Diction

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This could go under Annoying Coworkers or it could go under Annoying Grammar - but it's both, and it's neither, and it bugs me so much, it gets its own thread..

Annoying coworker: "I'll tell you what it reminds me of. What it reminds me of is, it reminds me of lirally(sic) Peter Gabriel's drummer's left shoe (whatever) ..... "

*lirally = literally.

What bothers me more is that he's a really genuine person, who's just boring as hell and I want to smack him every thime he opens his mouth.

/ vent

This is where you start ranting about people who use the wrong words (ie "runs the gambit"), or put too many qualifiers around what they're saying instead of just saying it, or belabor a point, ....

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I like these people.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

My friend's girlfriend - "I wouldn't trust you with a bargepole"

My friend - "it's touch you with a bargepole"

My friend's girlfriend - "But I wouldn't...I simply wouldn't trust you with a bargepole"

― winterland, Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Wonder / wander misuse pisses me off.

― don (don), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

A friend of mine always says rurry/rurried instead of worry/worried. He hasn't got a speech impediment, it's juat these words.
And a teacher used always pronounce 'specific' as 'pacific'

― Joe Kay (feethurt), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

people need to chillax

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Thursday, 13 May 2004 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

How about the people who say 'of' instead of 'have' for past tense? "I should of told you before, but I'm an idiot"

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

if you just say it, it's okay, because it's pretty close to "should've" which isn't whatever, but it still is.

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Thursday, 13 May 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I just love people who think they're smart but who don't read for pleasure, but by "love" I mean "here comes the laughing and the pointing." One of my wife's students used "visa vee" and "for all intensive purposes" in one assignment.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

"for all intensive purposes"

that's slang for boot-knockin'

― The Huckle-Buck (Horace Mann), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

*lirally = literally.

has anyone noticed how much difficulty under-forties in america seem to have pronouncing "definitely" without completely swallowing the middle part? i'm seeing this all over the place; it's like "dehfly" and it's always said in this really dopey guido/surfer-moron voice (bobby flay and contestants of blind date, i'm lookin' straight at you).

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I find Americans generally have difficulty with Ts in pronunciation. Water=wadder. Literally becomes lidderally and then the t/d sound gets elided to the point of non-existence.

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, I did hear a co-worker pronounce Aerosmith as "air-ee-o-smith" last week when they were playing in town.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 May 2004 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I occasionally find English people to be condescending twats.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Why does different pronunciation mean condescending?

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you really think Americans are trying to make the "t" sound in the middle of "water" but somehow.. can't??

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I think by "difficulty" he meant "laziness toward"

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe it's just that people would feel stupid saying "waTer" knowing that no one else does and they'd be roundly mocked for their pretentiousness.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway I know you must not actually think that. I've got to go meet my parents. In Trafalgar Square!! muahaha the irony. At dinner I'll make a point of asking for "wonh-Tah" and see how they react. KISSES

x-post: you know sometimes i wonder why british people don't make an effort to pronounce the "r"s anywhere but the beginnings of words. i mean it's not that hard people, come on!

x-x-post: bingo!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Speaking of lazy,

How do you pronounce Worchestershire?

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Ketch-up.

― NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, that wasn't even a joke, was it?

"Wooshteshur"

― NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

and also, even though I'm in London i don't do it because it just doesn't make sense. i've actually done it a couple of times in really loud bars when i can tell they're not going to understand me, but it's just not right generally. it would be like hearing an English person say "dude!!"

x-post: i might pronounce it much like the very similar place name "worcestershire" but the aitch throws me a little

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

"for all intensive purposes"

This one is unforgivable, but it's not a diction thing at all is it?

Fully pronouncing the "T" in "water" just takes too much effort, man. There are better places to spend energy on the letter "T," like when we say "condescending twats."

― martin m. (mushrush), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

My favorites are my agency's clients who can't properly pronounce the word in the name of their business that tells people what they do.

"Yeah, this is Bob here with Bob's MAY-suhn-AIR-ree."
"Hi, this is Dave with Dave's Trucking and TRANS-tay-shun."
et fucking c.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I say wadder too. I'm a red-blooded Merkin. I was just pointing out what I think is a trend in spoken American English, which tends to permit the elision of interanl Ts followed by a vowel sound.

Wusstuhshur.

I hang out at a pub in SF where there are lots of English guys and they have taken on Californicisms like 'Dude' which always makes me laugh. We have even taught them to roll 'spliffs' without tobacco.

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Drives me nuts when Martha Stewart pronounces the word "water" so carefully, as though it's in some strange language and she's working it out phonetically. "Just go to jail already, bitch!"

Uh, did I just admit to watching Martha Stewart?

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 13 May 2004 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Water=wadder

as opposed to wawter? waughter?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 13 May 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the accepted Standard American English pronunciation?

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 13 May 2004 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

WAHD-tder.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 13 May 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the accepted Standard American English pronunciation?

Di-et-Coke

― martin m. (mushrush), Thursday, 13 May 2004 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

So is this like accents v stupidity then? I "mispronounce" words like water all the time - the t disappears altogether with me - but that's just an Inverness accent. I bloody well know how to pronounce it in RP, but I don't actually speak like that.

In fact, I probably pronounce "literally" in a way that would cause dave225 to want to punch me. But it's a word that drives me to distraction through obsessive misuse by my mum and a succession of colleagues.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

In Pennsylvania, a lot of folks pronounce it "wooder." In fact you can hear Rodney Anonymous do it on "Ringo Buys a Rifle" if you're into the Dead Milkmen at all.

― martin m. (mushrush), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

the entire city of pittsburgh to thread! once they get their wurshing dune.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Using it (literally) incorrectly is worse than mispronouncing it.

xpost

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

the entire city of pittsburgh to thread! once they get their wurshing dune.

yinz got enough wooder fur the wursh?

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha. people talk funny!!

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

How about the people who say 'of' instead of 'have' for past tense? "I should of told you before, but I'm an idiot"

How about people on this board who are so conscious of this, they actually say "sort've" instead of "sort of" (even though "sort have" MAKES NO SENSE)? I'm not naming names. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno. It sorta makes sense. I mean kinda.

― martin m. (mushrush), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

"Sorta" and "kinda" are fully acceptable.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, I've said "sorta" on ILE 11 times, and "kinda" 23 times, but "sort've" and "kind've" each ZERO.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, searching ILE for "sort've" is fascinating, because there are a lot of hits but 90% are by the same three posters.

Okay, I will drop this now.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

this is all very thinly disguised snobbery/elitism.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

or, said different,

what this is is, it's all thilly diskized big talk, is what it is.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

ailsa,

Most dialects, and I include RP ("I beg your pardon: correct English is the slang of prigs." - George Eliot) and SAE, have some kind of consensus on what is proper pronunciation and what is not. I'm not down on regional or any kind of natural accents. Many accents in the North of Britain have neither the dentals T or D but a glottal stop instead as their normal pronunciation. Some one remarked to me that if you look at the common Old French heritage of modern French and Modern English, the biggest difference in the pronunciation of common terms is that the French have thrown a considerable amount of consonants overboard (though not as many as the Spanish) but have vowels which are well differentiated whereas English has kept most of the consonants from when the word entered our language but have turned many vowels into schawas and it's ilk. The glottal T and the softening of T in America do not quite fit into that logic and it makes me curious.

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a pretty distinct T in the mix when I say 'water'. Blame British neighbours and a steady diet of '40s/'50s films with actresses who spoke very quickly and with amazing diction. Also no desire to get stuck with the worst excesses of the Minnesota accent, and an elocution-minded grandmother who had a can of whup-ass ready for infractions. It's probably become more distinct over time living in London as well, though I think it's more because I've fallen into British usage, which is completely different to American (as just demonstrated).

My mother and sister both tell me I 'nunciate too much'. My position is that they don't do it enough. They sound awful.

Also worth remembering: for every American 'wadder' there's an equal and opposite British 'innit'. I've always been fascinated by diction and accents anyway, just in trying to figure out where certain manners of speaking have come from.

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 13 May 2004 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I think what may be happening is less of a trend specific to English, but something more general: with vowels on both sides, it's not all that surprising that the unvoiced T would turn into a voiced D. I'd say it's more of an anomaly that this hasn't happened in British English.

(xpost to Michael)

― the krza (krza), Thursday, 13 May 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

why do they sound 'awful'?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 13 May 2004 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Because their voices are whiny, in the main, Oops - the same reason anyone would sound awful (whiny posh English girls to thread). But the lack of enunciation added to this whine makes them sound like tired, crabby children.

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 13 May 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Having lived abroad, I can understand how dominant ambiant speech patterns become normative. When I lived in France, there were days when certain English words which I had been saying since I learned to speak looked new and odd. If one is living amongst foreign (to one) English speakers for any length of time some of their speaking habits will rub off. Whether it sounds normal or natural is usually a function of how natural it is for the speaker to echo the common speech of his environment. I also have little idiosyncratic affectations that I have cultivated over the years if no other reason than to resist the tyranny of dominant culture, i.e., I pronounce the T in 'often' strongly just because I did one day and my mother chided me for it. In a senseless act of adolescent rebellion I swore to myself that I would die saying 'ofTen'.

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

for about a week i went around saying "com - fort - a - ble." someone laughed at me for it and i stopped immediately.

― stockholm cindy (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 13 May 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I love thinking that every word was once uttered for the first time.

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 13 May 2004 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm quietly enjoying the fact no one's called out Australians here, and we perhaps have the laziest, slurriest diction of the lot. Maybe.

Houygarnmate, wannagdawnderthepub?

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 13 May 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah fuck it, what do you sound like?

― teeny (teeny), Thursday, 13 May 2004 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

- vunnerable
- haitch
- chomping at the bit
- brought [instead of bought]
- mischeeevious
- medcine
- unnershtand
- saying 'arse' but spelling it 'ass'

The word 'from' is used far too often too.

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 14 May 2004 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

In a training session the other day the trainy lady said 'pacific(ally)' instead of 'specific(ally)' about 100 times (I'm really not exaggerating - it was a long session and it was about detailed statistical reports) and I thought I was going to snap and stab her in the neck with my pen. However, vocal wackiness of this type doesn't piss me off nearly as much as in print.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Friday, 14 May 2004 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry Michael usually I'm all in favor of putting transatlantic differences down to actual inferiority. I don't know what got into me. I think "wadder" actually flows a lot bedder (hur hur); a hard English T in the middle feels like an interruption to me. Some real backwoods Appalachians will say "posties" instead of "posts," and "waspies" instead of wasps, for similar reasons.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

The plural of breakfast is brekfasses

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 14 May 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes.

Also "forehead" is pronounced "faruhd"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Here in MS (I don't know how widespread it is in the south) the tendency is to treat the word "license" as a plural, I guess because it ends with an S sound. "Can I see your driver's license, ma'am?" "Yeah, I got 'em right here..." The less formal education someone around here has, the more likely they are to say it, not surprisingly. What "license" is the plural OF I have no idea, but "license" takes a plural pronoun, and is said with more confidence/emphasis when referring to two or more licenses.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Friday, 14 May 2004 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

What about scissors? Some people say Can I borrow a scissors? They say that since it's only one thing, it's singular... But it's one *pair* of things .. so "a pair of scissors" is singular.. "scissors" is plural. .. and "skizziks" backwards is "natures".

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 14 May 2004 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Since when is diction synonymous with pronunciation? The premise of this thread is flawed.

― Mary (Mary), Friday, 14 May 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

She stood on the balcony, inexplicably mimicking his hiccupping, and amicably welcoming him in.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The premise of this thread is flawed.

Not just the premise, not just the premises, but the lodgers as well. "Sorry ociffer, I din't bring my licen."

"Din't" There's a mispronunciation that sets me off.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Tracer, is that from "The Transitive Vampire"?

I don't know if that question mark should be in side the quote. My hunch is yes. But I will leave it.

― sgs (sgs), Friday, 14 May 2004 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

"Put a dash, question mark, or exclamation point within closing quotation marks when the punctuation applies to the quotation itself and outside when it applies to the whole sentence."

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you.

― sgs (sgs), Friday, 14 May 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know, sgs. It's something that actor-types say to warm up, in between bouts of "me may mah moe moo" and other mentalism.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Diction:
"1. Choice and use of words in speech or writing.
2. Degree of clarity and distinctness of pronunciation in speech or singing; enunciation. "

.. if you choose to trust the dictionary.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 14 May 2004 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

They've clearly reversed the accepted heirarchy of definition; dictionary in being-wrong-again utter non-shocker

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Another pet peeve - muisuse of "penultimate".

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

the tendency is to treat the word "license" as a plural, I guess because it ends with an S sound. "Can I see your driver's license, ma'am?" "Yeah, I got 'em right here..."

what in the hell are you talking about?

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Friday, 14 May 2004 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Houygarnmate, wannagdawnderthepub?

That's not just in Oz. American - Digeet? Wanna samwich?

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

What in the hell do you mean, what in the hell am I talking about?

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Would you all keep it down! I'm trying to eat here.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

You claim people use license as a plural yet your example doesn't illustrate that. Was it just a typo? I never hear this myself, "driver licenses" ??

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude I have at least three or four

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

His example does illustrate it. "Yeah, I got 'em right here..." as opposed to I've got it right here.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Uh...okay, a different example.
"When did you get your driver's license?"
"They came in the mail about two weeks after I took the test."

"License" is a singular noun and its plural is "licenses," last time I looked.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Rock, do you have more than one driver's license?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

What is this now, some kinda license based pissing contest?

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do we call a learner's permit "temps" ? Which is treated as plural.. Maybe that's where it comes from, yet it's just shifting the mystery up one level...

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Nope. One driver's license, one bartender's license (expired), one marriage license, one poetic license. But those add up to licenses, plural.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

You licentious Rock, you.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The poetic license is expired too, I think.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The way the original post was worded it made me think you were saying people used the word "license" plurally when it shouldn't be.

The use you describe is not so far widespread as to make it to Texas.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Friday, 14 May 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I've recently stopped saying "th" and just say "f,"
like booth = boof, tooth = toof, with = wif

I started doing it for some reason and it caught on.

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 14 May 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

In fact I really slur a lot of my words pretty regularly

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 14 May 2004 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i've just started speaking in grunts.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Friday, 14 May 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.bakera.fsnet.co.uk/bush_chimp.jpg

NOOK-YOU-LAR

One of my other pet peeves is when people are trying to say 'i second that motion' and they always say 'i second that emotion' ala smokey robinson.

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 14 May 2004 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I always grunt: "i don't know," "yes" and "no"

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 14 May 2004 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Grunt too much effort. Just slobber and wheeze. Commmunication useless anyway.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 14 May 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

jimmy carter also pronounced "nuclear" as NEW-CYOO-LAR, if memory serves me right.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 15 May 2004 04:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Licence noun, license verb.

Loads of Cantonese speakers say 'herb and spy', instead of 'herbs and spices.'

On that topic, why do Americans knock the H off 'herb'?

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Saturday, 15 May 2004 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

'Cause that's how our mommies and daddies raised us.

― Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Saturday, 15 May 2004 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...

I worked with a guy once who used to say "gaw-dacity" because he didn't know that "gall" and "audacity" were two words.

he really just needed to chillax.

― Catty (Catty), Sunday, 5 September 2004 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I met someone the other day who says "supposably". I think there was a thing in Friends about that too.

― beanz (beanz), Monday, 6 September 2004 08:53 (twenty-one years ago)

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