Madonna: the most interesting, challenging and innovative artist of her generation or an increasingly sad, nearly middle aged women who should get some dignity.

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I think that her attempts to look relevant to young people today is looking extremely sad. The while Brittany Spears kiss thing was like watching an aged relative trying to "get down" with the youngsters while drunk at a wedding. Go enjoy your money woman and leave the stage.

― Paul Kelly (kelly), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 02:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm glad somebody finally brought up the kiss

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

A little from both columns but mostly neither.

― Be sure to Loop! Loop, Loop, Loop. (ex machina), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

3 posts by morning!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

The Internet? Is that thing still around?!

― captain gay, Tuesday, 25 May 2004 02:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Lock in b), Eddie.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"nearly" ?!

― captain gay, Tuesday, 25 May 2004 03:32 (twenty-two years ago)

She kissed Britney Spears and that makes her cooler than me.

― Andrew (enneff), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 04:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that a complaint or statement of fact, Andrew? ;)

― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 04:11 (twenty-two years ago)

All of the above. She may be the most interesting, challenging and innovative artist of her generation, but that doesn't make her interesting, challenging or innovative. Actually, strike that. She was interesting, challenging and innovative, but if you include someone like Prince in her generation, she doesn't hold a candle artistically. A lot of Madonna's props are for being better than people expected. Talk about faint praise. If she got back with Jellybean, maybe there would be a future for her.

I saw her at Florent in NY a number of years ago. She looked much prettier than I expected.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 25 May 2004 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard she has a fatwa against her now or something.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, Guy Ritchie is hardly fat.

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 08:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Interesting - yes. Innovative and challenging - hell no!

Increasingly sad, nearly middle aged women who should get some dignity - yes (though I'm not quite sure when 'middle aged' starts).

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

'Love Profusion' sounds so much like 'Mad World' - she just likes to make music for her own kids now.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

And I think rather than interesting and challenging the word is unprecedented.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 09:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"middle aged" has been abolished. I think so.

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)

She's firmly "middle-aged" (though I guess things like that are a little different for the mega rich) - disagree that renders someone incapable of being relevant to the young.
I also reject "challenging" and "innovative" - maybe "fascist" is the word y're looking for.

― cuspidorian (cuspidorian), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

high time that babe got a proper job, like

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Why is this not on ILM

― Be sure to Loop! Loop, Loop, Loop. (ex machina), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Why are you not at school?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Why would anyone other than Madonna describe Madonna as "the most interesting, challenging and innovative artist of her generation"?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Its summer, motherfucker.

― Be sure to Loop! Loop, Loop, Loop. (ex machina), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:56 (twenty-two years ago)

o itsnot, go mofunk yose'f.

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Madonna may well have been the most interesting, challenging and innovative artist of her GENRE-ation tho

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I just thought that said "diggity." I was like, "ha ha, guys..I'm sure Madonna is not lacking for any diggity."

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

No diggity; no DOUBT.

― Blackstreet (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think she's lacking dignity these days just taste and originality.

Her "rich bitch" schtick has totally turned me off to everything she's done in the past.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

If the original question had used the word "musician" rather than "artist" the debate would be clearer. "Artist" needs a broader, looser (if you will) definition, however. After 20 years of doing nothing but releasing less and less catchy dance music (don't even think about the acting debacles), she's still an international icon. That's a kind of artistry. Or art.

And the question is not when middle aged starts but in her case, when it started. Somewhere around the material girl period, I'd say. See her star turn in 'Swept Away' to get feel for how aged middle age can be.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I think she's about the same as she's always been quality-wise and innovation-wise; she hasn't really done anything "innovative" since "Justify My Love" anyway.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Never much liked her but now she's a leathery musclebound hatchet-faced old bag I like her less

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought 'Bedtime Story' was as innovative as 'Justify My Love' but i suppose only in a 'let's take what's going on over there and put it over here' kinda way

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, that's the thing about Madonna's "innovations"; once I started really paying attention to dance music I noticed that most of what she was doing was whatever the hot dancefloor trend of the previous two years had been.

I'm surprised she hasn't done anything with Timbaland or the Neptunes... oh, except she did that Gap commercial with Missy. Ha!

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

My God, was her singing not terrible in that? New lows of tunelessness.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, not the nicest thing ever. She's kind of a case study in how voice lessons can help you out and fuck you up at the same time; her tone now is a lot rounder and much less shrill than in her earlier recordings but she still hasn't figured out the breath support thing, which is causing her pitch problems.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

To answer your previous question Dada, maybe somebody wants to screw her (literally or figuratively or both).

Musically she's been unlistenable since 'Vogue' (itself suspiciously similar to Blondie's 'Rapture') and she was 80% unlistenable before that, although a couple of her ballads were OK. I recall Clive James:
'Her singing's much worse than her acting, her acting's much worse than her dancing, and she can only just dance'.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan totally OTM re: Madonna's "innovation."

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a hard time believing that people who say Madonna is "innovative" have ever left suburbia (where "suburbia" is a mindset rather than a location).

Madonna's biggest strength has always been her ability to market herself; the musical aspect is almost incidental.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

her singing AND songwriting have got progressively worse as she gets older, which is KIND of innovative

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, like I said before, she's traded one set of bad vocal habits for another, so her singing is about the same to me. Also, her songwriting is about the same as it's always been (have you listened to "Everybody", "Jimmy Jimmy", or that Dick Tracy album lately?).

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, every day! (alright no...)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Madonna did more for feminism than any other feminist in the last 25 years. (I think that's the 8,024.55th time I've said that.) Yes, there were plenty of women who were provocative and sassy before her (search: upteen blues/jazz singers), but their effects didn't resonate on a mainstream level the way Madonna has. So yes, I think she is incredibly challenging as an artist. I don't think her music is all that innovative or interesting (whatever that means), though.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

'Madonna's biggest strength has always been her ability to market herself'

The 80's PR/promotions/advertising boom personified: its most complete triumph being itself.

― Fred Nerk (Fred Nerk), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

'Madonna's biggest strength has always been her ability to market herself'

And to re-invent that marketing serially. Now that she's a middle-aging mother with a prissy mid-atlantic voice, how can she either make that relevant to present day youth or age gracefully? Not that I care that much to watch but it's a predicament any constant 'innovator' faces.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I would say that her latest albums show she's not concerned with the youth nearly as much as she's concerned with the "hipsters" and the entire question is rendered somewhat moot as a result.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Youth/hispters, whatever. It all turns into the tyranny of fashion, doesn't it?

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

And before Madonna no one saw women as provocative or sassy? I don't get it.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

she just made it okay for surburbia to be sassy.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Great.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Take it from me, women were really boring before Madonna showed up

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Sam OTM.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to see the contract she signed with Satan. Whatever the deal is, it ends with the line 'and in exchange, I, Madonna Ciccione, shall be compulsory on the planet Earth for as long as I shall live.'

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, I'm knocking myself there (I'm not quite sure if I was suburbia neccesarily). I was dressed from head to toe in lace at her virgin tour stop in dallas when I was 11. but seriously, her turn in recent years has turned me off from everything she's done. I can't stomach it anymore.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

does self-promoting / sexual-imagery-flaunting / money-making / careerist ambition = 'feminism' just because a woman does it ?

(haha maybe post-80's, it does)

(ref. her standard Benny Hill pop-shag imagery and all that 'sex' guff : the 'i am CHOOSING to show my bits' line never just used to get a free pass...
- 'REALLY ??? Are ya SURE ???' (cue 'the subconsciouszzzz....')
- 'it is not a 'choice' for all women to use their looks that way and you are making them (feel) lesser by doing so'
- 'well your 'choice' is LIKE IT'S ALWAYS BEEN and limits OTHER WOMEN'S options' - etc.)
- 'yeah, fine for YOU big gob, take the money and run as per the last x thousand yrs of history...')

haha Momus that is exactly how I've felt - it's like she's been a mandatory part of the curriculum or something

I disliked her initially because she sounded like Olive Oyl - and then alot of 'oh for fuck's sake' curmudgeonliness got involved...

i need to read that v.good thread about sasha frere-jones/justin/'credits' etc. from ilm to counter my long-standing tendencies towards a relevant attitude that was criticising too

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i get pretty tired of madonna diefication. but then she does stuff that I really like (the "how it feels for a girl" song and video are both great, the video def. the only interesting thing guy ritchie has ever done). I'd like her more if she wasn't so omnipresent in culture. I did see clips of her new stage show and it looked k-lame

― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I do like Madonna, but I'm not wild about the deification either. She's made some great pop songs, but she didn't invent the pop song, people.

Sub-thread:
Things Madonna should do:
- Drop the Kabballah crapola. It's boring, pretentious and it makes you look like an insufferably pious ass.
- Stop writing children's books
- Stop reading books by JG Ballard and whatnot. Or fine...read'em, but don't get too carried away with'em.
- Never, ever, ever attempt to rap ever, ever, ever again.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

She's got a 50% hit ratio or so still -- a few trax from American Life were golden but it was a stinker as a whole. Music I loved from front to back, and similarly half the trax from Ray of Light. I'm looking forward to what she does with the war footage etc., and especially if its not done as a statement per se but just a fashionista fetishism. Like I hearted the grenade cig lighter so much!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Her husband is a talentless hack and is bad for her.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't like this 'dignity' idea one bit.

― m. (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Madonna rapping = sure-fire way to entertain one Daniel J. Perry.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

alex i think that list could be applied to nearly every celebrity.(who isn't a rapper by trade. well most of them.)

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Stop reading books by JG Ballard and whatnot. Or fine...read'em, but don't get too carried away with'em.

what of her ideas come from Ballard?

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

she should move back to New York and make a straight-up house album. at least I hope she does that.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I would actually be very into the idea of her collaborating with System Of A Down and KMFDM.

― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 25 May 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

well I have just seen her prancing across the stage in a kilt with a bagpiper doing Into the Groove, so I guess I will have to come firmly down on the side of the latter opinion expressed in the title.

― kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 01:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm with mitch re the 'dignity' thing: if I'm some sort of mega-rich sex god, I want to be kissing Britney and Christina and making stupid records and fucking about. We aren't so sneery about male pop/rock stars acting in far more undignified ways, generally. I'm glad she's doing all this stuff, and I am pretty much in Jeanne's corner re Madonna's significance. I'm a big fan, but obviously her records aren't what they were. I still think she's very sexy.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Her "rich bitch" schtick has totally turned me off to everything she's done in the past.

So you liked everything up to "Material Girl", then? :)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.theory.org.uk/madonna.htm

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

We aren't so sneery about male pop/rock stars acting in far more undignified ways, generally.

c'mon Martin, I know you've read ILM.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Even Sonic Youth hates her now

― Be sure to Loop! Loop, Loop, Loop. (ex machina), Wednesday, 26 May 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070916/people-madonna/

― moley, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 12:04 (eighteen years ago)

nine months pass...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article4215015.ece

― velko, Thursday, 26 June 2008 19:41 (seventeen years ago)

This certainly calls into question the adoptions perpetrated by Madonna.

Richard L.A. Schaefer, Dubuque,Iowa, USA

― velko, Thursday, 26 June 2008 19:42 (seventeen years ago)

what a bitchy thing to say!

― Maria, Friday, 27 June 2008 15:48 (seventeen years ago)

It is thought that the couple did not have a pre-nuptial agreement, which means that the starting point for any settlement would be a split of 50-50.

If I'm not mistaken, it's pointless (and invalid) to have a pre-nup in the UK.

― stevienixed, Friday, 27 June 2008 17:44 (seventeen years ago)

I'm surprised she hasn't done anything with Timbaland or the Neptunes...

-- VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, May 25, 2004 8:45 AM (Tuesday, May 25, 2004 8:45 AM) Bookmark Link

― HI DERE, Friday, 27 June 2008 17:54 (seventeen years ago)

Shackleton's favourite Madonna song is "Frozen".

― Frogman Henry, Friday, 27 June 2008 19:23 (seventeen years ago)

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