Incoherent hatred of those higher than you on the class ladder: C/D?

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Sparked by this, discovering this, dissapointment with the largely vaccuos, m-c 'anarchists' protesting GWB this weekend (2b expected, i 'spose), and yet another Traveller threatening to kill me today.

(PS this isn't done just to get a load of 'dud' responses)

― fcussen (Burger), Sunday, 27 June 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

obviously this was posted by a UKian where class exists.

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Hating the middle-class seems self-defeating (the difference in US/UK middle-class is an issue, I suppose), given that the lines are indistinct. Why not get both groups together to hate the upper-classes?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

irish

― fcussen (Burger), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

coherent hatred of the concept of class ladders: CLASSIK!!!

― hippy, Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

how does class not exist in america? or, do you use different terms to distinguish between those with different opportunities, and between the haves and the have nots? or are new england wasps and inner city detroiters the same class?

― charltonlido (gareth), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Class is waaaay less obvious here.

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

not that I'm an expert on the Brits, but friends tell me this.

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

which friends? class seems way more obvious in america than britain, where the inequality between rich and poor is much narrower.

― charltonlido (gareth), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

friends who lived in england for a year!

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, yea i might be talking out of my ass...

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think people care as much about class in the US though!

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:11 (twenty-one years ago)

one's opportunities aren't so resolute in the US. No one is bred to do specific things--or those who are aren't omnipresent or dominant.

― dddd, Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)

interesting. i don't know, i haven't really seen a country where class divides are as obvious as in america, but what i don't understand is this attitude that class there doesn;t exist. i guess its because all these euphemisms for class are used instead (trailer trash etc)

― charltonlido (gareth), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)

People care as much about class, Americans just don't phrase it in class terms. Hating yuppies instead of the middle-class, etc.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

there's a lot of degrees of gradiation in the middle class i think

― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

blananced job complexes is the opposite of cheap labor.

― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

there's a lot of degrees of gradiation in the middle class i think

probably not to the guys who live in caravans up the road from me, tho

― fcussen (Burger), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:17 (twenty-one years ago)

an interesting aspect of 'class denial' in many countries, is that it is usually stated by the middle classes and up, its almost a reinforcement rather than a refutation of the class system, in that way.

i have only ever heard class denial from those who started out high enuogh on the ladder to be blind to inequality in society, partly because, the differences are more obvious to those who have to transgress them

― charltonlido (gareth), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I was about to post kind of what Gareth said - I've never heard someone who was on the low end of the class scale deny its existence.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:22 (twenty-one years ago)

we graft a lot of class hatred/prejudice/mania onto the race thing too over here

― benito mussolinington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the american concept ("myth?") of class mobility conceals the avarice & greed that are its foundation? wtf, i dunno.

― andrew l. r. (allocryptic), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:25 (twenty-one years ago)

one's opportunities aren't so resolute in the US. No one is bred to do specific things--or those who are aren't omnipresent or dominant.
-- dddd (...), June 27th, 2004.

Uhh are you kidding me?

I've never been to the UK, and maybe when you're born there, it is absolutely decided what you will be, but in America, I'd say the "american dream" of being whatever it is you want no matter who your parents are, no matter the fact that you probably can't afford the schooling, is largely myth.

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 27 June 2004 18:59 (twenty-one years ago)

And I'd agree that Americans largely hate "yuppies" or parts or things about class more than just classes.

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely class is less embedded in the US because it's had less time historically to establish hereditary heirarchies? Any class divide is purely economic in basis rather than social/regal, due to the lack of a monarchy? You don't get Lords or Dukes in the US but you do get oil billionaires.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Certainly there's no greater access to the means of production in the US than there is in other countries. Maybe less. But socially and culturally the systems that decide what you'll do with your life are much less determinate here than they are elsewhere.

x post

― dddd, Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

It's useless to debate the merits of IHotHtYotCL, it's like saying "gaping head wounds, C/D" instead of "chainsaw wielding maniacs C/D"

― Dan I., Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Ihothtyotcl??

http://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/exploring_chocolate/images/mayan_cacao_god.gif

― andrew l. r. (allocryptic), Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

It's useless to debate the merits of IHotHtYotCL, it's like saying "gaping head wounds, C/D" instead of "chainsaw wielding maniacs C/D"
-- Dan I. (w1nt3rmut...), June 27th, 2004.

OTM
OTM
OTM
OTM
OTM
OTM

― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

But adopting the philosophy of, say, two 19th century middle class Germans is a panacea?

― fcussen (Burger), Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Obv. all societies have classes. This is unavoidable. The soviet union had distinct economic classes. The question is who determines which class you stay in. Many things can determine this, but in some countries, the structure is set up to keep class distinctions hereditary and rigid. In other societies this is more flexible. Britain's accent consciousness is an example. This marker is not nearly as visible in the us. Regional accents are far more apparent than class-related accents. There are plenty of cab drivers in Boston who sound like Ted Kennedy. Genuine upward AND downward mobility is very likely in the U.S.

― Skottie, Sunday, 27 June 2004 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Ted Kennedy is of course not a New England WASP, being catholic and irish. A WASP figure head might be Wm. Buckley but the people who match his stats are statistically insignificant. Maybe GHW Bush.

― Skottie, Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

People care as much about class, Americans just don't phrase it in class terms. Hating yuppies instead of the middle-class, etc.
-- miloauckerman (suspectdevic...), June 27th, 2004.

OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

There are MANY parts of America where 'received pronunciation' is favoured over the local regional accent.

There are plenty of old-style DAR/Mayflower WASPS kicking around who are not GW Bush or Wm F. Buckley.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Buckley's Catholic, no?

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Classwise the East Coast (minus Providence!) is essentially the same as in England. The rest of the US is where it's more amorphous.

― dddd, Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

There are MANY parts of America where 'received pronunciation' is favoured over the local regional accent. No, this simply isn't true

There are plenty of old-style DAR/Mayflower WASPS kicking around who are not GW Bush or Wm F. Buckley. Not "plenty" who receive any kind of measurable "class privileges" as a result. How many don't have jobs and live like GHW Bush?

Buckley's Catholic, no? You may be right. no idea. bad choice.

― Skottie, Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Obv. all societies have classes. This is unavoidable. The soviet union had distinct economic classes.

all is coherent now thx! (u cheap labor lova)

― SÃ©bastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Sunday, 27 June 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Genuine upward AND downward mobility is very likely in the U.S.

Haha, keep telling yourself that.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 27 June 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Ted Kennedy is of course not a New England WASP, being catholic and irish. A WASP figure head might be Wm. Buckley but the people who match his stats are statistically insignificant. Maybe GHW Bush.

william f buckley is roman catholic, not WASP.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Already admitted my ignorance, Eis.

― Skottie, Monday, 28 June 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Using WASP as an expression of class, quibbling about Irish v. A-S and Catholic v. Protestant seems pointless today.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

just as long as they're not jews ... or faggots

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

:-)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"i have only ever heard class denial from those who started out high enuogh on the ladder to be blind to inequality in society"

I've heard lots of NZers say it is much less classist (classy?) than the UK. These people have not all been particularly wealthy, or well-educated or white (because if there is a class thing here it is a race thing too) so I don't believe this illusion (?) is limited to higher classes.

― isadora (isadora), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Using WASP as an expression of class, quibbling about Irish v. A-S and Catholic v. Protestant seems pointless today. I agree.

― Skottie, Monday, 28 June 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Do "ironic blowjobs" (and you know that has to exist in the US prep schools as much as UK public schools) count, Eis?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

My question about a society is not whether there are class divisions, but whether someone will be prevented from moving between them, either up or down. Of course there's class.

However, it's much more important to be classy.

― Skottie, Monday, 28 June 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i was being silly upthread, of course. but one thing that has ALWAYS gotten my dander up is how the prototypical american racist/bigot is always seen to be an "archie bunker" type -- a blue-collar type -- when there's just as much (if not more) bigotry among upper-middle/upper classes.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Buckley's Catholic, no?

Irish Catholic, no less. However, he is a relic of the past "WASP Ascendancy." As long as you were white, wealthy, and Anglophilic; not Jewish or obtrusively Catholic; and supported the Establishment's institutions and practices, high society wouldn't discriminate against you. [/sarcasm]

The great American myth of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is increasingly mythic, but a lot of Americans still believe it. What infuriates me is people who don't recognize that they have received benefits that increasingly aren't available to the underclass. (The sociologists' definitions of "middle class" and "working class" have very little in common with the average American's definition of these terms.)

― j.lu (j.lu), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

If by high society, you mean getting invited to fancy parties in newport, you're probably right. If you mean participating in the economic life of the country, it's not the case.

― Skottie, Monday, 28 June 2004 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

The "WASP Ascendancy," up until 1965 or so, ran the U.S.'s economic life from those Newport parties.

― j.lu (j.lu), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"A Working Stiffâ€™s Manifesto Confessions of a Wage Slave" by Iain Levison talks about how a great participation to the economic life of the country English degree-holders are making! Check it out!

Catholics are soooo not WASPs.

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 28 June 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

up until 1895

― Skottie, Monday, 28 June 2004 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I think, in the US, a lot of class division has to do with where you went to school - and most, if not all, the ivies still use lineage as a reason for acceptance. There is a lot of mobility in that system, but if you prep at the right place, you will matriculate to the right place, and job offers will be waiting for you. More so, than, say, a 4.0 at a good state school.

― aimurchie, Monday, 28 June 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

that might be true, but i don't know cos i've never been to the UK. me and my family have definitely experienced classism here tho! this could be attributable to a few things:
1) working class in the EIGHTIES - relatively conservative atmosphere, think governments of the time (EWWW ROGERNOMICS!!) and basically fuckall assistance for people like us.
2) living in the rural outskirts of a small town where everyone is in everyone else's business, it matters if you stand out in some way. not saying that we were the only working class people in oamaru, but we were surrounded by wealthy farmers and quite isolated from other working class people.

i grew up with a hatred of people higher on the class ladder than my family, basically cos everyone around us was fecking nasty and classist toward us. i don't think that is very incoherent or hard to understand.

NB i acknowledge that yes i am middle class now and i don't have a kneejerk hatred of the middle classes anymore. but i have no patience for persons who fail to acknowledge the fact that not everyone has money to burn, especially if they consider themselves leftist and open-minded, you should know better (rant aimed at no-one on this board).

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Monday, 28 June 2004 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

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