'Ghost In The Shell 2: Innocence'

I seriously beg to differ. I've seen it recently and still think it's incredible. You are on drugs.

I've been desperately trying to find out more about 'Innocence', and aside from seeing some cool trailers on a Japanese website, I've heard zip. Did it get theatrical release outside Japan? Is it on DVD? Talk to me.

There is no UK release info :(

However you can buy the DVD from Japan - we'll have to have our own screening!

It confused me a bit when I saw it the first time, but I hadn't read the book, so you'll be fine.

It's a crime that I've not seen this yet

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Fuji/3598/images/shirow/tank.gif

althouhg its an ova.
come again?

ok, i just got the special edition of GITS1 cheap, so methinks a screening is in our future, mr. robster! i may try to d/l a bit of the 'standalone' stuff before i get all crazy and start buying it up (although i did find the first 4 episodes package online semi-cheap)

loved this

that mansion scene is one of the greatest scene in the history of animation, imho.

yes. straight rip of neuromancer but what a rip

posted some hi res screen caps here my thread of screencaps my thread of screencaps

i don't think oshii's made a wholly satisfying movie since patlabor 2 but this was pretty damn good from a visual candy perspective

expecting coherence from anything spun off a shirow comic is kinda asking for disappointment though

I will investigate the oshii ouevre but in the meantime does anybody have a basset hound I can pet

should watch this again cuz it went right past me when i saw it as a teenager but one of my housemates speaks highly. still a huge fan of the first one, especially of the scene that's just a montage of stuff going on in future-tokyo while the high-pitched choral music plays and the basset hound peeks forlornly off the bridge. whenever people praise the second one to me it just sounds like a bunch more stuff like that so idk why i didn't like it.

well i mean he's really good at the faintly unsettling montage set to evocative music thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmlwhaEEgE

yeah love that stuff. the tank crawling past the alley with the cat in it especially. not seen anything except the two GitSes tho.

I watched the original again a few weeks ago, it does not date particularly well. In fact, it's a really bad movie.

lol i dont even remember having this opinion, p sure i dont stand by it

just watched first 2 episodes of GITS stand alone complex. not bad! it's got all the crazy politics/mindfuckery of the movies, but stripped down into quick little bite-sized nuggets that start and finish in 30 minutes

SAC is kinda great and I love all the in jokes

http://i.imgur.com/R0vFfja.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ovaITVg.jpg

scarlett is the worst robot to play kusanagi

garbage hollywood remake

lol i've never seen this movie even though i love incoherent oshii

http://i.imgur.com/HznM7QU.png

uhhh

major...kusanagi?

she'll be fine

although it will be weird if she is named kusanagi...is she? I dunno.

Is this a sequel to Breakfast At Tiffany's?

xpost She is indeed.

Like, within the past year, there have already been fairly sizeable casting controversies about Aloha and that stupid looking Egyptian gods movie. How hard would it have been to just change the goddamn character's name, really?

or cast an asian actress?

burn hollywood burn

Is changing a character's name as an excuse to cast a white actress really much better than having a white actress play an Asian character? Seems like a superficial difference, especially if the first is being done only to avoid the second.

No, I meant specifically in this case, where one assumes that the movie was at least partially filmed by the time these other casting controversies were a thing, it would've been wise to change the character name. Of course in the grand scheme of things it would've been a better choice to cast an Asian actress to play an Asian character.

The same nerds who masturbate to the original character masturbate just as much to Johansson; I don't see a problem.

You know, all this controversy about whitewashing in Hollywood makes me curious as to why Mark Twain hasn't come under fire for that scene with the fence in Tom Sawyer.

http://screencrush.com/ghost-in-the-shell-whitewashing-scarlett-johnasson-vfx/

According to multiple independent sources close to the project, Paramount and DreamWorks commissioned visual effects tests that would’ve altered Scarlett Johansson in post-production to “shift her ethnicity” and make the Caucasian actress appear more Asian in the film.

ffs

good i've always wondered how charlie chan would fare in a rain slicked cyberpunk dystopia

It's kind of impressive how quickly this movie has turned me off. I was never a huge GITS head but I enjoyed what I saw, and in the abstract I think Johansson makes some amount of sense in the role after seeing her handle Black Widow and Lucy, but the entire problematic backdrop against which this is happening is breathtaking and alienating.

I have never heard Chiaki Kuriyama speak English so I have no idea if it would have made sense to cast her but she was the first person I thought of when that initial image popped up.

I wonder if they'll sneak a basset hound into the film somehow

DJP - I think you'd really like the tv series they did, at least the first season - Stand Alone Complex

remember cloud atlas?

http://i.imgur.com/aawobWr.jpg

Aren't anime drawings kind of whitewashed to begin with?

why would you say that?

DJP - I think you'd really like the tv series they did, at least the first season - Stand Alone Complex

SAD is what I watched, and you would be correct

why would you say that?

The convention of white-looking people in anime being read as Japanese by Japanese audiences?

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/08/30/guest-post-why-do-the-japanese-draw-themselves-as-white/

One of the explanations I've also read is that it all flows from Tezuka inadvertently setting up visual standards for entire media, and himself being heavily influenced by Disney

you calling them 'white-looking' while sharing that link is *thinking face emoji*

flowing up to a post featuring

'Aren't anime drawings kind of whitewashed to begin with?'

Yes.

I can't imagine that a fully Americanized live-action version of Ghost in the Shell - set in the US w/ American character names, etc. - would have offended anyone or even pissed off the diehards all that much. Instead, as I understand it, this will be set in Japan, and at least until very recently, ScarJo was set to play "Major Kusanagi".

How the fuck did anyone ever think, "Yeah, let's go with that!"

?

The characters in anime don't really "look white" is the point. They look abstracted, simple. To white people - who think of Asians in terms of their differences from some supposedly "normal" white baseline - Anime characters created without such differences in mind may indeed seem to look white. But that has nothing do with the drawings themselves (and everything to do with passive racism).

ghost in the shell is one of my favourite science fiction animes.

choosing scarlett johansson to portray major kusanagi is further evidence that dreamworks and other major film production companies are out of touch with a changing world -- and it isn't as hyperbolic as it sounds. i think a majority prefer consistency when transferring anime to live-action remakes. choosing a white american actress indicates that hollywood still thinks there is a higher demand for a stereotypically "beautiful white woman" on the big screen. i do not watch the oscars, but i read a little about asians being underrepresented in hollywood for decades at the time chris rock was poking fun at asians. it is very true that they are underrepresented, and dreamworks didn't consider this when casting the actress for the part of one of the most popular characters in anime, which is pretty shameful. i have read that it is very difficult to find acting jobs as an asian in the us right now, and casting directors are unwilling to cast them because they do not conform to the "hollywood type." and now they want to make johansson look "asian" through visual effects? that's just ridiculous.

with regard to anime characters looking white, the japanese people's opinion on this matter is that this is an american and western invention, as was described on this blog post many, many years ago: http://rabitsokuhou.2chblog.jp/archives/67710199.html

to simplify it, there are two types of anime characters: japanese and non-japanese. japanese anime characters are idealized versions of themselves. for example, if a woman character is japanese and is to be fierce and dominant, illustrators will draw her taller, with larger hips and larger breasts than the average, homogenous japanese woman. sure, there are some japanese woman who have larger breasts, but it is by no means as common as it is in the us. and their average height is well documented as being shorter than the average white american. through dietary changes and welcoming more foreigners, i do believe japanese people's bodies are changing, so they may reach a point where their gene pool is more mixed. where these ideals come from is a completely different topic, but one to consider. after the second world war, japanese people's views on society were highly influenced by western culture, and so did their ideals of a perfect mate, and it has been reinforced by their own misguided view of what a westerner or american looks like and how they act.

when learning how to draw anime characters in japan, instructors make generalizations about westerners. i don't think there is much use to nitpick here, because every country does this when drawing people from other countries. but basically, the non-japanese anime character has light hair (blonde, shades of brown, or red), is tall, has a larger physique and has larger eyes. the typical japanese person will tell you this themselves about foreigners (but they usually really mean americans). i understand their broad generalizations because they were such an insular country up until recently. thankfully, this is changing. but there are certainly many japanese men and women who prefer people from their own country and other types of foreigners.

and i just want to mention that i particularly do not find johansson attractive, despite being named sexiest woman of the year a while ago. but finding a good asian actress is hard these days because they've been shunned by hollywood et al so much for so long.

I like Scarlett but even aside from the ethnicity thing she doesn't seem right for this part. I always thought Gina Carano was a lot like the Major. You know, from Haywire.

I would have guessed that Hollywood wouldn't have cast an Asian actress because they require a big enough star for the film, but if they're going to change her face, surely her name isn't going to have the audience draw of her facial recognisability?
If they had insisted on a Japanese star I think Rinko Kikuchi would be who they'd want.

Just looked up the Memoirs Of A Geisha Wikipedia, it was star power back then too.

Casting controversy

Controversy arose during casting of the film when some of the most prominent roles, including those of the geisha Sayuri, Hatsumomo and Mameha, did not go to Japanese actresses. Zhang Ziyi (Sayuri) and Gong Li (Hatsumomo) are both Chinese, whereas Michelle Yeoh (Mameha) is an ethnic Chinese from Malaysia. More notable is the fact that all three were already prominent fixtures in Chinese cinema.

The film-makers defended the decision, however, and attributed "acting ability and star power" as their main priorities in casting the roles and director Rob Marshall noted examples such as the Mexican actor Anthony Quinn being cast as a Greek man in Zorba the Greek.[15]

Opinion in the Asian community was mixed. To some Chinese, the casting was offensive because they mistook geisha for prostitutes, and because it revived memories of wartime Japanese atrocities.[citation needed] The Chinese government canceled the film's release there because of such connections, and a website denounced star Zhang Ziyi as an "embarrassment to China."[16] This was exacerbated by the word "geigi" (芸妓?), a Japanese name for geisha used in the Kantō region, which includes Tokyo. The second character (妓) could sometimes mean "prostitute" in Japanese language, though it actually had a variety of meanings and there was a clear distinction between geisha and prostitutes which were called "Yūjo" (遊女?). The character 妓 only means "prostitute" in Chinese, and the correct translation into Chinese of the word "geisha" is 艺伎 (traditional Chinese: 藝伎), which does not use it. Some Japanese have expressed offense that people of their own nationality had not gotten the roles. Other Asians defended the casting, including the film's main Japanese star Ken Watanabe who said that "talent is more important than nationality."[17]

In defense of the film, Zhang spoke:

“ A director is only interested in casting someone he believes is appropriate for a role. For instance, my character had to go from age 15 to 35; she had to be able to dance, and she had to be able to act, so he needed someone who could do all that. I also think that regardless of whether someone is Japanese or Chinese or Korean, we all would have had to learn what it is to be a geisha, because almost nobody today knows what that means—not even the Japanese actors on the film.
Geisha was not meant to be a documentary. I remember seeing in the Chinese newspaper a piece that said we had only spent six weeks to learn everything and that that was not respectful toward the culture. It's like saying that if you're playing a mugger, you have to rob a certain number of people. To my mind, what this issue is all about, though, is the intense historical problems between China and Japan. The whole subject is a land mine. Maybe one of the reasons people made such a fuss about Geisha was that they were looking for a way to vent their anger.[18]
”

Film critic Roger Ebert pointed out that the film was made by a Japanese-owned company, and that Gong Li and Zhang Ziyi outgross any Japanese actress even in the Japanese box office.[19]

Chinese responses

The film received some hostile responses in Mainland China, including its banning by the People's Republic of China. Relations between Japan and Mainland China were particularly tense due to two main factors: Japan's Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi made a number of visits to Yasukuni Shrine, which honors all Japan's war dead, including some who were convicted war criminals, which was denounced by China's foreign ministry as honoring them; and China helped to ensure Japan did not receive a seat on the UN Security Council.[20] Writer Hong Ying argued that "Art should be above national politics".[21] Nevertheless, the release of Memoirs of a Geisha into this politically charged situation added to cultural conflict within and between China and Japan.

The film was originally scheduled to be shown in cinemas in the People's Republic of China on February 9, 2006. The Chinese State Administration of Radio, Film, and Television decided to ban the film on February 1, 2006, considering the film as "too sensitive". In doing so, it overturned a November decision to approve the film for screening.[22]

The film is set in Japan during World War II, when the Second Sino-Japanese War was taking place. During this time, Japan captured and forced Chinese women as "comfort women" for their men.[23] Controversy arose in China from an apparent confusion of equating geisha with prostitution, and thus the connection with, and reminder of, comfort women being used in Japan at that time.

Newspaper sources, such as the Shanghai-based Oriental Morning Post and the Shanghai Youth Daily, quoted the fears that the film may be banned by censors; there were concerns that the casting of Chinese actresses as geishas could rouse anti-Japan sentiment and stir up feelings over Japanese wartime actions in China, especially the use of Chinese women as forced sex workers.[24][25]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DhoBuU1Dtc

Oddly there seems to be some saying that anime characters are like white people.

the j-vlogger community produces videos of varying quality. some are too general and few are nuanced, i feel.

yuta is definitely one of the better contributors. but "footnotes" are definitely required.

the reaction to white-washing from japanese people living in japan and being filmed is a predictable one. filming their opinions gives them a sense that this is an "official stance." so they are careful not to give in to the stereotypes that foreigners cause a lot of trouble in their country. they romanticize westerners, so when something controversial or negative is brought up, they first see what they are doing wrong. the kids at the beginning also seem to represent a student who has received a typical japanese education, which does not teach a person to have opinions -- subjective or sometimes objective unfortunately -- that encourage individuality. in fact, japanese societal norms emphasize introspection with less verbal communication. you can read this in the body language of the younger guy on the left (i think he is wearing blue) at the beginning who thinks everything is fine, but yuta slowly gives him more direct, verbal information as the interview develops.

obviously appearances are very important in japan and this includes what you say. there is no way they will trash-talk or be so critical of foreigners on camera, for starters. secondly, those women feel white people look more like anime characters because of the large eyes and pale skin. speak to any japanese, and they will tell you foreigners have big eyes compared to asians. like i said before, i think these anime characters are ideal forms that arose after the second world war.

it's funny listening to them say that as long as the actors are skilled, they should get the role. i think this is so obviously related to the fact that japanese actors are generally pretty bad, and japanese people rarely like japanese actors, and laud western actors a lot. the strange thing is i've met a lot who actually like really bad, cheesy movies and bad actors. i don't understand how they can tell a good english-speaking actor from another, personally, but it is what it is.

and talking about, "it is what it is," i love that one of them actually makes reference to that in the video, because that is such a typical thing for japanese to say: "it can't be helped." しょうがない (shou ga nai).

in the end, those living in japan cannot have a more nuanced view of white-washing and the problem in the us, so their opinion is less harsh. they are not personally affected by it.

this issue really only involves asian-americans, or westerners of asian descent.

I think the well known Japanese actors trying to succeed in English language films are concerned about this issue too. Just like famous Hong Kong actors being used poorly in American films.

I didn't post that video as any kind of authoritative statement on the matter, it's just interesting. I wish those Yuta videos had more people being interviewed for a bit more variety.

thx pierre. i suspected some of the things you mention but don't know how to talk about it

new trailers look pretty bad

shirow and shirow-related projects have been diminishing returns for quite a while.

or is this the trailer for the live-action?

they looked like the old cryptic teasers for playstation

Daisuke Aramaki (Character)
from Ghost in the Shell (1995)
Ghost in the Shell (2017) Played by Takeshi Kitano

Sold.

the live-action with scarlett xxp

reminded me of the total recall remake in terms of look

There’s not much to say about the new one. It’s pretty uninspired. They were obviously struggling to figure out what they wanted to say with this material. The story arc is superficially similar to the first film, with some scenes recreated, but now it’s about the Major trying to discover the circumstances of her creation and who she was before becoming a cyborg. So a much more boringly literal and backwards-looking question of “who she is,” as opposed to the ideas of evolution and transcendence in the original. It also dumps everything having to do with strong AI and emergent sentience. There’s a character who fills the same role as the Puppet Master in the original, but he’s revealed to be a cyborg like the Major, not an AI. They gesture vaguely at the idea of his becoming a super-organism through networking people together, but it’s hardly explored at all.

There’s also a curious plot decision which comes across like a confused attempt at getting around the whitewashing controversy. I don’t know if that was the intent.

i watched some "deconstruction of a scene" or something feature on NYT.com w/ the director and this movie looks like hot garbage

I was kind of shocked to learn that it shares a production designer with The Cook, The Thief, His Wife & Her Lover and Prospero's Books from the AV Club review- I kind of tuned out after the first teaser and its over-literal recreation of scenes from the first movie, but is it at all worth seeing for the visuals alone?

Ghost in the Shell vs. Speed Racer: POO

Don't you fucking talk shit about the Speed Racer movie

Or Speed Racer in general

I didn't pick up on any similarity to the Greenaway films. The general look is kind of a CG Bladerunner without the lived-in quality.

One place they seemed to be having fun is with the makeup and costume design. Lots of people with cybernetic enhancements sticking out of their face. The robot geishas are neat too.

speed racer is one of the greatest movies ever made

WORD

Watching the 1995 GITS..this is one beautiful looking film!

speed racer is one of the greatest movies ever made

― ToddBonzalez (BradNelson), Tuesday, April 4, 2017 10:09 AM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't think i updated this thread when i finally saw this movie last year??? but it was v v good and i prefer it to the first

https://i.imgur.com/hZOdeer.jpg