Independent Woman

I think it's celebrating women making money for themselves primarily - the not being bought stuff is more of a side issue.

The positive things line is ghastly on paper but works as a lyric because it fits with the steely dogmatism of the song.

smart talented gorgeous women i would rather scrape my face off with a torn coke can than date #26 = beyoncé knowles

(i may well be the biggest DC fan on the board, btw: it's so not abt the midriffs)

I don't like that line about 50/50 in relationships.It should be like that anyway,so why are they mentioning it?

Beyonce is one of the least fanciable people on the planet, I think. She's just so objectionable, her attitude - I mean, it's great to be all positive and strong, but she isn't that at all, I find her to be almost degrading to women in that she's held herself up as some sort of positive role model when all she does is bitch and moan and whine about how much everyone hates her cos she's so, so, so pretty. GUESS WHAT BEYONCE, EVERY GIRL I WORK WITH IS PRETTIER THAN YOU, WE DON'T HATE YOU BECAUSE OF THAT, WE HATE YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE ANNOYING.

Some men like to buy women things, but they are really just trying to buy the woman.

Beyonce is actually like a lot of the women (and men!) I know i.e. she is monstrously arrogant, hugely alert to everyone's faults but her own, a flaming hypocrite, and annoyingly good at her job. So points for telling it how it iz - but I still don't fancy her (Survivor vid aside).

survivor? oh no make it go away. That self help style positive lyric style is pretty damn scary. Independent woman is all about women making their own cash, preferably not by hawking drugs, pumping out babies for child support or selling themselves on the street- that is not showing strength or self respect. I got the idea from the video that female power was all about dressing up in sexy outfits and beating up men, though it would be a travesty if anyone showed 3 men wearing hotpants beating up a woman. why is it ok to portray women being violent like that?

How about "Hit Em Up Style"? I love the song, but that sentiment is atrocious.

I was really sad I didn't have time to participate in the focus group this time round, because I had this long diatribe prepared about "Hit Em Up Style". It is an insanely catchy song, but message of the song is so evil and unhealthy.

Actually, Beyonce isn't irritatingly good at her job, but that's just me. She doesn't seem attuned to anyone's faults at all, Tom. Her main interview schtick is talking about how jealous EVERYONE is of her. I imagine that, in elementary school, Beyonce was a gawky thing with big glasses and braces and really terrible clothing with Peter Pan collars, and was laughed at heartily by everyone, and this is her sad, sad way of making herself feel better about it. But she's not exactly listing the world's faults, just that she's sure she's better than everyone else, especially men.

I just don't agree with the crap they put in their songs. Their best songs sonically are all about whinging about men. It's stupid and sad. GET OVER IT.

*points to Shaggy thread* Why's he getting such a run of it while everyone argues with me that Destiny's Child are NOT sexists, and no one but Kerry's pointed out Hit 'Em Up Style at all?

I only heard "Hit Em Up Style" the other day for the focus group and it bugged me greatly, though me being me I was initially pissed off with that fucking loop first and foremost.

*relistens to it again to make sure*

Oh god YES, what a fucking nightmare! And the way she's singing as well! GRR! I think I'll ask Mike to reduce whatever I gave it, it wasn't low enough.

*listens to lyrics with intent*

This is a dumb song.

As for Beyonce: there is a difference between knowing you're good at what you do and always *acting* that way. That latter problem just infests even the way she sings. Brr.

i like DC for their songs, but i don't find them to be particularly empowering to women, despite the fact that THEY seem to think it. i can't stand Beyonce, she seems like a fascist.

i also like "hit em up style" but think the message of the song is pretty appalling.

sorry to ask a perhaps obvious question, but ally do you think DC are sexist cos they are always whinging about men?

this thread has started me thinking about some things i hadn't thought about before. so i have to go away and think for a while now.

Beyonce is as cool as Nico, if not cooler! Also, overlooking the brilliance of the music because of the 'bad attitude', that would be, um, s*xism, if you don't do that for every other rock/hiphop/R&B prick ever born, which you don't and don't/shouldn't want to!

Actually Menelaus the Charlie's Angels film from whence those ass- kicking scenes come (or at least take off on) has a long sequence where Christian Glover beats up women while "Smack My Bitch Up" is playing. It's equal-opportunity violence, don't you worry.

The difference is that DC (and Blu Cantrell whose song is great if yes not v.positive) are singing more specifically - they are outlining scenarios in which men have treated them badly. Singing about that isn't sexist in the way that "No Scrubs" could be construed to be. As for Shaggy, the conversation on the other thread is about his videos not his songs duh. Since DC videos are about DC not wearing much, generally, the comparison doesn't really stand up.

I think the "I'm lookin' at my baby's father" is the most disturbing line on 'Survivor' - beats anything PJ Harvey has come up with!

In fact, the whole record could've been written by Richard Dawkins

Remember that All Saints video where they beat up the men? How sassy. Going back to DC I must say the line "ladies it aint easy being independent" kind of bugs me aswell. I mean, shouldn't it be like a natural thing or something? The way she says it sounds like every day she has to try and be independent. I'm really nitpicking now.

Tom, I was thinking of the bit where Destinies Child do the man bashing, aint no Tommy Lee to slap 'em up in sight

"If I surround myself with positive things" - as I pointed out once on a censored focus group answer - not all positive things are necessarily good. HIV Positive f'rinstance...

Don't like the use of the word surround in conjunction with "myself". Makes no sense to me.

The thing I love about this song is that if you actually listen to the verses it's kind of weak but in a very defined way, ie you can be an Independent Woman without being a feminazi lesbian, and still be girly, eg Line 3 "I only ring your cellie when I'm feeling lonely". In fact the first 4 lines are an absolutely spot on description of what girl power actually looks like, and I think it's marvellous.

Ronan, "Laydeez, it ain't easy being independent" is THE MOST IMPORTANT LINE IN THE SONG.

Damian: Huh? That's exactly why they're mentioning it.

discuss this message

(What I meant was that the song (and DC) aren't anything like as vicious or mang-hating as they're made out to be. That is all)

Yeah I agree I think they're trying to walk the line between being girly girls and being independent women which doesn't really work but who cares. Kelis kind of has that angry man hating thing going on, but she is far better than DC. Also Timo Maas has a good Kelis remix doing the rounds lately.

The reduction of women's personalities to a single dimension - 'girliness', 'man-hating' etc. is pretty lame, though.

Actually what Damian said is really true I think, and it's pretty much symptomatic of everything bad about DC. 50/50 should be a for granted in relationships. To even mention it is to suggest that it could be any other way. And that's what DC seem to do all the time. What was that Shakespeare quote, "I fear he doth protest too much". That's DC as far as I can see, if they are so independent why are they telling us all the fuckin time. Look at Kylie or someone, I don't see her as any less empowered than Beyonce.

Well also if you look at Caught Out There - the obvious man hating Kelis song - the lyric is very specific. "I hate you so much right now" - which partially acknowledges that this is a mood based phenomenon, and that hating someone is not a good position to be in. She will hate for a bit and then move on. This kind of complexity is rarely touched upon in DC, or in their Jelly.

(I note it's only blokes on this thread)

I think you only need look at the rest of pop culture Ronan to see that this is not an arena where 50/50 relationship splits are taken for granted. (It's a naive idea anyway, all relationships are unequal, ideally the inequality should shift around over time though).

Which DC songs hate men? I mean in a generalised man-hating sense rather than asserting independence/survival or talking about a specific situation?

What about you, Graham? [sorry]

Anyone who has writing and production credits (like Beyonce) can bitch about whatever they want, they're still 'Independent' to a degree. Actions speak louder!

What are we interpreting 50/50 as?

financially 50/50? love 50/50? sex? what?

What sense do DC mean it in? And then maybe we can discuss it.

"And then maybe we can discuss it" - Ronan you started going on about how it was symptomatic of all that was wrong with DC before I did. So it's a bit rich to suddenly say oh let's define our terms.

You're always so cranky with me. I genuinely want to know. You picked a hole in my argument and I just want to re-think it then with a definition. I was going to say oh well DC obviously see it in terms of power in relationships in which case I think my argument stands but on reflection who knows what 50/50 in relationships could mean. Lots of different things. I'm sorry if I sounded condescending or something, I didn't mean to.

I kind of thought it stood for all those things. Apologies for crankiness, most unlike me I'm sure.

I suppose it does. That would make it a complete buzz word though as far as I see, proving your point somewhat.

Crankiness = like a crank. Tom = crank. Hence cranky.

(Krankiness = like the Krankies. We need a couple where the lady likes dressing up as a little boy for that one. RickyT & Sarah?)

My supply of green ink is never far away.

When i was 10 i was in a pantomime with the Krankies (and Stan Boardman). FACT.

Surely 50/50 refers to the material / financial basis of the relationship: ie. you buy your stuff, I'll buy mine; we'll split those bills bills bills or take it in turns; I'm not putting myself under a (potential / perceived) obligation to you by moving into *your* house or whatever... This seems a neat ideal, but I can think of very few relationships in which this could ever be the case -- as Tom says, and this goes for emotional support / power etc., relationships are always an economy of inequality, but you would hope that over the long term, they'd work out as roughly equal in the final reckoning. Besides, it is worth stating when contemporary pop largely depicts courtship in terms of one partner making advances to the other in terms of material goods -- buying drinks, buying dinner, etc. etc. (even if these also have symbolic as well as material value.)

It seems odd to interpret pop songs as if they were all designed to give a message -- this seems to turn the recording artists into propoganda merchants and the record-buying public into mindless drones who follow the dictate of their musical masters. The Kelis song is explicit (and she has stressed this in interview) -- she hates you so much RIGHT NOW. Surely the Blu Cantrell song, and possibly the DC song, express passing emotions -- you may want to get back at your man if he's cheated on you, and you may get a kick out of listening to a revenge song at that moment, but it doesn't mean you (or Blu Cantrell) are going to actually do it.

Besides I can entirely enjoy either 'Hit em Up Style' or 'Independent Women' without being either a woman, or cheated upon, or independent. The extent to which the appreciation of pop is based on some kind of imaginary identification with the characters in the lyrics or videos seems to be over-rated on a regular basis.

Also, overlooking the brilliance of the music because of the 'bad attitude'

Actually, Dave, I'm overlooking the brilliance of the music because I - shock horror - don't like their music. They're overrated slosh, a good 80% of their songs are downright vile, 18% are okay-ish, and a grand 2% are actually good. I mean, other than Bugaboo, I can't think of any DC songs I still want to listen to, even the ones I liked when they came out. They're quite easily the most overrated band in existance around these parts - I mean, some of the praise of them in these parts of the 'net make the most ardent Radiohead fans seem extremely reasonable and even-tempered about it.

The thing is, I don't like the excuse that DC's messages (or Blu Cantrell or whomever) are perfectly excusable because that's how they feel "RIGHT NOW". Because who is to say (extreme example warning) that "Kim" isn't how Eminem feels RIGHT NOW but will feel different two days from now? I'm not arguing the point that I actually give a shit about what DC are saying or that I think they're sexist or man- bashing - I mean, they DO carry on far too much about how men wrong them, but that's just because they have a bad attitude about how EVERY BLOODY PERSON IN THE ENTIRE WORLD is against them. They're assholes, basically put. The Blu Cantrell song is silly - but so is Shaggy.

It's basically the devil's advocate position: you can't knock on male artists for doing the exact same thing that "pretty" female artists are doing in reverse. It's reverse sexism and that's just as wrong as regular sexism. I just see far too many people getting offended by sentiments expressed by male artists while not even blinking an eye at "No Scrubs" - if it's wrong for Jay-Z to rant the way he does about "bitches" in "Can I Get A...", then why is it funny and empowering for TLC to go on basically admitting to this behavior in "No Scrubs"?

It boils down to this: bashing men is okay. Bashing women is sexist and/or misogynist. I don't agree with this (my own opinion is that bashing everyone is okay, cos most people deserve it, but regardless).

The no. of pop songs which don't have some kind of oppositional attitude is really tiny (leavng aside love songs, obviously). There's usually someone to bash - DC do it no more than anyone else around currently and it's become a kind of critical brain-fart position on them.

How many ppl here are actually saying woman-bashing in songs is bad though - on the Shaggy thread most people are defending Shaggy, and on the 'offended' threads the biggest moral disapproval has gone to Blu Cantrell, who is a woman.

I personally am less offended by No Scrubs than I am by some bitch- bashing song because I'm a scrub and can see their point.

Hey, I don't have a car either, and if TLC doesn't want me for that reason, their loss. ;-)

I think stuff like "Hit Em Up Style" is actually more likely to piss women off *because* it's this distortion of feminism that shows up in popular culture all the time. And because I think a lot of us are feeling like we'll have to answer for that sooner or later.

Besides, I don't think being dependent upon a man's money to execute your revenge is an inspiring scenario.

And I told myself I wouldn't get involved in these pop song threads, because the truth is, I don't get all that worked up about it. I don't think Di was either, in the Shaggy thread. But since, people asked...

How many runny-nose kids can you have?
How many nights can you work on the Ave.?
Your so-called man has a car and a Visa
He's livin large while you're livin on pizza

- Roxanne Shanté, "Independent Woman"

i just realised the snapshot argt turns round and bites me: i would say — would strongly defend the idea — that any given song represents a momentary feeling, and that's what's interesting in a song: well, the shaggy i'm defending is the shaggy of "it wasn't me" (the song), which it turns out isn't the shaggy di was after (yes a singular instancre disprovesa general point, but as i haven;t even the video di dislikes, i don't know how/ whether it wd change the way i hear IT WASN'T ME). i rilly rilly like DC, but what that actually means is i like four or five songs by them A LOT (words sorta tho not entirely irrelevant), and haven't really even listened to all their many other ones (since all ballads evah by anyone can fuck off).

all relationship songs are actually abt star/ group's rel'nship with AUDIENCE anyway, which makes this 50% thing kinda interesting => because i don't know what it means in that context. I think it's this: she's looing out at the audience and saying, "Jesus look at you, it's not as easy as you think to be worthy of me and my music." Well, this is bonkers — tho of course lots of artists think it but don't say it. Beyoncé does: I like that not because I agree with her, but because I want to see what happens when you say stuff like that out loud.

I think the Blu Cantrell song is basically pro-woman and even more than that, anti-bourgeois, in a way. Where else on the top ten would you see a car driven by a woman, with her two (named in the song) friends in the back, and have the driver sing 'There goes the house we made a home' and cut to the two friends mockingly putting their hands to their cheeks and jeeringly saying 'oops' ... and besides it's a cool song, Cab Calloway sort of thing ... it reflects a materialistic attitude that equates independence with money and I agree that sucks, but on the other hand it reflects the socioligical reality that far more women live in poverty than men, that they still only earn two thirds of what men do in their lifetime (and these differences are even more pronounced for black women) ... etc.

It reflects that, but it doesn't really comment on that.

Mind you, I don't want to sound like I require moralism in my music - I don't. The song doesn't offend so much as make me cringe - that is, while I'm enjoying the music. But I don't think it's particularly political. The sentiment expressed is more the consequence of conditions - there aren't any generalisms made from it. Which is fine - I'm not looking for Julianne Malveaux with cool samples.

The entire reason why "Hit 'Em Up Style" is so great is down to the loop in the background. The revenge fantasy is merely icing.

the loop in the background

DEATH TO LOOP. Don't ask me why I feel this way, it just rubbed me wrong from the first moment I heard it. Yech!

maybe the historical injustice is that women were put in a position of depending on men for food and shelter, which isn't optional, whereas men's 'dependency' on women was for sex and companionship. And this is the historical hangover ... therefore women's songs about taking men's money are less immoral than Shaggy QED

by the way B. Cantrell's song says 'revenge is better than money you'll see' - she's losing her riches basically and taking her man down with her - so she's actually an irrational sadist, rather than a ruthless golddigger

Cab Calloway ref. spot on. Those old swing/jump blues were loaded with great comedy sadism, esp. in the sex-war area, from both sides, e.g. Waller's "Your Feets Too Big"! I mean, how cruel is that? But it's HILARIOUS.

"if I surround myself with positive things it will bring prosperity"

That's the sort of thing David Byrne gets praised to the skies for! And if Thom Yorke wrote it, people would say it was the best line ever written.

But it's still shite

All "if X had written it" arguments are poor and this one's no exception. If Thom Yorke wrote it nobody would say it's the best line ever written, those of us interested would have a good old chinstroke about whether it was a) sarcastic or b) evidence of an upbeat new outlook on the part of R'Head. Context innit.

I s'pose, but 'Survivor' is better musically than 'Amnesiac', so that's the context I stuck it into.

what if billy bragg had written it?

Maryann's got it: Blue Cantrell = brill becuz she is irrational sadist. I'm always surprised at how many people demand that pop stars be pleasant. Common thread in "Caught Out There", "Hit 'Em Up Style", "Survivor" etc. is pop as warfare committed against the listener, from the "I survive-you destruct" narratives to the shrill and blary arrangements and singing. I love pop music that sounds like it wants to whip me a bit.

i like kelly's hair - otherwise DC boorink

Common thread in "Caught Out There", "Hit 'Em Up Style", "Survivor" etc. is pop as warfare committed against the listener, from the "I survive-you destruct" narratives to the shrill and blary arrangements and singing.

But I would argue that Hit Em Up Style is more of a "you survive I destruct" narrative. Blu's notion of revenge is extremely needy: it's entirely dependent on someone else's money, and who's to say if that's even what her ex cares about. It comes off as a blind lashing out that merely serves to make her look small and pathetic.

And don't even get me started on the "buckwild" part of the song, that's a whole 'nother tanget.

i like ^emotions^ - they sang it well on totp - DC are bttr than atmkttn but they are at war with men in thar cmbt bikinis so no techprowess skitterywhomp can make me love them - bring on the nu- flesh[ rosie off popidols ? - actually no] im too fluffy fr DC

^separatist agendaz wiltin yo membaz^ - 'hey gurlz' by Big Twat

Did anybody hear Kelis' "Get Even"? If "Caught Out There" was the initial fury, this track is sort of the tip toeing murder-scheme follow up. I like this more subversive and sinister approach towards destroying the ex.

Nicole, I don't know if "Hit 'Em Up Style" is pathetic so much as horrendously cynical (not necc. a bad thing). The implication is that an emotional investment is similar to a financial one: you put in the hard work when you invest in the hope that the prospects are sufficiently good that you'll be "provided for" in the future, and when it goes bust you're not only back to square one, but you're also minus all the years and effort you spent accumulating that emotional security. In some ways we go into relationships like we would go into a investment venture, and we stay with them until there's a convenient point to sell or the investment goes bust.

Blu's reaction to her man's infidelity is absurd and not-very-admirable, but I think it's very logical, because it directly parallels what he's done to her. She can't hit him emotionally because he's already declared emotional bankruptcy and wasted their accumulated bonds of affection, but by spending all his money she can at least put him through an analogous trauma. Note how she actually explains her position using a metaphor of prosperity/security: "all of the dreams you sold have left me out in the cold."

doesn't Blu Cantrell sing something in the bridge implying that her man depended on her to acquire all the material things he acquired, that it'll take him years to get it all back without her? in which case - although i still don't approve of ripping someone off for breaking your heart - its more complex than our posts here have made out.