Israeli refusniks - classic or dud

the real duds are the israeli chickenhawks of the orthodox right, that get military exemptions even though they vote in the pro-settler politicians and are therefore a main reason for the war. it's very easy to get an exemption for religious reasons, but almost impossible to get one based on political beliefs.

Am I right in thinking you can bunk out of the Israeli army by going to a religious school? As some of these religious schools are run by ultra-rightists you have, as you say, the odd spectacle of people bunking out of the Occupation to go learn from some pro-Occupation idealogue.

That's true. Maybe what I meant was that even the most left-wing, anti-occupation Israeli politicians would never endorse refusenikism. Service is seen as a mandatory contribution to the defnse of a country under attack. And yes, there are some serious problems with that viewpoint.

As for the religious schools, it's sad but true. I saw an argument in a shared taxicab where some religious lady was calling secular people sick, and another guy got mad and said his friends died for her safety. The special and ridiculously unfair rights of the Jewish right are why the anti-religion party Shinui is so popular.

Is there a Palestinian equivalent to this?

I just listened to this. It's a "this american life" piece about a Palestinian journalist who translates Israeli broadcasts into Arabic. Starts 19:00 into the stream.

As for the refuseniks - classic, of course. Another step in the pacifist tradition, showing that peace movements can and will react to wars wherever we find them.

i.e. Israel to blame 100%. I'm glad you're not at the negotiating table.

Here's another question: Would anyone have guessed that it would be Ariel Sharon who went against much of his own party to pull out of Gaza? I mean I know it's buried in a lot of other shit and circumstance, but if this actually happens it could be pretty huge moment down the road. Could you ever see someone like Bush trying a move in which he cut off a large part of his supporters?

I think there could be some worth in saying that it doesn't matter who the palestinians support, at least morally or theoretically, because it certainly wouldn't matter to Hamas. Of course, if support for them became so low, it would become increasingly difficult to function. And there could also be a case for saying that citizens in a democracy carry more moral responsibility for the actions of their governments than those amongst other forms of government - of course thins is mostly irrelevant, and not the basis for assigning 'moral worth' to any violence, for obvious reasons.

I do think that Arafat and Hamas have popular support, but that doesn't mean they are representative. They are percieved to be the group who are 'doing something' about Israel, and many will support them because there is no-one else. Like the lone gunman in a wild west town, they are viewed by the people as a means to an end - but no-one wants the government that one lone gunman brings. (sorry, that's an odd simile, don't know where it came from). It's also a similar feeling to that of people all over the world when they support a war their government fights, but know they wouldn't have done the same thing themselves. Anyway, whatever.

That's a hard line to draw. And a lot of outside support certainly treats Arafat like a legitimate leader.

It would have been nice if say Bush didn't spend the last 4 years hoping an alternative magically appeared. Equally so for the Palestinians or any of the Arab countries did something pro-active.

As to the popularity of Arafat and Hamas... my impression is that Arafat is not that popular, for a variey of reasons: corruption, authoritarian rule, general rubbishness. But he's more popular than any Uncle Tom leader the USA & Israelis could impose on the Palestinians, which is why Abbas failed as Palestinian prime minister. I suspect Arafat would win any free election held for leadership of the PA, as rejecting him would be seen as capitulation to the occupiers.

Hamas' popularity is hard to gauge, but again my impression is that they are the main opposition to Arafat's Fatah party.

Wasn't there some talk of having PA elections last year, but these were effectively blocked by Israel as they didn't want Arafat re-elected and Hamas' actual support being noted?

The Gaza plan - this is an interesting development that perhaps requires its own thread.

Getting back to the Israeli refusniks - does anyone here not like them?

I also dislike the ones who get out of service by going to yeshiva. I support the ones who refuse to serve in the occupied territories. But I know that many Israelis dislike them not because they want to be occupying Palestinian land, but because their children have to defend the settlements despite disagreeing with their existence. This is also why moderate Israelis dislike settlers and their supporters – these people demand the occupation but resist being conscripted by going to yeshiva.

If I were conscripted to the Israeli military I'd try to be in a support role and avoid going to the settlements, but I think everyone tries this.

xp beanz otm

one of the refuseniks was an extremely nice and smart kid but way too opinionated and controversial to be effective. he said israel had no right to exist etc.

but all the other ones have been eminently sensible and coolheaded and explained their momentous decision with a great deal of courage and clarity.

The Israeli Labor Party - I don't really see the point of it. it's kind of got this rep as being the friendly, peace-loving israeli party, when in fact its leaders were the architects of the settlement policy and none of them have ever done anything to reign in the settlers. Oddly, I think it is only Likud-led governments that have ever dismantled settlements.

Historically, the labor party has made some serious moral and tactical mistakes. But in the last decade or so, it's usually been in the right. There are exceptions (I have a pet theory that if Barak used rubber bullets instead of live ones to quell the demonstrations after Sharon's Temple Mount visit, the second intifada would have never happened). But on the whole, it's tired hard to create peace, and its efforts were stymied by a parade of Israeli and Palestinian extremists.

and:

http://www.trigonalmayhem.com/arafat-paint-saddam.jpg

doesn't everyone think this?

meanwhile, today proves a good day to throw Mordechai Vanunu back in jail: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4002227.stm

thanks for being a shining beacon of freedom and democracy in the middle east, israel!

oh well, things are headed that way here too.

now THAT, rather
I cannot type today