dumb Euro 2004 question

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Can someone explain to me on what criterion they choose between two pool runners-up with the same points? Is it on the total number of goals scored? If so, why was everyone saying that a 2-2 draw in the Sweden-Denmark game made it impossible for Italy to go through? What if Italy had scored 5 goals against the Bulgarians?

― euro dumbo, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:30 (twenty-one years ago)

it's done on goal difference IIRC, which means they take the number of goals a team has scored in the group stage and subtract the number of goals they conceded. There are various other things taken into account in the unlikely event of 2 teams getting the same no. of points and the same goal difference...there's a whole list of them in my Euro 2004 guide (which is at home unfortunately) of which the last on the list is "the drawing of lots".

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:33 (twenty-one years ago)

sometimes impossible just=really unlikely.

I have no idea about this occasion.

cross post

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it was done on the three teams performances against each other. Italy only scored one goal against Sweden and none against Denmark. Denmark got two against Sweden and none against Italy etc etc.

― NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:37 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost
Thanks. But if it's on total goal differences, why was the Sweden/Denmark 2-2 draw so significant in eliminating Italy? If it had been a 1-1 draw, goal differences would surely have been the same.

― euro dumbo, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

it has been widely reported in the Italian press today that extra points are awarded just for being Scandanavian.

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

NickB's explanation is confusing. I still don't understand!

― euro dumbo, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:41 (twenty-one years ago)

If three teams are tied, it goes on the head-to-head records (pts, goal diff, goals scored) between those teams.

In this case Italy had 0-0 and 1-1 (=2pts, 1-1), Sweden had 1-1 and 2-2 (=2pts, 3-3) and Denmark had 0-0 and 2-2 (=2pts, 2-2). Therefore there's nothing Italy could've done in their match vs Bulgaria to match the goals scored by Sweden and Denmark in the head-to-head matches. I think it's a flawed system. Similarly if Swe and Den had drawn 0-0, just a 1-0 win over Bul would've put Ita through.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

criteria, as i understand it:

1. points accumulated
2. if 2 teams have same points, the outcome in their match decides it.
3. if the match was a draw, it goes to goal difference.

BUT

there is an exception if 3 teams finish on the same points - instead of using goal difference to decide, the first criteria is to re-assemble a 3-team group table, using only the outcomes in the matches between those 3 teams (hence a 2-2 puts both teams through, as italy only got 1-1 draws against sweden and denmark, the 2-2 would mean that sweden and denmark would have a greater amount of "goals scored" in the new 3-team table, and thus go through)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:43 (twenty-one years ago)

(sorry that was the most inarticulate explanation evah!!!)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

(michael jones' explanation is much clearer and better)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:46 (twenty-one years ago)

(yours is better formatted)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I get it. Crazy stupid system!

― euro dumbo, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

criteria, as i understand it:
1. points accumulated
2. if 2 teams have same points, the outcome in their match decides it.
3. if the match was a draw, it goes to goal difference.

OK, so I was unaware of stage 2. If stage 2. wasn't used, and it went straight from points accumulated to goal difference, would it have changed the outcome of any of the groups?

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:57 (twenty-one years ago)

... and what would have happened if Swe/Den was a 1-1 draw? Is this where the coin-tossing comes in?

― euro dumbo, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:58 (twenty-one years ago)

i will re-write slightly, though it is still unclear...

criteria, as i understand it:
1. points accumulated
2. if 2 teams have same points, the outcome in their match decides it.
3. if the match was a draw, it goes to goal difference.
4. if goal difference is the same, it goes to "goals scored"
5. in the unlikely event that it is still a tie, i think it may go to "fair play" record, or maybe toss of a coin.

BUT

there is an exception if 3 teams finish on the same points - instead of using goal difference to decide, the first criteria is to re-assemble a 3-team group table, using only the outcomes in the matches between those 3 teams (hence a 2-2 puts sweden and denmark through, as italy only got 1-1 and 0-0 draws against sweden and denmark (respectively), last night's 2-2 meant that sweden and denmark had a greater amount of "goals scored" in the new 3-team table, and thus go through)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:59 (twenty-one years ago)

If that were the case, then Sweden go through on the results against each other bit, then it's decided on goal diff between Denmark and Italy. The Danes had the advantage there cos they won 2-0 against Bulgaria.

x-post

― NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:01 (twenty-one years ago)

So why wasn't that in ANY of the guides on how the group tables are worked out? I hate everybody, but the Danes most of all.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

goad difference would still have left italy out

xpoooost

― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

'goal' difference even. *sigh*

― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

thank God I am just scottish and don't care.

STRANGELY, though, I was QUITE happy, to see the czech game and its result!!! even now, I am thinking "that was QUITE STRANGE!!"

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I know it would, Ste, I said as much on the proper Euro thread. But I'd be feeling a bit less bitter this morning if the Danes hadn't conveniently squandered their lead with 1 minute to go, the filthy cheating cunts.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

If Swe-Den had been 1-1 then Ita and Den would have identical records in the three-team mini-table, so it goes to goal diff/goals scored across the whole group. Denmark would've gone through cos their overall goal diff was +2, whereas Italy's was +1. A 2-0 win for Italy and it would've gone to their respective WC2002 and EC2004 qualification records; Italy's is superior.

xpost; Mark - I think it was in the bit from the UEFA website I cut'n'pasted early on the main thread; or at least it could be inferred from that.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

But I'd be feeling a bit less bitter this morning if the Danes hadn't conveniently squandered their lead with 1 minute to go, the filthy cheating cunts.

Yes, of course they did. That's why their goalie was beating the ground in frustration at the equaliser. I expect they're really looking forward to moving camp from Faro and playing the form team in the event rather than the disorganised Dutch or the ropey German.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

this whole "denmark cheating" cry from Italians is absolutely disgraceful, I thought you were better than that Mark?

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

When there is a 3-way tie, they do a group on those three teams. Hence:

p w d l f a pt
Swe 2 0 2 0 3 3 2
Den 2 0 2 0 2 2 2
Ita 2 0 2 0 1 1 2

As you can see, they're level on points, and on goal difference. So the next accepted convention is the goals scored - hence Italy go out. The reason why 2-2 was a key result was that it got both the Scando teams above the Italian result - 1-1 would have bee cool for the Swedes, but left the Danes equal with the Italians.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i heard some italian chap on the tv this morning, i think he may have been a sports writer. he suggested that it was a "subconscious fix" - ie. that the teams certainly made no prior arrangement to fix it, but through their desire to qualify they willed it into being. i think the italian chap thought they fixed it, but was trying not to say something libellous, though.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

of course it was a fix, the italians should now consider the danes and the swedes their arch enemies, that's what makes football so exciting.

― Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:17 (twenty-one years ago)

liam brady on rte last night thought they fixed it, and said "i've played in italy, and i know that this sort of thing happens over there."

an excellent point, except, uh, if it was fixed then italy were not involved. idiot.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Pigshit in 'why the fuck are we always compared to those dumbfucks?' shockers.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Chris, don't be so naive. I'm sure they didn't decide to cheat, but they played knowing that 2-2 was a result that satisfied both teams.

Mostly, though, I'm letting off steam.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, but it didn't happen til late on. Of course no-one saw the Denmark game in Italy so they don't know what a ding dong it was. That first goal was especially good. The only time any collusion was possible was on 89 minutes when they both went "ah well, we may as well stop playing now"

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, they both settled at the end but the way the game went didn't at all resemble a fix to me - there was some really fierce tackling, which no one would have risked if the result was already agreed.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I won't miss this mediocre Italian team. The Danes should have beaten them, they didn't finish off the Swedes with their only decent performance and they couldn't even get a second v the mighty Bulgaria until the fourth minute of injury time (five minutes added on? Why?) by which time the other game was over anyway. And football fans will now get to enjoy Collina's excellent refereeing all the way to the final, where the brave Czechs/Danes will lose to spawny France. (But if Il Heskey himself, Xtian Vieri, holds another press conference make sure there's a transcript up here, eh?)

― Snotty Moore, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Why was 5 minutes added on? I agree with you, it should have ben ten. Do you understand the concept?

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

you're just being daft now

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

'where the brave Czechs/Danes will lose to spawny France'

I think the Czechs/danes could actually beat France.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, they could, but not to spawny France. The tadpoles give them the edge.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.paris-hongkong.com/articles/20010423french/frog.jpg

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Jon Dahl Tomassons goals were things of beauty. I'm surprised to be quite happy that Denmark are in the QFs. Also I will be in Denmark for the final and therefore want them to be playing in it (and then lose to England, obv).

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

It looked quite good fun being a Danish fan last night, what with that swaying thing they had going on. And of course that they helped knock Italy out.

― Jonnie, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

After all this goal difference/mini-group stuff, and before the coin-tossing, I read somewhere that the respective records in qualifying were taking into account too? Not that it's going to matter now, but is/was this the case?

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't believe the mini-group stuff and suspect some crazy maths is at work.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, records in qualification do come in as a late step - I think Steady Mike explained this upthread.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

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