Cloning: dud, or really interesting way to create a super-stud?

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Sorry I just like rhyming things. (Is an apology a better way to start a thread than "I don't give a shit" ? ) Hopefully no one is angry due to really bad rhyme, however...(it's a crime, ok shhh i'll srop)

AS YOU ALL probably know, it's starting to happen, yet with the (soon to be erased?) distinction: human EMBRYOS have been cloned for some time now, through cells, it was reported yesterday. But not human beings themselves, i.e. through eggs and all. For the 'official' gov't. response in US, and Vatican's response, click here. Oh wait, Iforgot I'm html-link-illiterate.

Copy and paste this: http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=0111262251471726

For a news blip, read on:

BOSTON (Nov. 26) - A company's claim that it is first to clone a human embryo has drawn opposition from the White House, the Vatican and other abortion foes who see it as a step toward cloning human beings.

Researchers at Advanced Cell Technology in Worcester say they hope to develop genetically compatible replacement cells for patients with a range of illnesses - not human clones.

''This work sets the stage for human therapeutic cloning as a potentially limitless source of immune-compatible cells for tissue engineering and transplantation medicine,'' said Dr. Robert P. Lanza, one of the company's researchers.

..cont:

Advanced Cell Technology announced its findings Sunday online in the journal e-biomed: The Journal of Regenerative Medicine. The research was also described online in Scientific American.

Glenn McGee, a critic of the company who once sat on its ethics board,said its announcement was premature and would serve only to encourage opposition to cloning. McGee, a University of Pennsylvania bioethicist, called the announcement ''nothing but hype.''

He said the company's report lacks any significant details, including what cells company scientists actually grew from the cloned embryo.

''They are doing science by press release,'' he said.

...cont:

Other researchers also have plunged into cloning. Some aim at reproductive cloning to produce a new person, but most hope to carry out therapeutic cloning to yield stem cells for treating spinal cord injuries, heart disease, cancer and other ailments.

A second company quickly claimed in unpublished research Sunday it had also cloned human embryos. That company, Clonaid, hopes eventually to clone human beings. ''I'm very pleased that I'm not alone,'' Director Brigitte Boisselier said. ''We're doing embryos every day.''

She refused to give details of the work. The company says it keeps its laboratory location secret for security reasons.

Many scientists say cloning of cows, sheep and other animals has produced some mysterious defects. They say the science is too weak to justify cloning a person, but they hold strong hope for cloning to produce replacement cells.

Vic, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think the um, most intriguing part was Brigitte so nonchalantly gushing "oh! we're doing embryo's every day!!" How nice is it for blessed Brigitte not to feel freaky or different or like an EVILMADSCIENTIST. Whew.

Vic, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Why do universities insist on giving "bioethicists" jobs?

Kris, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Because if they didnt mengles and frankensteins would do things out of base curiosity . Instead of stepping back and consdering what the fuck they are doing , they just go ahead . Wheee Lets Make it an ADventure. Scary Shit.

anthonyeaston, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

base curiosity is what keeps us human

i REALLY REALLY can't get worked up abt cloning cuz
i. it won't work
ii. if it does, the losers won't be ordinary us but weird them
iii. what was wrong with mengele wasn't the science it was his JOB AT A CONCENTRATION CAMP (no spooky frankenstein shit there, just nazis with guns, hullo).
iv. it really really won't work: it's four parts wishful thinking to one part bad genetics

mark s, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ban identical twins NOW!!

Alan Trewartha, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But Mengles instincts were eugenic. the Eugenic movement was the horror that is being revived here. Better Breeding Thru chemsitry and selective abortion .

anthony, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Actually I have a serious question. I hear a lot of claims that a large proportion of the population would like to be able to clone themselves. I just can't believe this, but let me ask: clone ILE?

Do you want a clone of yourself? Why?

Alan Trewartha, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

you seem to be too assured in your conviction that is just won't work. maybe not in our short lifetimes, but later? if they can do sheep so byootifully, why not humans? this whole thread is reminding me of that Goldfrapp cd now

Vic, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I had a very long argument about this last night, and my view on this is not a million miles away from my view on GM food (cf FRANKENSTEIN FOODS). Issue one is the science. Can we do it? Like Mark I am pretty unsure that in the short term we could viably mass produce clones. Sure in the odd one off situation, but we are still creating a human life - which will then be subject to the same rules as all human life created (vis a vis test tube babies - we still do not have a way of giving birth outside the womb). The child will be unusual, and coming to terms with its identity as a clone of an existing person would probably lead to a very interesting contribution to the nature/nurture argument. But in the end why are we doing it?

With regards to cloning for organ harvesting, or other medical research - I think there are actually laws in place which again would cover this (ie laws of consent on transplants).

I think the Eugenics argument is the most interesting one, and I haven't completely got a tap on, but designer babies is certainly not just a cloning issue - its much more in the realm of DNA research. Is the eradication of genetic diseases though a million miles away from the manipulation of social factors which has helped eradicate disease by ensuring that more people have access to clean water, food and heating. Isn't that meddling in a similar way? I find it vaguely patronising when people suggest that people dying in pain & agony may have contributed more than if they had lived a health life (the argument used last night). It is possible, but if you gave them the choice...

In the end the general public need to be educated about the principles involved and not rushed into making knee jerk sound bites for a media who thrive on controversy that often they whip up.

Pete, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

who cares if it works! the actual production of genetically identical beings is NOT an issue, morally, technically, financially -- in ANY way. it's a complete blind-alley. it's the methods involved and the motivation that have to be questioned.

Alan Trewartha, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

A clone of myself? I'd strangle him with his own hair, I suspect.

I'm with Mark and Pete on this in a lot of ways. Right now all I'm thinking is that Lucas is chortling away about all the free advertising.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

A clone of myself? I'd strangle him with his own hair

Surely Dan's hair is too short for you to strangle him with it?

RickyT, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

they have cloned a sheep = er how do we KNOW? clone of a sheep = MORE identical to other sheep than ordinary sheep?

Experiment will be massively unsuccessful SOCIALLY ages before quasi-"industrial" (let alone invountary) stages: it is being embraced because it is claimed it will produce SUPERHUMANS; but the first generation of engineered posh-kid monumental fuck-ups — unable to deal with a. pressure of perfection or b. eidence of sublimated hatred of parents towards them in their "natural" state — will induce a MASSIVE CHILL in the industry.

Plus as i said it depends on a v.silly and self-defeating version of genetics. (eg since neither intelligence nor homosexuality are genetically determined in any intelligible sense, attempts to fast-track one and suppress the other will simply and endlessly FAIL…)

Mengele could ONLY FLOURISH in a fascist society, Anthony. Trend in medical politics is massively towards MORE INTERFERENCE in scientific process by ordinary punters than vice versa.

mark s, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Surely Dan's hair is too short for you to strangle him with it?

Hm...he could try for the Treach out of Naughty by Nature look.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Genetic manipulation = nice to have handy. Uses ppl put it to = hmmm... And so it is with all technology. Playing god = kewl, but only a benevolent one.

Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mark is exactly right about the sheep. Who the hell knows from the behavior of sheep? Mengele and human cloning are not the same thing; no-one's getting exterminated here. People have been selectively breeding (i.e. practicing eugenics) forever -- it's called natural selection; cloning just makes it easier for very rich, impotent losers. I don't think anyone should have children but I'm not in favor of having the practice outlawed. Finally, if these scientists actually did anything significant, they wouldn't be publishing their results in obscure e-journals and Scientific American.

Kris, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I hate to be the one to say this but the scientists are I think pushing their luck. Power is a terrible thing in the wrong hands and this was done as it was not known by anyone and I think it is a gross abuse of power. Thes people are sooo smart, BUT they aren't too bright! They are trying to play God. I think it very wrong to be doing this and I don't think I'm the only one who does either.! Gale

Gale Deslongchamps, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What about all of the orfans around the world????? They all could use GOOD parents. There is no excuse for cloning except the power it gives man! This is my opinion. Gale

Gale Deslongchamps, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But Mark, we may not now be able to clone human but with that amount of money behind it and a solid group of people working on the problem it wont be long before we can. Its evolving faster then AI (sadly) and it begs the question just cause we can should we, which I know I cant answer nor will I attempt to.

Mr Noodles, Tuesday, 27 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)


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