winning their hearts and minds: Iraqi wedding party fired upon by U.S. helicopter

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U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq (news - web sites), killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.

About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

U.S. troops took the bodies and the wounded in a truck to Rutba hospital, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

They were clearly combatants.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

unlawful combatants carrying out an illegal wedding = BOMBS OVER BOSTON

― QUOTATIONS FROM TAXACHUSETTS (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Marduk did not look favorably upon their union.

― Slayer of Tiamat, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I love how the commander's like "our units haven't reported anything yet" - nice comms goin on there dude.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I smell ham!
Maybe it's in your armpit!
Tasty armpit ham!

― Tiamat (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Shut up.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"our units haven't reported anything yet" = "damn, how do we spin this one?"

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

This skeet-shooting the bouquet madness must stop!

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The water-treading just makes him look even more incompetent though.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Hasnt this happened before in afghanistan? Its pretty heavy handed by the army to open fire on such a large crowd.,. but if you were an iraqi and knew that theres an occupying army in your city would really fire a bunch of guns in the air?

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Um Bill, didn't you read the last paragraph of the original post?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

We arent doing so well. Are we?

The only way this could be worse is if it was actually a mock wedding setup by US forces consisting of all detainees dressed in drag with electrodes on their nards. This happened all while Bush and Cheney are taking a hot oil bath in a pool of Geneva Conventions pamphlets and Colin Powell is snorting a line of Columbia's finest off of Jean Benet Ramsey's corpse.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, give it time.

Just remember that this is excused by all the good we're doing. Yup.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Forgot about ole Rummy.

He'll be having sex with one of Mexico's finest fighting roosters. Naked.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Grabbing that cock hard, then?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

the image you just put in my head is unforgivable

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

He likes it rough.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

but if you were an iraqi and knew that theres an occupying army in your city would really fire a bunch of guns in the air?

at least wait for the goddamn planes/helicopters/ARMY to pass, then celebrate

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Ahem, please note:

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I dont know though, Ned. I mean...we arent that bad, are we? Im just saying that we dont need another media melee' on our hands...we wouldnt have done this just for the fuck of it. There had to be at least some bogus intelligence somewhere. I garauntee that it wasnt done because we had gas and ammo to waste. There was a reason...though it probably wasnt good, or justified. But you never know.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, doubtless it's not the whole story, but I was more responding back to Cutty's remark -- if the surface holds true, that sequence of events means that the helicopters etc. came after the guns started being fired and the military had already looked into it, however briefly.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I know what happened:

The 2 soldiers showed up to check the steez. The wedding party responded with "your mama's so fat" jokes. Massacre ensued. Valid.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.neschedda.com/pranks/dennis/duck_hunt.gif

― 24 hours with the King of Snake. (SNAKE!) (ex machina), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I just get pissed off because obviously not enough care is being taken with situations such as this over there. It's one thing if a soldier gets spooked and kills someone at a checkpoint when he shouldn't have, it's another if you send in some helicopters to do this sort of thing without double checking first (assuming this is all true as reported above)

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Really though, that makes about as much sense to me as the "those fuckers just shot the place up because they are Americans" explanation.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Everyday is a new version of Rashomon.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

everyday is a new episode of george said / allah said

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

This war begs for a hip hop track like "I Got A Man" featuring George and Saddam.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

http://imdb.com/title/tt0036497/

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The human race is fucking scary.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jg27paw4/yr13/yr13_47b.gif

PHOTOSHOP TIME

― 24 hours with the King of Snake. (SNAKE!) (ex machina), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

quick, before the bodies get cold!

― bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I got startled by thunder last night. I'm sure the edgy occupation forces react (before thinking)to anything that seems threatening. The tradition of firing gunshots in the air at celebrations is pretty well documented. knowledge of Muslim culture is not a requirement for joining the military.Aye, there's the rub. I think a major problem of the invasion and occupation has to do with a complete ignorance of Islam, Muslim culture, and the history of the Arab world. Besides which, the US military - the soldiers - are basically young kids who chose service as a way to get $ for an education. Also the National Guard is now a major demographic in the 150,000 soldiers in Iraq. "Weekend Warriors". I am about to rant too much - this rant shall suffice.

― aimurchie, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

The tradition of firing gunshots in the air at celebrations is pretty well documented.

You don't need to know jackshit about Islam to know about this practice. Try living in Chicago during either of the two Bulls three-peats.

― QUOTATIONS FROM CHAIRMAN REINSDORF (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

And when the Terps had a good season, holy shit is was scurry.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

is it also muslim tradition to get married at 2:45 in the AM?

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

this country has little to know idea of how we're perceived in that part of the country and even less of an idea on how we should handle things over there. a large dose of humility is needed, because right now we just seem like a conquering army who is laying waste to the land over there and abusing the people we're supposed to be helping. It's the hubris and arrogance of our culture.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"is it also muslim tradition to get married at 2:45 in the AM?"

No, it's a particularly dumb American tradition to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a wedding party that only lasts about three hours. Everywhere else in the world, wedding parties are much longer. Mine broke up at 4 in the morning, and no authorites were called or shots fired.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I say we conquer shit Roman style. Then maybe people wont question our authority...because we have swords.

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Man, the U.S. is just getting better and better at foreign relations, aren't we?

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, and Don Rumsfeld fucks chickens...you hear about that shit?

― Spinktor, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Wouldn't it be better to admit imperialist intentions instead of cadging the question in freedom and democracy bullshit? Honesty seems to be lacking in this conflagration.

― aimurchie, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes it would. It would not however play well with the home audience.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Are you sure about that, Ned?

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

In the sense that the rhetorical collective 'we Americans' don't want to be *seen* as imperialists, yes. That said, I've seen a few rumblings on the right -- George Will springs to mind -- that apparently some just want to call it as they see it: resource securing, etc. They are, however, not the ones in the White House.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

i would love it if that happened.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

well, they don't seem to be doing much better a job of "resource securing" than they are at the "democracy" game!

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

("freedom" 'scuze me)

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

their "resource securing" seems to be going well if you ask me.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

not really, no.

― KABLOOM THERE GOES ANOTHER PIPELINE (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, George Will has been having Thuycidides flashbacks and has been talking up the Iraq adventure as a good old-fashioned imperial war, apparently in the belief that someone must explain realpolitik to the demos or heaven knows what foolishness they might embrace next, when it becomes all too clear that the Iraqis are fresh out of rose petals to fling before our apple-cheeked warriors and want to eject us. Without a bit of stiffening from behind, old George fears we chowderheads might actually remove our troops and bring them home, leaving all that lovely crude oil behind.

xpost

― Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

they're in there and the oil be flowing, right¿

xpost

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i would love it if that happened.

It wouldn't. I don't think it could ever. There's a passage from Doris Lessing's first book in the Canopus in Argos series -- I forget the name, but it's about alien observations of us, our paltry planet, etc. -- where, in a admittedly simplistic vision, many leaders of the world are given the chance/forced to tell 'the truth' about everything, what's going on with human society (nothing to do with the alien observers themselves, this isn't an X-Files scenario) and why what's happened has happened, only for them to be labelled as insane, shut away, killed etc. It's been a long time since I read it so I'm sure I've got the retelling slightly wrong, and again it's very simplistic and not some sort of grand 'oh, OF COURSE' explanation of how power works, but in its own way it explains why there are consensual lies or distortions to make us -- whoever 'us' might be -- feel better about what's going on, to explain it away or rationalize it or ignore it, and why those lies can be told, or accepted, wittingly or unwittingly.

But file that away under my 'why I don't trust power in general' rants if you like. If I had to boil my thoughts on American domestic politics, at the least, down to a pat and not-well-explained soundbite, I think good impulses struggle against a system that prizes inertia, and the negative effects of that system are best ameliorated instead of solved or cured. Now, in many cases bad impulses can struggle just as much and don't go anywhere, and good thing too -- but it means those who can work and control even part of that system need to watched with a careful eye, since they're the ones best able to put destruction into play.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh, nice call from Aimless there.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

No Iraqi oil has been exported to the world markets yet. I'm not even sure that Iraq's current production can handle Iraq demand, I'm pretty sure a lot of oil has been imported post-invasion into Iraq from Kuwait and other sources.

― QUOTATIONS FROM THE CHAIRMAN OF SHELL OIL (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, the name of the Lessing book is Shikasta. Strange reading for a 16 year old, but I'm glad I read them all.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I want a pop
I want a...... SHIKASTA!

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Chug 'em. But watch out for those fizzy drinks in your gullet.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

the only reason i would enjoy seeing a fessing up to imperialism is so i can go up to every canuk i've had a debate with about the (general) effects and role of the u.s. in the world - the ones who still believe that the iraq invasion was for the sole purpose of helping the iraqi people - so that i can go up to them and shove it in their faces.
and perhaps slap them.
my boss 1st.
i really enjoy being right is all. i can be a small, petty man sometimes.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't stop thinking about how different this would be were it the other way around, if it were an American wedding celebration getting fired upon by swooping aircraft.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, then clearly everyone there would be innocent, for a start.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Unless of course they were from West Virginia.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

i was quite sure that oil was being exported by now. but you may be right about that.
either way there's one less belligerent member in opec right now.

xpost

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, even at the current very high level of frustration with the US that the world has reached, I can't help but suspect that, if it were an American wedding, this would be receiving extreme priority coverage, nations of the world would be offering statements of condolence to America, even if only out of fear of being the target of reprisal.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay the last wedding I went to in rural WEST VIRGINIA ended ENDED EARLY because the KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS ran out of BOOZE - but there was MAYO for the sandwiches and we all GOT HIGH DOWN BY THE RIVER afterwards.

― QUOTATIONS FROM THIS WRAPS IT ALL UP (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure that Iraq was in OPEC. I'd guess that the sanctions from GULF WAR 1: A SPACE ODDYSSEY and the UN oil-for-food fiasco precluded Iraq from fully participating.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

You sure it wasn't IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!?!?!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Weird xpost

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

positive. My cousin drives some sort of red sports car. She also lives in a very nice trailer with her husband.

― QUESTIONS FROM NICKALICIOUS (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and the most important part I forgot, which was that the wedding was in a CATHOLIC CHURCH.

― QUESTIONS FROM THE SOCIETY OF JESUS (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

and my cousin's guardian who raised her (and took part in the ceremony) IS A LESBIAN.

― QUESTIONS FROM THE INFALLIBLE PONTIFF (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

what was the big deal with mayo¿

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

search me!

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

well why did i warrant mentioning in the 1st place¿ i have mayo on all my sandwiches (anything that's not peanut butter and jam).

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

dyson! don't say anything! mentioning MAYO is a huge ILX NONONONONO!

― SHHHHH DON'T LET THEM HEAR YOU! (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

can i talk about mayostard¿

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

That was suggested by Nate but you know how popular he is.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

more than me, apparently¡

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

IT"S CALLED MUSMAYOTARDONNAISE PEOPLE!

― what a strange thread to be discussing this in (nickalicious), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

The War On Mayo and Other Things J0hn Darn13113 Dislikes! We must remain vigilant!

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Any wedding - or non wedding - of talentless celebrities is surrounded by helicopters and people shooting...photographs.
I guess I have to ask - do any of you still believe the US is a democracy? I am so disgusted at this point, and I tend to consider the US as a meritocracy - and a big, huge imperialistic force, via culture as well as invasion and occupation. I would like to believe in something about the US. I have travelled (and lived) all over the US, and I can say that people are really nice wherever you go. But being nice is not enough.

― aimurchie, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

btw I was totally wrong upthread (from Slate):

"Amazing Part No. 1 is that this is happening during the first time in history when the United States belongs to the international cartel that controls gas prices. A rarely discussed benefit of invading Iraq was that, since Iraq is a member of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, the United States, which controls Iraq, became a de facto member of OPEC. Since cartels violate U.S. law, Chatterbox figured that the American occupation of Iraq would create legal problems for the Coalition Provisional Authority. (See "Is Bremer a Price Fixer?" and "Has the U.S. Joined OPEC?") But it turned out the United States was too busy violating the Geneva Conventions to give much thought to whatever lesser legal arrangements it might be ignoring. So, until June 30, the date when we turn Iraq over to some sort of sovereign government, we get to belong to OPEC. Why aren't we mau-mauing from within to boost production or, better yet, to dismantle the cartel altogether? Well, there's the fact that President Bush, who is from Texas and formerly worked in the oil bidness, is a bit of an OPEC-o-phile. (Paul Krugman wrote a forehead-slapping column about this three years ago after Bush told a reporter that it was important for the oil market to be "stable and predictable," even if that meant higher prices.) Another complication is that our interests diverge from those of the future sovereign state of Iraq when it comes to the price of oil; Iraq wants it high, while we want it low. Apparently the interests of the future sovereign state of Iraq won out. Clearly, this empire business isn't what it's cracked up to be.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

ex post
i believe the changes that need to be made in the u.s. cannot be achieved by using the electoral tools currently available to the population.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

that was to the democracy question. thanx for the links stence.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

also from same Slate Article:

Amazing Part No. 2 is that this temporary colony of ours sits atop an estimated 115 billion barrels of oil, which, depending on who you ask, constitute the world's second- or third-largest oil reserves. Chatterbox knows, of course, that this war was not fought for oil. Still, securing greater control over world oil markets was certainly an anticipated fringe benefit. The oil ministry, you'll recall, was famously the only Baghdad government office guarded by coalition troops to keep out looting mobs during the early days of the liberation. The Bush administration anticipated a short-term spike in the price of oil, but by now it was thought Iraq's oil would flow so plentifully that the post-Saddam reconstruction might pay for itself. Instead, Iraq is struggling to produce as much oil as it did before the U.S. invasion, when the Treasury Department described its production as "erratic." Although Iraq will surely boost production substantially over the long term, its outdated oil technology, which is subject to frequent sabotage, makes quick recovery impossible.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

NB: Of course I have been to American weddings that lasted long into the night. My point was that cutty's question was absurd.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Second the thanks, stence. Dyson, what should/can we do? We may think the system is failing, but lots of other people don't. Really, truly - what can we do? I just feel overwhelmed - it takes so much paperwork to be poor - and at the same time I am in huge disagreement with my government!

― aimurchie, Wednesday, 19 May 2004 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

The party line:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120373,00.html

when in doubt, blame foreign fighters from syria.

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"two million Iraqi and Syrian dinars" - fuck there goes the dowry

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

My point was that cutty's question was absurd.

colin: twas a joke. fake conspiracy theorizing.

― cutty (mcutt), Wednesday, 19 May 2004 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

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