Bush, his evangelical supporters, and Mideast policy

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Anyone else out there watch last week's "Frontline"? (you can watch the episode online)

It details Bush's "born again" episode and the influence of evangelical Christians in his election and subsequent policy decisions. Bush has already stated that god wanted him to be president, but my question is the opposite. Just how many evangelicals and fundamentalists out there see Bush as god's warrior? Bush is already doing a pretty good job at making the Middle East resemble the book of Revelations.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 24 May 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)

White House Gets Cuddly with Born-Agains.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 24 May 2004 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't get how someone like that can claim to be doing god's work and then smash the world to pieces.

― Pack Yr Romantic Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Monday, 24 May 2004 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

*reads VV article*

Elliott Abrams?! Fucking hell... We are all toast. Some background on the guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_Abrams

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder if he and that Otto Reich guy ever get together in their MacLean houses and, while enjoying some quality scotch and Cubans, reminisce about the "good ol' days" during the Reagan administration, when Latin American death squads were operating in earnest.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 24 May 2004 04:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sure they do, but they also probably complain that Reagan didn't go far enough.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 24 May 2004 05:00 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahahaha, yeah, you're right. These guys are the real fucking terrorists.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 24 May 2004 05:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder if the more recent Catholic-Evangelist cooperation/crossover would be possible if more Catholics knew the number and extent of Bush administration figures with questionable human rights records/legacies from the 1980s?

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 24 May 2004 05:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there anything more to that VV article than "White House staffers meet Lobby Group shocker!" meets "Evangelicals be evangelisin'"?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 24 May 2004 07:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you have to read between the lines a little. As ET pointed out upthread, it assumes you know who Elliot Abrams is.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 24 May 2004 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

But why does it assume that I know the interesting thing, then tell me about people doing their job?

Also they could have got to the point quicker just by pointing at John Ashcroft.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 24 May 2004 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Also they could have got to the point quicker just by pointing at John Ashcroft.

The article isn't about John Ashcroft. Last time I checked, Ashcroft doesn't work in the State Dept.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 24 May 2004 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Once the Born-agains realize that Biblical prophecy has no bearing on present reality, maybe we can work on Arafat and his buddies, most of whom believe that there are NO Jewish historical roots in the area.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Monday, 24 May 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Scary aliens-among-us Harper's piece from last year on said evangelical supporters

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Monday, 24 May 2004 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

The Nation is running with the story now

That high-placed NSC aide would be yet another Reagan-era Iran-Contra retread: the unsinkable Elliott Abrams. As David Corn recounted after this Administration dusted Abrams off, Abrams is a man who denied massacres, lied to Congress, smeared his political enemies as "vipers", and had his testimony interrupted once by a Senator who said
he wanted "to puke" after listening to him.

So, a natural fit as liaison to the Old Testies.

Abrams sat down on March 25 with leaders of the Apostolic Congress -- a group that keeps, among its modest website, a personal page about George W. Bush, complete with photos of Karl Rove at bottom. The group's official symbol -
- much like that of the Presidential Prayer Team -- is a mirror of the US Presidential seal.

The opening passage of the group's own "about us" description reflects a deep obsession with politics. It begins: "In 1981, early in the Reagan Administration, Brother Stan Wachtstetter was able to open the door for Apostolic Christians into the White House."

If you're wondering what the "Apostolic" (another A-word, sorry) stands for, it speaks to the group's belief that the original 12 apostles baptized converts directly in the name of Jesus -- and not in the name of a trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

But really, what more do you need to know about a Christian group that, when it volunteers its testimony, feels there's no more important place to begin than with the date and time it pried open the door to the Reagan White House?

And does it make things clearer if you consider the group's representative
in Israel "believed herself to have been attacked by witchcraft unleashed by proximity to a volume of Harry Potter"? That she refers to converting Jews to Christianity as "Circumcision of the Heart"?

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 28 May 2004 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's not try for anything radical let's justaim for convincing them of 50 yearsof historical roots, nothing more.

― Ed (dali), Friday, 28 May 2004 05:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Bush's speech this week - as is true of all of his speeches - talked about the committment to the culture of life. "They hate life - we love life." This is a not so subtle message to his Christian Coalition supporters that he will continue to try his best to eradicate Roe. V. Wade.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, among the contractors in Iraq are some of our "faith based initiative" buddies. Let's give bibles to the Muslims. let's hold open baptisms in Baghdad. This is not only Bush avenging his father - it's also Bush creating his own Holy War. Neocons plus fundamentalist Christianity plus the Middle East = the end of times, according to fundamentalist belief.
They want the middle east to erupt because that is the revelation! Fucking wingnuts are controlling international policy - through Bush - and the neocons just want complete financial control of the whole world.
Bush - and Christian fundamentalists - want moral control of the whole world. And at the same time, they believe that the end of times is upon us - and they will be taken up into heaven with the morally righteous.
The fundamentalists stay in kahoots with Israel - while publicly denouncing Judaism. israel is more about politics than religion - but it all gets wrapped in the same blanket.
The U.S. - a secular country that has in its constitution a separation between church and state, is engaged in a constant internal battle between morality and constitutional rights.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

And and and I want to know the definition of democracy. Because I sure ain't living in one. This is a meritocracy right now. The basic principle of church vs. state - the basic principles of a democracy bastardized, as religious affiliations in government become part of the state - should not be part of my fucking day to day life.
Iraq will probably be a Muslim state before it is a democratic state - go figure. Al- Sistani has not left his house for years, and he is the religious and political leader for the Shia.
But I don't want to have my "leader" engaged with any religious affiliations. And if there is a heaven, and GWB is going there? I'd rather go to hell.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

America has never been a democracy, but a representative democracy or a republic if you like. Also, America has never had non-religious traditions in government (although it sometimes hasn't as pronounced as now).

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

also you'd think a country founded by white male farmers and merchants to be somewhat of a meritocracy, no?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil - then call it what it is. I'm angry about imposing an idea that is still taking shape upon the rest of the world - the oil world, particularly.
I think many people - myself included - are confused between democracy and capitalism - which is more closely aligned with meritocracy.
I'm a big fan of big band music, and I always seem to be singing this song: "You say potato, and I say potahto - let's call the whole thing off".
You say Abu Ghraib, I say Abu Grab, you say Guantanamo, I say containment. Let's call the whole thing off!
(Not you, of course. But you catch my drift)
So...define democracy for me, really. If it's going to be touted out as a reason to change things - externally and internally - then it should be defined.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

hey dude I'm all for calling it like it is, don't blame me for our stupid president's shorthand.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

So what's your definition?

(just typing that reminded me of Dream Warriors - "My definition is this." and "do not feed the alligators - they will bite you - life's a bitch - I got a hole in my soul about ten feet wide.")

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

my def = nominally representative democracy aka republic with major problems stemming from theocratic, plutocratic, meritocratic and racist tendencies plus bozo anti-intellectualism masqueraded as "populism." There, the US gov and its history summed up in 23 words.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

But can you rap that? That's what I really want.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

no, it would sound too much like anti-con aka no flow.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just trying to be light hearted . It's an excelllent summation. i am searching for the def. of plutocratic.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

plutocratic = rule by the rich, in a way dissimilar to meritocratic (ie. McCain-Feingold didn't do shit, baybee).

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I was lost in a platonic plutocratic world. Kept thinking plato was somewhere in there. My home is about to be "viewed" by potential buyers - I'm not the owner, but I should probably leave ILX in order to help sales. Where shall I go? A bar.

― aimurchie, Friday, 28 May 2004 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

STEP INTO THE CAVE MOTHERFUCKERS

― Be sure to Loop! Loop, Loop, Loop. (ex machina), Friday, 28 May 2004 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

say what you will about bush and his crazy ass fundie supporters, but I still think the fundamental screw up in our mideast policy (unflinching support of israel) will never change due to the influence of the jewish bloc on both parties. kerry is just as slavish as bush is on this issue.

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 28 May 2004 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

jewish bloc my ass. Most Jewish people I know don't give a fuck about Israel.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

but the pandering never stops..

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 28 May 2004 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I need to learn to wield my jewish influence better.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 28 May 2004 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe Obi Wan Wolfowitz could teach me.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 28 May 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"I see your schwartz is as big as mine!"

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 May 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

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