "indians" variation as a kid and found out about the change in the Christie book much later on if at all) XPOST, what Mark said about the film

I can't see an audience disposed to read Conrad being put off by the older name, and as it's more ingrained in the story it would be harder to move/translate.

Coincidence or something more s*n*ster - NoN is the only Conrad boook not digitised on Project Gutenberg.

ALSO, do your own research ;-)

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

You know if publishers start backing up and re-writing novels to remove racist content, will we have a "There Was No Racism" movement like we now have the "Holocaust Never Happened" people?

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

presumably the answer to the question is that it has been assumed that AC chose her title not to annoy or offend, but to be something bright and catchy and memorable and jokey - ie a line from a basically meaningless nursery rhyme - so there is no crime on "deep artistic grounds" if it is switched to something non-offensive but otherwise analogous, whereas conrad picked his title for other kinds of reasons than mere cheerful saleability, so bad to change it, and besides what's inside the book will surely deal with topics raised along with offence yada yada*

*(i've never read either so i've no idea if an argument based on content wd be a defensible argument...)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that's one of the reason why Native Americans still like to use the term Indian. To rub it in the face, reminding just how ignorant the conquering Euros were/are.

xpost

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

My issue with _HoD_ is the general disdain that the novel puts towards the African characters. They are unapologetically subhuman throughout the book from every character's perspective. I do not like reading books that champion the perspective of "Look, white people, if we aren't careful we could become animals like them!".

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan, even if the book is knowingly from the PoV of a racist?

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:39 (twenty-two years ago)

"look! white people! if we aren't careful we could become animals, like them!"

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

well Dan has problems with V. too for the same reasons, and I wouldn't call Pynchon a racist. It's a valid point of view, even if I don't agree with it.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Pynchon wrote V? Like the V: The Final Battle?

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

no, dumbass.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Well the books reflect the time they were written in, and I think they are invaluable historical indicators of how things were and to some degree are. We might not like reading them, but I think it is important that they remain unchanged; and subject to criticisms suchs as Dan's.

Yes he wrote V.

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The publishers didn't remove all the racist content though, there's a 'typical Jew' drug dealer still in there.
Also one of the characters was responsible for the deaths of 20 Africans. Another character (one of the more sympathetic in the book) argues that they 'were only blacks'. It's unclear whether Christie goes along with this or not.

― Joe Kay (feethurt), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

right i don't think you can say he's exactly "championing" that perspective. i thought what 'de' wrote up there was perfect (is that what xpost means? still wondering)

― duke newbie, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Alan: Yes. The issue is that I think racism is wrong largely because of the direct impact it can have on my life and reading a story where I'm supposed to sympathize/identify with a character who thinks people like me are subhuman and (more importantly) NEVER LEARNS THAT THIS IS INCORRECT pisses me off to no end.

(To give an example from another angle, _Native Son_ was a fantastic book but i have absolutely zero desire to ever read it again.)

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

so this is a problem for you even when written by a non-white author, Dan?

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I should probably use "issue" instead of "problem," I don't think there's anything wrong with you obv.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

who says you have to "sympathize/identify" with Marlow?

― phil-two (phil-two), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

If you are going to be pissed off by every novel where the character is racist/sexist or whatever and never learns the error of his/her ways, then you are ruling out an awful lot of pre-20th century literature. What about ancient Greek or Roman literature, where the institution of slavery is never questioned?

― jonathan livingston pigeon, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm...Marlow's not the actual narrator, is he? There's a framing device I seem to recall.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, this is my problem with books. i forget character names. like when i was writing the essay for AP Literature, I thought the dude's name was George. i got a really bad score.

― phil-two (phil-two), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"The reason people are more pissed off about fur than leather is because it's easier to pick on rich ladies than motorcycle gangs." Bumper Sticker in my neighborhood. Seems somehow germane.

I do not like reading books that champion the perspective of "Look, white people, if we aren't careful we could become animals like them!".
That perspective, a version of the age old tendancy to damn the other as not only different but inferior, is a valuable one to study, surely. Homo sum; nihil humani a me alienum puto, etc... The threat of the end of civilization, the loss of identity, the incessant warfare between peoples is common to all civilizations even if it tends to be paranoid and fascistic.

― Michael White (Hereward), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"Tell me about the heart of darkness again, George."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anyone read The Nigger of Narcissus?

― de, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

In this Bitch, I mean. ;-)

― de, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm unconvinced by mark s's argument that it's acceptable to change Christie's title because it basically has nothing to do with the plot. Even if it did have something to do with the plot, the title would have been changed because Christie is popular literature and Conrad isn't. That's the key distinction I think, and the underlying assumptions of that distinction are interesting.

And no, I haven't read The Nigger Of The Narcissus

― jonathan livingston pigeon, Monday, 26 April 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

oh wait, i meant i was writing about The Great Gatsby, and i thought his name was George instead of Jay.

― phil-two (phil-two), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I've read lots of Conrad books (in the distant past, I must admit) but not that one. I always felt embarrased about the title, which is pretty stank!! "The Secret Agent" is the best one. (x-post)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The title was changed first to And Then There Were None for the US market during Christie's lifetime. (Ten Little Indians was actually the third title change). Mark S's argument is correct.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I like nostromo.

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

(i'm unconvinced by the suggestion that my post can fairly be read as stating MY argument, as opposed to outlining some notional publisher's rationalisation)

(hey pashmina can you email me w.an email i can reach you on?)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

normanfay(at)btconnect.com, mark.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

nostromo is easily the best title

"romance - a novel" is probably the worst

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

(the faycycle/demon one has been pretty much spammed out of existence b/c of skanks using it as a spoof return address for junkmail)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

there are two possibilities: we can re-rename it "Ten Little Niggaz" or transfer all Christie-directed slaps to Elvis Costello (which sounds more cathartic)

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

in that case, bell hooks to thread!

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

orbit OTM!

― Donna Brown (Donna Brown), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

From what I have read, non-white authors handle it differently from white authors. _Native Son_ was a gigantic condemnation of the circumstances that lead to the death of Bigger Thomas and was meant to generate frustration and rage at said circumstances and I appreciate the novel for that, but I do not read to be frustrated and enraged.

(xpost phil, who the hell are you supposed to identify with then? Isn't that one of the main roles of a protagonist?)

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

(message replied to mark)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post sorry mark -- i didn't mean "argument" to be taken so literal. replace 'argument" with suggestion or whatever. geez.

so let me get this straight -- costello can't make a mistake and apologize for it many times and never do it again? he can never be forgiven? change is impossible?

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(ok i emailed you)

HoD I think is a classic example of a novel being dated by events since publication - it came out in 1902, while the Belgian genocide in the Congo was still in process, and was sorta kinda an angry advance warning abt same (which Conrad knew abt and was appalled - stronger word needed really - by)

Dan is right, that the trope used - intended to shock and upset and get stuff going - was "You know this civilising mission, where we go in and make things nice for them, well we're as bad as them": well actually hey "we" turned out to be capable of a lot worse than "them" (where "them" is indeed an evil cartoon rather than a reality), but this fact was really pretty indigestible among the respectable European (and American) reading public till after WW1, when it was kind of hard to ignore. I think if you read HoD now, in light of the actual unfolding events, it full of unaddressed problems (and therefore by no means the 'timeless' work it's sometimes held up as. I also think it's unfair retroactively to pillory Conrad for these problems: he was an angry, difficult man fighting to get people to think about (and do stuff about?) what was going on, when (pretty much) everyone else was doing nothing. He wasn't able to look 100 years ahead and think, and how will this all read when the world is quite changed? But I don't think that makes some of his thinking any less ugly or unattractive,

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post jack - it wz directed at JLP AND came out more snarky than i intended)

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with Mark, which is why I've been framing this as MY problems with _HoD_.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

"Nigger of the Narcissus" actually does have an alternative title: Children of the Sea, from an 1897 edition.

LC MARC record references this. I don't feel like looking around for an actual record of that edition, but it's out there.

The nigger of the Narcissus; a tale of the forecastle, by Joseph Conrad.

― Dickerson Pike (Dickerson Pike), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

[completely irrelevant sidebar:
"forecastle" is often written as "fo'c's'le" (to reflect UK sailor pronunciation: viz "foaxull") — is it the only English word with this many apostrophes so close together?]

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 April 2004 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I believe "fo'c'sle" is the only English word with two apostrophes in it at all, but I might be misremembering.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 26 April 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Are you not counting things like shouldn't've?

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 26 April 2004 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Is "shouldn't've" in the dictionary?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Monday, 26 April 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, probably not, but it's in the Buzzcocks, which is just as important.

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 26 April 2004 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

we used to enjoy fo'c'sles in the summer - the grape ones were my favorites

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

When I was a kid we always used to go see the fo'c'sles at the Natural History Museum.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The new models are overrated.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 00:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Clara Peller 4evah!

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

You obscure MST3K skit reference freak. Oh wait.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

as i only came across this while lookin for lighthearted agatha christie threads i am gonna avoid most of the issues for the moment except to say

i agree with dan and mark s.

― H (Heruy), Monday, 31 May 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

http://gawker.com/5002585/political-correctness-at-american-newspapers

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Sunday, 27 January 2008 17:54 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_popular/story.html?id=261254

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Sunday, 27 January 2008 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

waht

― Curt1s Stephens, Sunday, 27 January 2008 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

u dumb canadian

― remy bean, Sunday, 27 January 2008 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

When I was 10, I didn't know what the N-word meant and just generally regarded it as a term of endearment for an annoying person, maybe derived from "niggledy". I found out the difference on the day I handed in a school report exclaiming that "My cat kept me awake last night. She really is a nigger"

And it was a black cat too.

― JTS, Sunday, 27 January 2008 23:13 (eighteen years ago)

ahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahahhaaha.

man childhood innocence. reminds me of the first time I said "fuck" not knowing it was a bad word.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Sunday, 27 January 2008 23:15 (eighteen years ago)

Strictly 4 My I.N.D.I.A.N.S.

― Eazy, Sunday, 27 January 2008 23:30 (eighteen years ago)

six months pass...

EFIL4SNAIDNI

― The Reverend, Saturday, 2 August 2008 07:49 (seventeen years ago)

oh shit I didn't realize that was a bump

― The Reverend, Saturday, 2 August 2008 07:49 (seventeen years ago)

ugh

― The Reverend, Saturday, 2 August 2008 07:49 (seventeen years ago)

...

― J0rdan S., Saturday, 2 August 2008 07:51 (seventeen years ago)

sexism.
-- RJG (RJG), Monday, April 26, 2004 10:16 AM (4 years ago) Bookmark Link

is this you?

― J0rdan S., Saturday, 2 August 2008 07:52 (seventeen years ago)

no. that's the scottish (I think) RJG

― The Reverend, Saturday, 2 August 2008 07:56 (seventeen years ago)

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