Taking Sides: Narnia vs Prydain

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Prydain all the way.

― sundar subramanian, Monday, 19 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Slight edge to Narnia, but I love 'em both.

― Phil, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Never read any Narnia books, and have no idea what this Prydain thingy is.

― DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Despite only having one talking animal IIRC Prydain manages to out- twee Narnia. It's a pointless question: opinions formed at that age are near-immutable, the Jesuits had it right.

― Tom, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Earthsea.

― chris, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Narnia sucks so bad , fucking anglican agit-prop shoved down my throat. As transparent as a 2 dollar whores nighty. Fuck i hated Narnia with all that miserable country nostagia. CS LEWIS WANKER !

― anthony, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I loved Narnia but have to agree with Anthony about the agit-prop. Also there was something dodgy about Susan's rejection of that world as she grew into a woman. She writes off years of living and ruling a nation as *childrens' games* because of her impending adulthood (though I think Peter doesn't) - which nobody would do, even if they didn't go back, no-one would disbelieve such vivid memories. My favourite is The Horse And His Boy because it gives Narnia scale - a real sense of size and paints the four kids as real monarchs with a feeling of politics about it. Anna McCaffrey (god bless her) never achieves that sense of scale on Pern, in 15 books or whatever.

― chris, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

it has been proven by science time and again that NARNIA = pisspoor propaganda viz

anthony hates narnia yet = Xtian
ten million other ILErs LOVE narnia yet = atheist

― tashlan/radio free narnia, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Was Prydain the land in which Taren lived (foggy memories bubble up from the swamp)? If so, search "Taren Wanderer", which I found to be one of the most clevah and heartbreaking books evah when I read it (circa: ten years old). The whole idea of a book devoted to a guy realising he was mediocre at everything struck me as marvellous at the time - this was pre-Nick Hornby, of course.

Chris: why would Pern need scale when dragons can go b'twee? I mean, between?

― Tim, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I can't recall what this Prydain place is, but, being raised a good little Anglican, of course I all but memorised the Narnia Chronicles. Even despite the Xian propaganda, it twangs beautiful archetypical epic storytelling principles, yet is still compelling and original. I think my favourite was the Voyage Of The Dawn Treader, the descent into their own imaginations went along nicely with my Grail Quest obsessions of the time.

― kate, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's all rather confusing really.

― Confused Person, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This is a very good question...while I've actually dipped into the Narnia books more over time, I have to think that Prydain lingers with me more, especially the final book, which is all about crushing losses, one after another, though shot through with a sense of where things can go next. Ignore the Disney adaptation, of course. And Tim, you are a wonderfully cruel man, I approve. ;-)

Somebody was mocking McCaffrey? I CURSE YOU. Though I agree the series went on a couple of books too far.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Narnia = clever trap to trick people JUST LIKE ME into spending years fretting about Christianity vs. atheism. I think I am still on the side of Narnia, though.

― Maria, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

never heard of Prydain but it has to win by default. yay we are going to have a nation ruled by self righteous middle class prats, one of whom is a proven traitor, one who is the julian of the group, and lucy, who was a spangle, or perhaps a tool. Narnia makes me upset. And then disinheriting susan because she actually grew up? I disliked that ending even the first time i read it

― Menelaus Darcy, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Also: Sentient Lion = Tres Obvious, but Sentient Pig = Hella cool.

Can I repeat that people *must* read "Taren Wanderer" and "The High King" stat.

― Tim, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

two years pass...

the narnia books are just plain old boring and stupid. If you want to read a REAL fantasy book, than read the Prydain Chronicles

― Susan hoffman, Thursday, 20 May 2004 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

We've been done told. I was thinking about the Prydain books the other day, actually.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Even as a kid I hated the Narnia books. They were so moralistic and so...English.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I've been determined to reread the Prydain books lately. Good stuff.

http://retrograde.trustno1.org/pics/BC1.GIF

― adam (adam), Thursday, 20 May 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm sort of ambivalent about narnia: much as i love the books, there's something slightly smug and xenophobic about em (how many times do we need to be told that someone not-quite-like-us is just simply DREADFUL and NASTY and, uh, MODERN). on the other hand, they're also more interesting to me than pretty much any other fantasy books i've ever come across.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 May 2004 03:09 (twenty-two years ago)

lyra's oxford.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Friday, 21 May 2004 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

what about Xanth, or the Territories?

― Kingfish Disraeli (Kingfish), Friday, 21 May 2004 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I still love the Narnia books. Every couple of years I'll read the whole series just to refresh my memory. I will even admit to having checked inside of a few wardrobes as a child - you know, just in case.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Friday, 21 May 2004 03:48 (twenty-two years ago)

http://home.hetnet.nl/~motinni/guest/YOF-02.jpg

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 21 May 2004 03:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Taran is such a whiner in the Book of Three, though. He doesn't say or murmur or state things; everything is "cried"

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Friday, 21 May 2004 03:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I'd forgotten all about Prydain. I think it wins. Narnia's too frustrating, and I remember Prydain being a more developed world, in terms of mythology and whatnot. I could be wrong, however, as it's many years since I even thought about it.

I'm going to the library on Tuesday to find these books. Book of Three, Black Cauldron, Castle of Llyr, um, some long dullish one that I remember fondly somehow, and a scary one that I liked but only read once. WOW I really miss these books right now.

― derrick (derrick), Friday, 21 May 2004 04:51 (twenty-two years ago)

the prydain chronicles fucking RULED THE SHIT OUT OF NARNIA.

so great, seriously.

but what about THE WHEEL OF TIME?

― Ian Johnson (orion), Friday, 21 May 2004 05:12 (twenty-two years ago)

When I was young, my favourite children's books were the Narnia books, closely followed by Watership Down. In search of more talking animals, I then read Animal Farm, and I think that pretty much finished me off for children's books.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 21 May 2004 08:16 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

Revive, once again I find myself thinking about Prydain a bit and will probably have to reread at long last, even as the first Narnia movie approaches. Personally I'd love to see what could be done with a live action Prydain cycle now.

Upthread I said:

I have to think that Prydain lingers with me more, especially the final book, which is all about crushing losses, one after another, though shot through with a sense of where things can go next.

And while a reread will have to confirm that, I'm pretty sure I'm right -- there's no sense of full redemption or eschatalogy in Prydain, though there are mystic fields beyond those we know (located in the West, of course), and death is vividly final. Other fantasy series might get into this more, but -- especially for an ostensibly 'juvenile' audience -- I think Prydain beats out almost anything for dealing with death, especially in what at times seems to be a hopeless, doomed-to-failure struggle, the more so because so many characters don't make it to the end.

So yeah, like Ian said, they ruled the shit out of Narnia, and I still like Narnia at various points. But Lloyd A. ended up hitting the higher marks in the end -- to just pick out one instance, the moment where Fflewddur Fflam has to sacrifice the wood of his harp for a fire to ensure he and his friends do not freeze to death, and what then happens as a result, combines everything from the blunt realities of survival to honest-to-god magic and an astonishing sense of how to portray moments of emotional Armageddon by means of externally described action instead of internal monologue or dialogue. Quite something.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 04:48 (twenty years ago)

And while I'm thinking of it, a pretty cool interview with Alexander via Scholastic.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 04:54 (twenty years ago)

I remember more about the Narnia books, but I actually read all the Alexander books which is more than I can say for Lewis. Never got past A Boy and His Horse, or whatever that one's called. So I think I probably liked Alexander more when I was 10, and who am I to second-guess 10-year-old me?

Earthsea over either, though.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 04:55 (twenty years ago)

Earthsea really is striking, of all of Ursula K.'s works that may be the one which outlasts them all in the end -- pretty easily the best example offhand of a writer among the first wave of Tolkien readers who instead of creating a canned epic fantasy in response did something that merits comparisons while standing specifically apart, and more strongly in certain areas. She's easily an unspoken influence on someone like Guy Gavriel Kay, among others, and I really should get around to reading the more recent books she's done -- I have a feeling they'd be great.

But she's not the topic under the discussion. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 04:59 (twenty years ago)

(Though what's interesting is how The Rowling Cultus pretty clearly divides history between Then and Now like LOTR did, but unlike LOTR does so much more clearly and specifically with a younger audience given LOTR's pitch towards a (sometimes only slightly) older readership. I'm not saying Alexander, LeGuin et al will be more lost to history as a result the same way that Dunsany and Eddison have been post-Tolkien, but I have a feeling they'll now be secondary encounters for a lot of younger readers after Rowling -- not necessarily bad or good either way, just the way it looks for now.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:03 (twenty years ago)

Also I have just remembered I need to finally own some McKillip books.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:04 (twenty years ago)

I loved the Prydain books as a kid. Didn't read Narnia -- I think my Jewish parents thought they were too Christian for our household.

But has anyone read any of the Alexander books recently? Do they hold up?

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:08 (twenty years ago)

Actually, I didn't just love them. Book of Three was my very first "real" book. In fact, reading the excerpt on amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0440407028/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-3929420-4451343#reader-page) brought back a vivid memory of sitting in the back of my parents' station wagon with the new book, getting a couple of pages into it and asking my mom "What does 'parrying and thrusting' mean?" She told me, "It has to do with fencing," and I was now completely bewildered as to why Taran wanted to learn to make fences.

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:15 (twenty years ago)

Taran's very Luke Skywalker-esque, isn't he?

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:21 (twenty years ago)

Ned, I think the Prydain cycle is safe from the ravages of time considering that one of the books is a Newbery winner, and one a Newbery Honor.

Yeah, I don't know. My heart is with Narnia but the story plays a very dirty trick on poor Susan. Her "growing up" is specifically sexual, she discovers lipstick and boys and begins to live up to societal expectations for her gender and as a reward she is SCREWED and barred from imaginative life. Alexander is poetic and stark and admirable and Ned is right about the part with the harp, but I think at a certain age I needed the Narnian/Christian reassurance that all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, forgot to say about Susan, obviously her "corruption" and loss of innocence is allegory for the Fall, but why then the question is: why should only a woman bear that stigma?, which is where I get all "FUCK YOU" because it's a terribly loaded question, theologically & historically speaking.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

The Prydian books are AWESOME-O. I need to reread them soonish.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

I think at a certain age I needed the Narnian/Christian reassurance that all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.

EMBRACE THY INNER GOTH, ALL IS DOOM. Of course Prydain ISN'T all doom in the end, but it's all about conditional rewards, how you don't have everything (and never can) but out of struggle you can have something.

xpost -- Dan and I agreeing on something? What a thought! ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

i loved them both as a kid.

anyone ever read the first two lives of lukas-kasha?

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

dark is rising.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

I really need to actually try Cooper again one of these days.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

(And hi there Remy!)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

I definitely need to re-read the Prydain books. I was saying on ILB how I never realised Alexander was American, but maybe as a child, and especially a child reading fantasy, you aren't really attuned to that? I'm reading The Fantasical Adventures of the Invisible Boy on and off - it's sweet.

I think the Narnia universe is devastatingly well-imagined, but re-reading them last year the actual nuts and bolts writing seemed a bit flat and sloppy.

Off topic, but I'm reading Elidor just now and I keep being impressed at how little Garner talks down - there's words and ideas in there that I have trouble with NOW. It's great. Completely terrifying as well, with so much left unsaid. Makes the magic in Harry Potter look kind of tame.

Love Cooper too - my fat Dark is Rising omnibus fell apart never to be salvaged :(

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i just read elidor and on one hand i was impressed with it in a general sense, but dissappointed that there was so little there. it's such a short book and everything could have been explored so much more deeply. It was just too short to feel immersed in.

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

I think Alexander's sensibility is very British, Arch. And you'd SWARE he was a old Welsh shepherd, he's so slight and craggy and weather-beaten looking.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

Completely terrifying as well

Yeah, if there's one thing Garner does well (and he does lots of things well), it's the feeling of the creeping horrors...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:15 (twenty years ago)

And claustrophobia! In caves! Urnnggh.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 90 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I've been wanted to revisit these for a few years now - need to get around to it.

― mitya, Sunday, 20 May 2007 05:00 (nineteen years ago)

eleven months pass...

Urgent and key to note: "Taran Wanderer" still best book ever. Well, close.

― Tim F, Friday, 16 May 2008 07:44 (eighteen years ago)

So why can't they make a film series out of that now, I wonder.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 16 May 2008 12:41 (eighteen years ago)

They made a cartoon of The Black Cauldron (prob mentioned upthread, but I'm super lazy)

― Oilyrags, Friday, 16 May 2008 20:23 (eighteen years ago)

two years pass...

The Prydain books were second only to Tolkien for me as a kid; I might even dare to place them above ol' J.R.R. these days. Love the characters to pieces.

Narnia sucks.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 00:55 (fifteen years ago)

^^^ OTMFM

― dayo, Thursday, 14 October 2010 00:56 (fifteen years ago)

i will read these. last time i tried (black cauldron, i think) they were a little too dense for me. i think i was 7 tbf

― cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Thursday, 14 October 2010 00:57 (fifteen years ago)

The cover painting for The Book of Three sealed the deal for me as a kid:

http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us/Bethune_MS/BOM3/Cvr07_Jan03.jpg

The Horned King was cooler than the Nazgul. They didn't have faces, and his was a skull with horns!

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:00 (fifteen years ago)

disappointingly my library system seems only to have books 1 and 5. might try and buy this today, you've put the yearning in me

― dayo, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:07 (fifteen years ago)

I bought a hardcover omnibus from the Sci-Fi Book Club in high school and I've read it many times in the 20-odd years I've had it. Should be in everyone's collection.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:11 (fifteen years ago)

Ha, I have that very same omnibus in my bookcase now...

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:19 (fifteen years ago)

SFBC used to be great for that sort of thing. Sadly, it seems much less so these days.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:24 (fifteen years ago)

There was a character like Gollum, only friendly. He was my favourite.

― A brownish area with points (chap), Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:26 (fifteen years ago)

Gurgi!

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:27 (fifteen years ago)

Crunchings and munchings!

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 01:28 (fifteen years ago)

My nephews, ages 8 and 10, just started The Book Of Three. In fact, they are reading my old copy!

I need to reread all of them but I think I prefer them to Narnia (which I also like, esp Magician's Nephew and Horse & His Boy and Dawn Treader).

― sleeve, Thursday, 14 October 2010 02:44 (fifteen years ago)

Yeah I like Prydain better too. Although Narnia are good too (strangely the first and last books are my least favorite).

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, 14 October 2010 02:46 (fifteen years ago)

a fflam is valiant!

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:03 AM (5 years ago)

― mookieproof, Thursday, 14 October 2010 04:01 (fifteen years ago)

I talked my wife into naming our next cat Llayn.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 04:04 (fifteen years ago)

Or Llyan, even.

― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 14 October 2010 04:04 (fifteen years ago)

I really need to read these again some time.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 14 October 2010 04:25 (fifteen years ago)

What did Tom mean about the Jesuits up there?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 14 October 2010 04:26 (fifteen years ago)

wonder if my prydain omnibus survived the flooding at my mom's old house a few months back..

― not everything is a campfire (ian), Thursday, 14 October 2010 05:03 (fifteen years ago)

Crunchings and munchings!

Gurgi rhymes frequently occur to me but I assume they'll only be funny in my head so I usu don't share. Sad, really.

― I've got ten bucks. SURPRISE ME. (Laurel), Thursday, 14 October 2010 13:51 (fifteen years ago)

three years pass...

the wisdom of the pig-keeper

― mookieproof, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 23:37 (eleven years ago)

loved Prydain, never really gave a fuck about Narnia (altho as an adult I have come around to CS Lewis, at least as far as his sci-fi trilogy goes)

had these versions, which were alternately terrifying/fascinating:
http://www.artscatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tcop-1024x302.jpg

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 23:43 (eleven years ago)

i had these for the first two, which were pretty badass imo

http://www.longstoryshortpier.com/images/752.jpg http://heissufficient.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/the-black-cauldron.jpg

― mookieproof, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 23:49 (eleven years ago)

'i'm ambidextrous!' taran cried

― mookieproof, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 23:51 (eleven years ago)

we should poll these; i'd've said castle of llyr when i was of age, because it had ocean, but thinking back it is prob taran wanderer: neat diminished scale, unnerving yet eerily pitiable villain, father feelings. i like that the epic protagonist has to drop out for a book--work a summer, get disappointed, spend some time as a frog iirc unless that was fflewddur--before taking a run at the climax. altho v little eilonwy, right? that was the other thing abt castle of llyr. eilonwy on the ocean.

― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 25 September 2014 00:49 (eleven years ago)

eilonwy feelings, apparently

― mookieproof, Thursday, 25 September 2014 00:56 (eleven years ago)

escaping spiral castle w eilonwy is the ur-adventure

― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 25 September 2014 01:04 (eleven years ago)

I read all of these out loud to my wife last year as bedtime stories and it was awesome to revisit everything

― sleeve, Thursday, 25 September 2014 14:13 (eleven years ago)

Eilonwy escaping from Spiral Castle is up there with Aerin's walking up the infinite stairs to confront Agsded and then falling back down in The Hero and the Crown. Best.

― Orson Wellies (in orbit), Thursday, 25 September 2014 14:18 (eleven years ago)