the crisis of masculinity: media myth or reality?

Well the usual media line is that women have changed, progressed, expanded their horizons and gender roles and generally moved forward in the last 20 years, while men are left wringing their hands, unable to change and increasingly anxious about their role in modern society.

DDo you believe this to be the case? Personally, I don't see things tthat way, I think it's a very simplistic picture.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-06-02-japan-women-usat_x.htm
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_102698.html?nav_src=newsIndexHeadline

i blame britney spears for all of this.

I don't know if this is really the right thread for this, since it's actually about the inverse, but, here, discuss:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/54105/the-one-thing-all-men-feel-but-never-admit

i think that article is a more accurate depiction of the situation for men today than the idea that men are being "feminized" somehow. growing up i felt uncomfortable about revealing to people when i felt unhappy. i should have gotten help for depression in high school but i misrecognized the disorder as just being "weak-willed" or "self-indulgent" or something. this wasn't my parent's fault it came from somewhere else.

Actually I think there are probably both forces at work -- a more modern view of masculinity and a backlash that leads to even more extreme, caricatured ideas of masculinity (the ice cold narrators of cocaine rap, the overmuscled bodybuilders, the MMA fighters, etc.)

I always even thought of myself as a "sensitive" guy, but I realized in my mid-20s, basically through therapy, that I actually was ridiculously out of touch with my own real feelings. I was an unusually "articulate" guy and yet in therapy I realized that my vocabulary actually contracted massively when I tried to talk about anything I actually felt.

I have no problems talking about my feelings

Maybe it's really a different issue, but I think that some of the superficially "liberal" ideas about raising boys have their own flaws -- boys wind up better socialized but not necessarily more able to express feelings. A lot of anxious waiving away of insecurities instead of acknowledgement of them as real, etc.

i had a similar experience, hurting. i never wanted to be hypermasculine, really... or even especially masculine, or what i would think of as masculine... but i definitely felt pressure to keep my composure, and to be one of those happy, confident, always successful, everything seems easy people. this may have been pressures arising from the socioeconomic environment i grew up in too. i went to a very elite (lol) prep school and my classmates were smart, athletic, beautiful, rich, etc.

i do think the pressure to not show emotion had something to do with masculinity though, even though i wasn't thinking of it in those terms. like, "i am smart and privileged, i should be happy about who i am" and this should inhibited my ability to recognize and combat the corrosive self-esteem issues i was actually feeling.

xxxp i discovered the same thing. thing is, with male friendships and socializing feelings and personal stuff are never talked about, never a subject, unless it's one of those rare drunken nights where someone opens up about what's really going on in their lives and the whole thing feels like a Very Special Episode. at least that's how i've experienced it.

oh yeah otm. i only have two male friends who i ever *really* talk to, and they aren't my closest friends, necessarily, just dudes who are more comfortable talking sincerely about stuff

That whole doc is weird I was never taught to stay silent

you're a lucky dude then, waterface

thing is, with male friendships and socializing feelings and personal stuff are never talked about, never a subject, unless it's one of those rare drunken nights where someone opens up about what's really going on in their lives and the whole thing feels like a Very Special Episode. at least that's how i've experienced it.

― Spectrum, Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is so OTM, and I find it so difficult tbh, like really fucking lonely. Of course I can talk to my wife, but the realities of that are (1) some of these ideas about masculinity still pervade relationships with women too, so that even well-meaning women are sometimes conditioned to not want to hear it from a man, and (2) the fact is, when you have a partner who relies on you, regardless of gender, they may not want to hear your insecurities all the time because it can make them nervous.

I have I guess three friends who I feel like I can open up to, all are from college, and all live kind of far from me now and I don't see them that often, and I haven't been able to form a single friendship like that since, and sometimes it feels sort of like being in a desert.

I always even thought of myself as a "sensitive" guy, but I realized in my mid-20s, basically through therapy, that I actually was ridiculously out of touch with my own real feelings. I was an unusually "articulate" guy and yet in therapy I realized that my vocabulary actually contracted massively when I tried to talk about anything I actually felt.

i could have written this post, as well as other stuff people have posted here (Treeship, etc.). it's remarkable how much men are trained to repress feelings. also remarkable how few avenues there are for men to experience fellowship, intimacy, and companionship with other men

at the same time, i feel like therapy along with solid, intimate friendships with other men and learning how to express feelings has helped me to "become more of a man" -- becoming a man in the sense of becoming an adult, in a healthy way

i always need to reflect that there are several different notions of "masculinity" floating around, some of which i can claim for myself as a positive thing.

none of which have anything to do with all the bullshit in the marketing of masculinity

that some of the superficially "liberal" ideas about raising boys have their own flaws -- boys wind up better socialized but not necessarily more able to express feelings.

For what it's worth, I am a parent of a young son, and culturally speaking a liberal who hangs out with other liberal parents, and I think current popular practices among this set are very much centered on teaching boys that their feelings are real, they count, they are allowed to talk about them, while at the same time teaching them how to manage them (no contradiction -- it is hard to manage emotions that you are denying to yourself and to your parents that you have)

that's good. i think things were different in the 80s and 90s though...

xp i agree with that assessment, also being the parent of a young son

Well I hope that's true. I felt like I was raised with a lot of idealized and unrealistic ideas, sort of a perfect world view where sharing is great and everyone should be nice and all those things you're insecure about "aren't real" and "don't matter." Probably this is partly just individual to my parents, who were too anxious to really face my problems. But I think in my generation "sensitive" was sometimes confused with "nice" for boys.

Like I think for example male anger was associated with a lot of negative things, and therefore the "right" way to be was to not get angry. Which of course just leads to depression.

pretty much all the anger I was exposed to was petty and selfish and entitled, so I pretty much don't recognize righteous anger,
But there wasn't anything particularly gendered about it

along with crippling emotional repression, there the constant measuring of self against some masculine ideal. intellectually, i reject the entire construct, but i can't help following its dictates anyway. some dude challenges me, and i have to bark back, show i'm up for whatever. if i don't, i feel like a complete loser. i'm always trying to demonstrate capability and perhaps even dominance. i police my behavior to make sure it doesn't seem "too gay". (i don't try to do this, it just happens. when i catch myself, it seems stupid as hell, but the underlying impulse remains.)

all of this seems to reflect the internalization of toxic masculinity. not saying "boo-hoo, feel sorry for me cuz i was born a guy", just that this patriarchal bullshit hurts everybody.

having relationships where talking about personal things and getting support would've made all the difference for me, but that really doesn't exist when you're a guy, so i spiraled into nearly a decade of depression and suffered in total silence. seeing a therapist is making all the difference, but it took that to finally start to get better. no way in hell this would be happening with a girlfriend/wife or guy friends. nobody really wants to hear personal shit from a guy, it's like walking down the street with your dick hanging out of your zipper.

xp yeah, it's all fine and good to promote guys being more in touch with their feelings, but society hasn't changed much in that regard. it's a good idea on paper but it really doesn't work in practice.

nobody really wants to hear personal shit from a guy, it's like walking down the street with your dick hanging out of your zipper.

otm. whether or not that's actually true, it's certainly what we're conditioned to think & feel. i wrestled with the idea while posting to the "right to be fat" thread. i felt like i was making an unwelcome spectacle of myself, but in the end i just thought, "fuck it, i'm allowed to have these feelings and talk about them."

people often say (and even cite statistics showing) that men are more comfortable with their bodies than women. that's probably true, but the fact that men aren't supposed to sincerely express that kind of self-criticism has to figure in.

in some sense I think it's to a dude's advantage not to be subjected to a culture that permits self body critiquing as a normal pastime and as a way of bonding.

hell yeah, otm, but being subject to a culture obsessed w/ body shaming sucks no matter how you slice it, especially when you're not allowed to talk about the damage done

the trade offs of having feelings unacknowledged vs having them thrust upon you and magnified as a social obligation.

everybody wins!

There's a certain amount of "posturing" needed for anyone, male or female, to get through their day. Obviously no one can get very far in life with their heart always on their sleeve. But for men I think there's much less of a healthy balance, like it's still easy for me to fall into the trap of thinking as though I shouldn't even have feelings.

nobody really wants to hear personal shit from a guy, it's like walking down the street with your dick hanging out of your zipper.

it's all fine and good to promote guys being more in touch with their feelings, but society hasn't changed much in that regard. it's a good idea on paper but it really doesn't work in practice.

the 'doesn't work in practice' phrase is wrong, imo. part of it is about building safe and supportive environments in your life where it is okay and safe to express feelings. most social environments don't permit this, sure. but in therapy, close intimate friendships, or in good relationships with spouses or partners, men can build safe places for intimacy. we need networks of support and fellowship whether or not society thinks its okay to do so. i surely need those networks, otherwise i'm unhealthy and detached and miserable and may not even be aware of it. i've worked hard to build and sustain those networks. so i now have communities where people are 100% okay with hearing "personal shit from a guy."

sure, there are absolutely environments where i understand that i have to be composed and have my shit together. but afterwards i can go to my friends/family/therapist and vent and find support, and that's a really good thing.

at the same time though, i'm constantly re-learning when and where it's okay to express feelings, and tbh sometimes it may not seem wise or safe to do so, but it's absolutely necessary. e.g i once had a shitty and manipulative and mildly abusive colleague who was making me feel miserable. in the past i'd probably just "man up" and shrug it off but i was feeling fucking crazy. i ended up setting a boundary and expressing that i didn't appreciate how she was treating me and that i deserved respect. it was a big move for someone like me who really doesn't want to stir anything up and just wants to be laid back. and it totally worked, too, she was super respectful and collegial with me after that. i still didn't like her but being honest about how i felt changed my situation from toxic to manageable.

My adolescence(I think) had me burn off so many emotional nerve systems like they were heads of the Hydra, and I don't know how much culture had to do with that specifically vs the upbringing I had from my parents(not to mention what effect culture had on them).

Either way, it's led to many, many years of appts with the analyst.

all those things you're insecure about "aren't real" and "don't matter."

Right so this is exactly what parents in 2013 are counseled not to say to their kids -- "emotion coaching" is the key word here

Whether it's gonna work I honestly don't know, but what can you do but try?

Like the classic "bullies are just insecure." Great I will remind myself that as they knock my books out of my hands every day.

Once i had to have a peer mediation meeting with a bully who targeted me to discuss how my intelligence made him insecure

This was in 4th grade

I guess I have heard/read a little bit about the emotion coaching approach -- you say things like "I notice that your feeling angry" "I see that your very upset about what happened" etc. to recognize the feeling and let the child feel it, right? Seems good except I wonder how the child actually experiences that, like do they get the message the way it's superficially intended. IDK.

Once i had to have a peer mediation meeting with a bully who targeted me to discuss how my intelligence made him insecure

― Treeship, Thursday, July 18, 2013 4:50 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think maybe it would have actually been helpful for someone to try to explain stuff like this to me in a way that doesn't further fuel any superiority/inferiority complex. Like not "he just hates you because you're smart" (which implies you're both (1) better than him in the eyes of adults and (2) doomed to be picked on), but instead, getting me to sympathize with people who might have resented it a bit that I showed off.

Or empathize, rather.

I think that was an excuse for this kids behavior. I remember feeling like I was in trouble too. But i dont remember exactly what happened

Also i think it was nonsense. I was kind of weird and spacey and thats why i drew this kids attention.

yeah, probably nonsense

My mom used to say shit like "well the kids who feel unpopular in school always wind up the cool ones in college," -- just completely useless to, say, an eight year old. No tools or strategies for dealing with life in the present whatsoever. Maybe there's nothing you can do as a parent -- it scares me a lot as a parent. I don't know what I'd tell my daughter if she was being bullied. Some of this isn't really about masculinity I guess, except that I'm saying that some of this new, superficially "softer" approach fails to actually get boys any closer to dealing with their real feelings.

I mean I think growing up I was kind of trapped between that classic fear of being a "pussy", and the "new" approach which really just meant suppressing other feelings, like anger and aggression.

tune in and drop out

I remember wishing I could be homeschooled. In hindsight though dealing with bullies made me more skeptical of people in a good way. I still tend, too often, to assume that everyone is my friend, so it is sort of jarring still whenever someone is rude or inconsiderate to me, leading me to apologize when I should really react more assertively... Not cause a confrontation, but also not acquiesce to whatever they are saying. I think this situation would be worse if I hadnt dealt with bullies in school.

But yeah hurting, i think maybe it would have been better if my parents told me "fuck those kids who are bothering you, they are in the wrong" instead of variations on "you just try to do your best and dont worry about other people," which sounded abstract and meaningless to me... just vague advice to take the "high ground." Who knows though. I'm not even sure I'm remembering these situations accurately.

sad to say, but i stopped bullying cold by getting into fist fights with the people bullying me. that shit worked -- bullied one day, "mad respect" from people at school the next. and I got my ass kicked. i mean, these are kids we're talking about here, i have no idea how you'd talk emotional sense into them. oh lord i dread the day if i ever have kids.

I dont ever want kids. I had an objectively decent childhood - nice parents, plenty of free time to draw and catch grasshoppers and stuff - but still I remember it as being mostly hellish.

damn i tend toward hyperbole don't i. my childhood wasn't "hellish". it was fine but i like being an adult more.

Can we talk about how being from mars has affected us

It's made me deathly afraid of Slim Whitman.

as a counterpoint, I've never really had a problem w/ this. mb when I was a growing up; I remember the realization that I cld actually be friends w/girls & feeling suddenly relaxed. some guys are hard to talk to tho, & others can be Very Intense when they talk about their feelings which obv tends to push ppl away & exacerbate their feelings. being really bummed out about life w/ friends, going for walks, agonising over girls, wondering about the state of the universe, making each other laugh at our supreme alienation &c. was one of my main ways of hanging out when I was a teenager, I don't think there's a universal problem

For what it's worth, I am a parent of a young son, and culturally speaking a liberal who hangs out with other liberal parents, and I think current popular practices among this set are very much centered on teaching boys that their feelings are real, they count, they are allowed to talk about them, while at the same time teaching them how to manage them (no contradiction -- it is hard to manage emotions that you are denying to yourself and to your parents that you have)

This is otm in my experience. I have two sons, and both at home and at school/pre-school, they've been consistently encouraged to recognize and articulate their feelings. My older one has a tendency toward meltdowns when things don't go his way, and between his mom and me and the people at school, we've developed this nice system where as soon as he starts to get upset, he has a set of 5 cards that he goes through that give specific directions. Basically, it gets him to sit down, calm down, and then the final step is "tell a teacher or grown-up how you feel." And he's good at it! He'll say, "I'm sad because..." or "I really wanted to..."

So I think some of the touchy-feely psychobabble of the last several decades really has actually sunk in, at least to some degree. When you have male pro athletes giving tearful interviews and that kind of thing, which happens way more now than it used to, I do think it has a real effect.

current popular practices among this set are very much centered on teaching boys that their feelings are real, they count, they are allowed to talk about them, while at the same time teaching them how to manage them (no contradiction -- it is hard to manage emotions that you are denying to yourself and to your parents that you have)

This sounds good and positive. I will be delighted if it also involves them realising that their feelings ARE feelings and that's OK rather than going "I'm too manly/logical to have feelings so any thoughts which appear in my head are clearly 100% objective fact, whereas any objections from women or people I think I'm better than are the shrieking hysteria of feelings-beasts", which I have heard variations on quite a lot lately.

Not that it's a solely male problem but it does skew that way a little. Sorry for bitter!

also p. offtopic I guess but re Hurting's post last night

My mom used to say shit like "well the kids who feel unpopular in school always wind up the cool ones in college," -- just completely useless to, say, an eight year old.

I'm not male but also heard a lot of "at university you get to meet more interesting people and be less lonely / the work is more interesting which makes it easier bcz motivation / you'll discover who you really are and have awesome fun and then get a better job than your bullies" which made me feel even more lost aged 21 when I'd flunked out of university and couldn't work out what I wanted to do, find an interesting job, interest the people I'd imagined would be "my own tribe", etc.

(my parents were both from the first generation in their families to go to university and my mother in particular went from a p. straitlaced and ignored childhood in that grand old hippy era of freedom and self-discovery so I guess I can't really blame her for sharing her enthusiasm, too bad I was a spoilt kid from the slacker angst generation)

http://www.believermag.com/exclusives/?read=interview_gornick

BLVR: Do you think that the aimlessness of fiction these days has something to do with changes caused by the feminist movement?

VG: That may very well be. These are generations of transition. You can’t make a real strike against a whole culture as we have and not have adverse effects. It’s like—what do they call it when you take a drug that helps you, but it has side effects? That’s what this is. It’s a side effect. No doubt it’s true that a great deal of the self-confidence of men has been chipped away, but all these young men who write these terribly depressed books about being themselves—“I’m so depressed I turn on the email six times a day, or ten times a day,” or that kind of thing—they’re ridiculous. But it’ll change. It’ll change in your lifetime for sure. But you may have to live twenty-five years before [it happens]. When your bunch are in their forties, or fifties, let’s hope for something better. It’s going to be different. Who knows.

“I turn on the email”. How quaint.

It’s like—what do they call it when you take a drug that helps you, but it has side effects?

Very articulate. Is this person a professional writer?

you should be so articulate, when you're 80 and being interviewed

oh durr, didn't actually look to see who it was

Is there a male equivalent of a lady with lots of make up on preening for a camper?

I believe the most direct equivalent would be a man with lots of make up on preening for a camper.

camper?

more camp