Is it submissive to want to be taken?

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Springing from the much loved So, right, them, who do you fancy? thread, if a woman thinks (or says) "Take me!", is that submissive. I mean if you shout out "Fuck me!" then it's certainly assertive, but can you not be both at once? Have modern gender politics made us afraid to admit to the basis of typical male-female sexual relations? Do women like to feel like a man is in control and 'doing stuff to them' in bed? And is penetration fundamentally a dominating act?

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

well, i think both sexes want to be 'taken' occasionally, it's just how the mood takes you. of course penetration isn't an inherently dominating act - for every Andrea Dworkin there's a bloke who's afraid that a vagina will castrate him.

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well if the vagina wasn't going to castrate me, why do they have teeth. Eh? Answer me that...

― Pete, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

all the better to EAT you with... er praps not

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I've never believed that 'vagina dentata' is anything other than a crock of shit. Who really thinks that? 'Mouth dentata' - now that's a different matter. Just ask Pete!

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

try J K Huysmans, nick.

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, he got there first.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think it depends entirely on the people involved and the context. E.g. if a very unassertive (sexually) girl swoons around and breathily sighs 'oh take me Dave' that is fairly submissive but at the same time at least she's saying what she wants. If on the other hand you are straddling someone you have handcuffed to your bed and shout 'take me now you stallion' that is not submissive. Is it?

I am quite confused now.

― Emma, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Meaning Pete, not Huysmans. Huysmans is French and thus has barmy theories about sex. He can be discounted.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the male fear of castration can be found in many places in lit, not all of it French, and doesn't necessarily have to involve vaginas with teeth. happy, nick?

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Entire purpose of this thread = to confuse Emma. I have won!

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(take my wife, please!)

― kill me, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

can be found in many places in lit

But what about real life? Is there anyone here willing to admit to this fear? It just doesn't have any psychological resonance for me at all.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

well, thinking that penetration = domination doesn't for me either!

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Fair enough. I was only asking.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It is really not very difficult to confuse me on Mondays when I am still in recovery and not entirely able to deal with solid foods. However I have decided that if I cornered an innocent bloke in a social scenario e.g. the pub, a party, a club, and said 'take me' in any sort of voice, he would probably be very scared.

― Emma, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh yes and what does 'Take on me' as sung by Norwegian hunks Aha mean? Is that a sex thing? Or what?

― Emma, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What about when the Wedding Present say it?

Answer - depends on context. And the assumption of dom/sub sex roles has generally little to do with anything else one gets up to.

― Tom, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Nick, i really wasn't trying to have a go! i just think that the 'typical' male-female relations of which you speak probably don't exist - everyone, men and women, likes different things at different times. i suppose that if you yell 'take me!' then yes, there is a sense of throwing yourself at that person and wanting them to dominate you, but that don't mean you want it all the time (missus!). and the penetration = domination thing is just silly, unless you're talking about rape which is another, altogether more serious, topic.

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes, probably. Maybe that's the vagina dentata thing. It's not an actual fear of castration. It's just the way psychoanalytical theory likes to formulate fear of the sexual demands of women. But by insisting on such concrete 'bases' of fears and neuroses, the whole things renders itself open to ridicule.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My last post was a response to Emma's. My this thread is moving fast.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

psychoanalytical theory = 99% horseshit

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

There was the one time I heard "Take me now, you savage Mouseketeer," but I wasn't involved in the proceedings.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Inevitably it has to involve both dominance and submissiveness. Take me = a request, the requestor is exhibiting self-determination by stating what they want, whereas the act of being taken involves an element of submissiveness.

As far as gender is concerned, I think men and women are both controller and controlled in equal measure. Part of sex is fulfilling your own desire, but you're also submitting to the other person's desire. Either that or I'm doing it all wrong.

― Trevor, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sorry Trevor but you are doing it wrong. Learn to do it right.

If I stomped into the front room when Imaginary Boyf was watching football and shouted 'Take me to the shops you good for nothing waster' then I think that would be quite assertive. Or maybe aggressive. I must learn to distinguish between those two.

― Emma, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Will there be homework tonight miss?

― Trevor, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

When a man puts his willy in a vagina, surely the vagina is "taking" the willy into its warm meanderings? Or perhaps it could be an abbreviation of "take me to heaven and back, baby"?

Nah. It's a submissive thing in root at least - "take me, I'm yours" = I am so stimulated/enamoured/insecure that I want you to treat me as an object to conquer, whereby I both give you physical pleaure and masturbate your ego - fortunately, in the process I am able to lie back and have gorgeously dirty things done to me with little effort on my part.

I reckon. I'm probably more a taker than a takee, but as with everything, variety is urgent+key...

(what is it with people not wanting to talk about their sex lives on ILE? I don't want to talk about anything else)

― Mark C, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

warm meanderings

Mr C is a poet!

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

surely the vagina is "taking" the willy into its warm meanderings

I've heard of pillow talk and all...

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh Nick, I was jesting of course. I would never exclaim such a phrase sans being tongue in cheek. Regarding feminism, sex and control, I have to agree with Germaine Greer on most things. But she seems to be a bit too influenced by the English culture, in my opinion.

― helen fordsdale, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I would never exclaim such a phrase sans being tongue in cheek

But of course. It's rude to jump straight to fourth base. Ho ho ho ho.

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

hahahaha I should be snotty and give a Greer-ian slap on yer wrist... but I can't. Laughing too hard.

― helen fordsdale, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Because perhaps some of the people we do it with are reading this very same thread, Mark!!!! Does V. read ILE, btw?! You just like talking dirty!

Really though, things DO depend in the bedroom, I can vary between wanting to control someone and then wanting them to control me but then there's times when you are both doing things to each other which is super squifffy too. I was with Dworkin as a yoof in my rather hardcore feminist way but YOU SEE I had never um, you know, at the time, I am saying too much here!!! But then again, I want threads to get MUCKY because I have a dirty mind and want to gossip heh heh.

― Sarah, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"some of the people we do it with" = yay polyamory!!

― mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i haf read of, but never confirmed, a theory of dworkin's that penetration w.non-erect membah = NOT oppressive to women, and detailed study of possible possibility of ejacul8ion in such a non-virile state hurrah

it may be mean rubbish as it was in a book by alexander cockburn, who found it merely komikal

― mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

by never confirmed I in fact mean never read dworkin, but the other meaning = true also, unsurprisingly

― mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

He found the time to laugh at something? Astounding, I thought he was always railing against the State. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

AHEM! Let's leave the tigXoR hat out of this for now eh, Mark?

― Sarah, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Much as I am enjoying the Dworkinesque turn this thread has taken, I would just like to point out that the question does not presume domination (in a sexual setting) to be an intrinsically bad thing. Does submission=oppression. Maybe to Dworkin it does, but I'd be interested to know if anyone would admit to the submission/domination/'woman there to be taken' thing as being the basic undercurrent of their sexuality. Why in male gay couples are these roles usually adopted? Or is that a myth?

― Nick, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

huh i want to be taken down the pub.

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(i know nick but i felt it necessary to share la dworkin's vision)

― mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If you wait till tomorrow Miss Grocott this can be done PLUS extra Afro Ken goods! Mmmm booze and bed for me tonight.

― Sarah, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Being French, I have odd ideas on sex. I don't know if I should post any opinion...

― Laetitia, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

aawww Sarah is wuvvly. bouze and bed and no penetration for me tonight!

― katie, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is there something wrong with the boyfriend, Ms G?

― RickyT, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Laetitia - odd ideas about sex are exactly what we (well, me and Sarah) want to hear about! Go for it!

― Mark C, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'd say that in most relationships it happens to be a 'dominator' or 'dominatrix', and a mmmm, 'slave','taker', 'rogue pupil' (for the UK upper classes only), though they are not linked definitely, not to patriarchal ecomonical/social structures still prevailing.

PS Dominatrix has made me think of 'Gladiatrix'. That sounds very odd, was there any Gladiatrix in ancient Rome?

― Laetitia, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Apparently yes, Laetitia, there's at least one piece of sculpture found that commemmorates two female fighters, somewhere in Turkey I believe.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Does being taken up the arsenal make you a submissive gooner?

― Trevor, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is this going to prompt a 'Women on Top' thread? Anyone? Or : do you enjoy giving or receiving? (gay men only) Without stepping into 'Chasing Amy''s territory:'Is a good fist as good as it gets?'

― Laetitia, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is this going to prompt a 'Women on Top' thread? Anyone?

All I have to say is -- it rules.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I. Yes.

i. yes you can be both at once.
ii. define "typical".
iii. many of them do.
iv. yes, but domination can be good!

The fact that "take me" is a command just makes it good communication. (bad communication alternative: "do you want to take me?" haha)

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Taking Sides: Human Resource's "Dominator" vs Dominatrix's "The Dominatrix Sleeps Tonight"

― Ian, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is it OK to use submisiveness as a cover for laziness?

― maryann, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If you're SAYING "take me" instead of just being taken, it's not oppression, because you're asking and getting your requests granted, even though it may involve submission. All that stuff about gender expectations conditioning the woman to want to be submissive irritates me. Take your own responsibility. No blaming society.

― Maria, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

did they not dig up a kosher gladiatrix on channel 4 on one of theose endless docs in which a cute lady in a white coat puts plasticine on a skull (rowr)?

― mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

my band has a chorus that goes "take me/take me now/take me now or LEAVE!"

when i wrote that, i wasn't thinking of being anyones love slave, obviously. i was thinking of wanting to screw and be screwed at the same time. i know that to "be taken" implies passivity in a grammatical sense, but in reality, does it actually mean being passive anymore? did it ever? maybe it does for some people. i dunno

― di, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"You can pin and mount me, like a butterfly..."

Why is there a Smiths lyric for EVERYTHING?!?! Pick a subject, there is always a Smiths lyric for it, be it kinky sex or bloody gardening.

― kate, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ironically, he lifted this line from Molly Haskell's 'From Reverence To Rape' (and used it for his own sordid romantic ends)

― Nick, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Damn. There's always someone, somewhere with a big nose, who knows, who trips you up and laughs when you fall.

(though I've seen Nick D's nose, and it's not that big.)

― kate, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes, it's hardly Roman.

― Nick, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i like being fucked, but no-one is dominating me - my ass have all the muscles, i'm dominating their cock.

― geoff, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I just say "take on me" instead of "take me", and then the a-ha reference has the strange effect of making the object of my desire run away. Most curious.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Take on me Take me on I'll be gone."

Now do you see?

― Trevor, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I have now decided that I would like someone to come along and Take Me away from all this. However I am in the process of renewing my passport so if they could just let me do that first.

― Emma, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm with Bizarre Inc. on this one.

― Trevor, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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