Essex - What do you make of it?

(Please note: this is not actually true. I was only born there due to geographical accident and the M25 not being built yet.)

Billericay though? nah.

History everywhere. Just look at the finds resulting from the laying of runways at Stanstead. Boudicca of course. First Essex girl as they say.
The southern corridor lets it down. Pitsea, Basildon, Benfleet, Thurrock. Shit towns, one and all.

Essex #1 has a transient home population, forever up and down to London and complaining about the service on the way. Lager is their relaxation.

The rest of Essex (Essex #2) is ancient, all villages and county towns and "ohh, did you hear about Mrs Grimes? Her's hip's gone again." The clipping of pruning shears and the Tory press.

A Romford conversation, "right, this geezer starts giving it the fucking come on. Knowwotimean?"

"You should have fucking smacked the cunt"

"Yeah, but i wanna shag his sister."

Just...just...horrible.

Tomorrow I am going to Grays, to watch a game of football. I have to go from Liverpool Street, because the Fenchurch Street line is being dug up and repaired. Not that that makes much difference. What I'm wondering is: is there somewhere pleasant, or at least interesting, that I could sensibly visit on the train (setting off late morning, let's not be too ambitious) and still get to Grays for 2.15 or so?

It is quite an important game of football, for me. I fear I may emerge from Essex a disappointed man. That's what usually happens after quite important games of football.

Best song ever about Essex and v. evocative is Essex Dogs by blur. That chugging guitar sound mirrors the noise that the old trains on the misery line (the Southend to London route) used to make until replaced a few years ago.

- which manages to namecheck the Isle of Thanet, Shoeburyness and Burnham-on-Crouch

I don't think so. Everything that was said upthread about north Essex v south Essex is true. You're going to the badlands of the estuary, there is nothing to see.

Grays get to churn up Upton Park now?

It turns out there is quite a good pub in Grays. This was news to me, and indeed everyone I mentioned it to.

http://www.weddingdjmobilediscodiscospartyessexsuffolklondon.co.uk/images/wwb_img1.jpg

lol

which reminds me, i'l 1/4 of the way through meades' 'the joy of essex' and it's brilliant so far

great, great & very underrated county in my own experience

My search for somewhere to live that doesn't require an intergenerational mortgage and my antipathy towards Kent mean I've started to look at places around Thurrock.

Purfleet, Ockendon, Chafford Hundred, etc - anything to particularly recommend them? Rainham Marshes + the ROH venue make Purfleet sound interesting.

Purfleet has a lovely railway station and Rainham Marshes are superb

It is a fantasy of mine to live in Essex one day, weirdly, but more the northern half

Antipathy to Kent, though? Never been to Sheppey?

Thanks. I think I'd prefer to live in the northern half as well but it's not an attractive commute. I may do the Manningtree circular walk this weekend though.

I've never been to Sheppey but it appeals. There are lots of parts of Kent that are ok but Gravesend / Chatham / Gillingham (with the greatest combination of cheap housing and good transport links) are some of the only places I've been to with no redeeming features whatsoever.

prep school daytrip memories of a cold damp winter day with some hardhatted civil service dork explaining how thurrocks sewerage works

doesnt the nastiness of the medway towns compared to most of the thames estuary derive from the militiary history

Medway conurbation is not a place I've been to often, or really ever barring that one primary school trip to the dockyards (and yes - the primacy of the armed forces in these parts will have been noted). North Kent coast has some lovely areas (corresponding to the various RSPB reserves located there - including the Isle of Grain where Boris Johnson wants to commit an act of staggering ecological vandalism but which for now is fairly idyllic) - transport links to London might be problematic though. Essex seems a better prospect in that regard.

It may well do. I'd guess Tilbury still being relatively successful while the ports south of the river have declined could be a factor too.

Xp

site of an early batavophone broadside against pippas arsenal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway

By God, says he, I think the Devil shits Dutchmen

humdrum exurbia has its appeal but that escape to slovenia looks more appealing

Long weekend in Essex due involving Beth Chatto's garden and the staying in Saint Osyth. Any recommendations?

Any recommended bits of coast for a wander?

Was near St Osyth. Visited Point Clear, Brightlingsea, Walton on the Naze, Mersea Island. Seemed a curious bit of the world. Would go back.

Manningtree and around any good?

Manningtree seems to be a quite swanky commuter town now. The river between Flatford and Dedham is v nice though.

Ta. Was pondering it as a "long weekend" sort of place.

for some reason it no longer contains Woodford Green so obviously it must be treated with suspicion.
I remember being told that it did in my lifetime. I thought i moved out of Essex into London when I was 11. To E17.

Woodford Green probably had/has an Essex post code (IG?) instead of a London one (E) despite being in a London borough since the late 60s. Much like Ilford, Romford, Barking, Dagenham, etc

South Woodford was E18 I think. I was living in what I thought was Essex until the late 70s. Going to a school across the county line in South Woodford. Is that an indication of whether it was actually still a line in hindsight?
Seeing Redbridge was a London borough apparently.
I thought there was a sign on the road between Whipps Cross and Woodford's main street saying you are now entering Essex. Not sure what Borderlines etc are like beyond that.

it's all historic essex (across the lea in hackney and tower hamlets is middlesex) - the postcode thing is totally arbitrary but it does seem to affect how people think where they live or where they're from - if i say i'm from london being from E11 no one questions it but you can really piss off some people from romford by calling them londoners (even though we both joined greater london at the same time and have more or less equal claims to essex) - there are all kinds of complicated cultural/aspirational/class/racial identity elements to this i'm sure

There's a huge (well, not huge, but long-lasting and still ongoing) dispute about this on Wikipedia.

In one camp (the majority) there are those who say that somewhere like Romford is a town that WAS historically in Essex (or WAS in the historic county of Essex) but since 1965 has been in Greater London.

Then you have those who insist that Romford IS part of Greater London but also still IS in the historic county of Essex. In other words, the historic county is argued to still exist at some level, just not for the purposes of local government.

There have been lengthy arguments and edit wars about this on various pages for places formerly in Essex (also Middlesex, Kent and Surrey).

so there's no airlock door? between what is and isn't, like.

these debates are weird because people are clearly deeply invested for personal identity reasons but it's all done by proxy through these technical arguments about counties, boroughs, postcodes etc

I go by vibes and to me london and the home counties overlap in this liminal suburban doughnut zone which is where I call home - I've lived in many parts of it and it's a specific vibe partly similar to and party distinct from those of both inner london and the home counties proper

so there's no airlock door? between what is and isn't, like.

The two positions are irreconcilable, but the idea that historic counties still exist in some sense is gradually being squashed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1116#PlatinumClipper96_-_WP:POVPUSH,_edit_warring_and_retaliatory_reverts

I go by vibes and to me london and the home counties overlap in this liminal suburban doughnut zone which is where I call home - I've lived in many parts of it and it's a specific vibe partly similar to and party distinct from those of both inner london and the home counties proper

I don't find it hard to deal with the idea that somewhere used to be in Essex but is now in the London Borough of Havering. But I do have more difficulty with places that have switched counties not involving London. For example, Staines used to be in Middlesex and is now in Surrey. My difficulty might be related to knowing that Middlesex and Surrey both have county cricket teams, and are traditionally rivals, whereas that doesn't arise with Greater London.

Another thing I found strange, and thankfully it was reversed, was that some years ago the government tried to say that East London officially consisted of everything in the east, including both north and south of the Thames. Places south of the Thames I could never think of as being in East London. They are in South-East London.

In the same way, Hertfordshire is to this day officially defined as being in the East of England region, whereas to me it is a county in southern England.

Watching a thing about Johnny Cash last night reminded me that people in Scotland often refer to Fife as the Kingdom of Fife - a relic of Pictish times!

there must be someone still claiming the throne as well

closest I get to sympathising with those weirdos who move the welcome to lancashire signs around is when I realise there are now parts of surrey north of the river, which is just wrong

When I've lived in E11 (Wanstead) and E18 (Snaresbrook), I always thought of them as "London" but it wasn't much further east until I thought of it as "Essex". Now in Oxfordshire, I was surprised to find that somewhere along the Botley Road used to mark the divide between Oxfordshire and Berkshire.

Anyway, not really sure why I was looking at Manningtree specifically. Was looking for somewhere Essex-y for a long weekend and think someone must have recommended somewhere vaguely near there.

Places south of the Thames I could never think of as being in East London

Too right. I don't think anyone thinks of anything south of the Thames as being in East London.

In the same way, Hertfordshire is to this day officially defined as being in the East of England region, whereas to me it is a county in southern England.

I think that 'East of England' region is a relatively recent creation (though when I say recent, it could be as long ago as the 90s). I'm pretty sure Essex and Herts were both in 'The Southeast' before that, which is where they belong. The problem is, presumably, that if you just had 'East Anglia' (Norfolk, Suffolk, maybe Cambridgeshire) it would be much smaller than the other regions. While we're at it, the modern 'Southeast' region apparently includes Oxfordshire and Hampshire whih doesn't seem right either.

We have the "College of West Anglia" in Cambridge, not sure if they have just invented a new region.

Re Herts, we got both Anglia and Thames ITV when I was a kid, so it always felt a bit, cough, liminal. Up until the early 90s you could go out to villages in north east Herts and the accents were very east of England.

Re Herts, we got both Anglia and Thames ITV when I was a kid, so it always felt a bit, cough, liminal. Up until the early 90s you could go out to villages in north east Herts and the accents were very east of England.

That's true. I guess it's on the cusp. But in the west it's the Chilterns, which is hardly eastern England.

So, if I'd booked an over-priced "treat" hotel in Dedham but wanted to stay somewhere *thereabouts* the night before, where might be good to look? Colchester??

What's Saffron Walden like? Is it decent for walks?

(Is there another thread for non-Essex slightly random UK destination wonderings?)

Despite my manifold UK destination seeking, have somehow never been to Saffron Walden

Had never really thought of it except liked the sound of here: https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/28/chaters-saffron-walden-essex-grace-dent-restaurant-review and could plausibly make it on the way from Oxford to Dedham.

well if THAT ghoul likes it, lol

Very pleasant market town, nice church, excellent little art gallery (The Fry) focussing on the Great Bardfield artists (principally Bawden, Ravilious and Ravilious I guess); I haven't yet found the perfect pub there and I wouldn't know about the walks.

I had a nice walk up round there about 5 years ago, near Quendon and Rickling, if that helps.

That Saffron Walden caff was good. Didn't get much further towards Dedham ... roads under water.