Should you be allowed to choose the sex of your baby?

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I can't see any good reason why you shouldn't be able to, if the technology's there. But it's been banned in Australia:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Banned-choosing-a-babys-sex/2005/03/24/1111525296888.html

What is the case in the UK, anyone know?

ned raggett's more attractive younger brother, Thursday, 24 March 2005 15:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Sure, why not. In the overall scheme of things, I don't see where it will make any difference to the human race.

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 24 March 2005 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe in cultures where a male baby is prized to the extent that girls are sometime killed after birth this would be a problem.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 24 March 2005 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

If a couple keeps trying to have a boy, but keeps having girls, they're just producing a whole litter of babies that they didn't really want in the first place. If they could choose, that could be eliminated.

If every couple decides it's better to have girls than boys and there is a population shift - overall the population would be reduced over time, which wouldn't be a bad thing ... The inequality in numbers might mean some lezzing up would be necessary though... But maybe the gay gene could be inserted in a few to keep everyone happy.


xpost

Maybe in cultures where a male baby is prized to the extent that girls are sometime killed after birth this would be a problem.
..It may save some girls from getting killed, innit?

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 24 March 2005 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

It's the whole moral thing though isn't it? How many people will want to do this when so many parents don't even want to know the sex of their baby until it's born?

Obviously it will be chosen by parents whose genes may pose a risk of heriditary illness, but imagine the boy you chose NOT to have in favour of a girl may have grown up to invent the cure for cancer, and your longed for frilly dressed girl becomes a crack addled gangsta ho smelling up your neighbourhood? Goes too deep man....

Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Thursday, 24 March 2005 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Like kids don't have enough things to blame on their parents during their teens!!!

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 24 March 2005 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

ned raggett's more attractive younger brother

Ah, THERE you are!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 March 2005 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

should be allowed. wouldnt advise it unless youre in one of those girl-killing countries or have some sort of medical problem tho.

AaronK (AaronK), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

According to Lord Dr Winston (or is it Dr Lord Winston) on the radio this morning, it's not going to require IVF within a couple of years, just sperm sorting and will be a trivial procedure with no wasted embryos. What's the moral position going to be on that?

Ed (dali), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

he may be lord professor winston, I forget.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Nobody knows why there's almost exactly 50/50 men and women. It's kind of fascinating that it hasn't leaned one way or the other. Like there's one stag for every eight does, so why are humans split so evenly?

andy --, Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think there's really one stag for every 8 does. There's just one very lucky stag and 7 unlucky ones.

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

This seems like a terrible idea, frankly, although I guess it beats throwing daughters off cliffs.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

The libertarian in me says, 'yes', but then I wonder why any civilized person would care what sex their child was.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 17:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe I should just expose that libertarian in me to a little mob violence from all the other political personalities in my head.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

No.

luna (luna.c), Thursday, 24 March 2005 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Apparently, when people are allowed to select the gender of their children, they are no more rational than they are at anything else. It can fundamentally change a society, if the proportion of men to women goes haywire. But then again, so much else is going haywire that possibly no one would notice.

Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Just in case he doesn't get the requisite dose, I have to say, Aimless OTM!

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

[Aimless clasps hands together and performs a series of small, precisely calibrated bows to the four cardinal directions.]

Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

It should not be the solution (-> saving girls from being thrown off a cliff) as there are better solutions. Also, where do you stop with this? Next up, choosing height?

nathalie barefoot in the head (stevie nixed), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Eventually, we will be able to pick from a detailed menu regarding size, color, hair, athletic ability, sexual orientation, intelligence, and all our problems will be solved. Yes they will.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

C4 news says 80% of people selecting sex in the US select girls.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, where do you stop with this? Next up, choosing height?

But really, what's the matter with that? (aside from everyone eventually looking exactly alike.)

FWIW, I wouldn't genetically engineer my kid - I'd prefer that it work as nature makes it work - (although it'a little late for that, with the amount of chemicals & hormones we've been artificially exposed to in the last 100 years.)

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

if you're allowed to terminate a pregnancy shouldn't you be able to alter it? your body, yourself.

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, doctor, we were hoping for a four-legged female with blond hair, the ability to navigate by means of echo-location, and perennially regenerating teeth so we can cut the dentist out of the picture, moeny-wise, forever. Also a tail would be cute and if she could develop the ability to spit deadly venom at, say, the age of 19, we'd feel a lot safer sending her off to school. Whaddya say?

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Absolutely not. If I were a religious person, I'd explain this in moralistic terms. But I'm not so I don't.

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I say that's not economically or scientifically feasible.

(x-post)

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's a moral stab at it, Jeremy. In a culture where the roles of men and women are still being renegotiated in the biggest gender upheaval in the history of humanity and where people are apt to take a partisan line re the superiority of their own gender, the joker, so to speak, in the deck of lack of empathy for the other sex, is that you might have to raise one. High principles will need to be tempered by feasiblity and easy prejudice will be swept aside by experience.

I'm not sure I would support a blanket ban on couples choosing the sex of their children. I suppose it wouldn't bug me if a couple with two boys decided on a third and last girl, but it could easily lead to some very chauvinistic family eugenics.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I say that's not economically or scientifically feasible.

Yet.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I have my own qualms with eugenics, but anybody who is staunchly pro-choice (as I am) should consider whether they want to apply morality to childbirth.

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

So if we could engineer humans into apes, would that be a coup for evolutionists or intelligent-design~ists ?

Good point though, about slippery slope & all .. but that presumes that the ability to spit venom is generally undesirable.

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

If a couple keeps trying to have a boy, but keeps having girls, they're just producing a whole litter of babies that they didn't really want in the first place. If they could choose, that could be eliminated.
That'd be great for my elemntary school piano teacher. She and her husband have tried time and time again to have a girl and now they've got ten boys.


The libertarian in me says, 'yes', but then I wonder why any civilized person would care what sex their child was.
One of the reasons I won't have children is that I'm very afraid of having a son. The male Beverlys pretty much want each other dead, you see...:
My grandfather hates his father for putting him up for adoption and never was concerned about my brother and I until he started feeling lonely after his second wife died, and so I never met him until I was ten.
My father hates my grandfather, his brother, my brother and I.
My brother and I hate our father, could care less about our grandfather, and haven't an opinion on our uncle (but thank goodness he's had a daughter).
My uncle tolerates my grandfather out of obedience but I'm sure he really loathes him at heart, probably pities my brother, and I don't think he has an opinion on my brother and I since we haven't seen him in years.

But shaky family relations are why (if I wanted to have children and could ever afford it) I'd want a daughter. I'm worried I'll turn into something wretched like my father or my grandfather and hurt my son and have him loathe me. I don't think I'd be so cruel to my daughter. However, I don't want children of my own general and find spawning unnecessary. Maybe I'll adopt in the future...

What we want? Sex with T.V. stars! What you want? Ian Riese-Moraine! (Eastern Ma, Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I have my own qualms with eugenics, but anybody who is staunchly pro-choice (as I am) should consider whether they want to apply morality to childbirth.

I may be staunchly pro-choice but it's not because I believe the State has 0% interest in regards to childbirth and maternal health, only that the rights of individuals with regard to their own bodies must be considered paramount. In respect to luxuries and vanities like choosing sex or eye color, I think I might have to look at the equation again to determine whether I really thought the interest of the State in maintaining equality was not compelling enough to override an individual's right. One cannot engage in much body manipulation of children in this country, though tellingly, as we discuss often enough, male circumcision is not on the list of proscribed practices, so why not also protect the fetus from daddy's selfish wish to have a boy to play ball with or mommy's desire for a little doll to dress up. Might not the State be considered to have a compelling interest if the lack of legislation permitted the breeding of a physically distinct caste of the wealthiest while the poor were left with all the occasional deformities and diseases bequeathed by history?

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

so would eugenics be ok if they were socialized?

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the difference between choosing the sex of a child and having an abortion is that one results in a baby.

teeny (teeny), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi, I've got no intelligent argument here. Or can't be fucked to formulate one. But if you care about the sex of the child more than having a child, why not adopt? It's not like there's a shortage of orphaned babies, and it actively bothers me how frequently this option's dismissed/overlooked.

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

but its the fetus that is being finagled with, and a fetus is not a child. lots of corrective measures and body modifications are done on humans. I had five corrective operations on my right ear as a child. So do we want to say that a fetus should be protected from the wishes of its creators?

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that's specious reasoning, Anthony... one doesn't change the color of a child's eyes after being born. Nor (except in some hermaphroditic cases) 'correct' the gender. 'Corrective measures' always presumes a regressive biological heirarchy favoring the fetishised traits of the parental-generation.

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Miccio, I don't know and I haven't though this through but we most certainly do not live in purely libertarian state of individual freedom. I am not purely against some eugenics (a word horribly tainted by racism and nazism) if it can lead to greater happiness. If your family or ethnic background is more liable to express x undesirable trait like sickle cell or diabetes and this can be avoided through eugenics, I'm all for it but it should be regulated medically and legally.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think we have to worry about a lack of regulation in regards to childbirth.

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

My personal preference would be to adopt, Jeremy, but I also feel it's quite natural for (some) people to want to have kids and to want those kids to be healthy so my attitiude must be based on an opinion that takes individuals, society, and the law into consideration to form a just, fair, equitable, and practical principle or principles.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

'Corrective measures' always presumes a regressive biological heirarchy favoring the fetishised traits of the parental-generation.

tell me you're not against people having physical deformities operated on because they're merely "favoring the fetishized traits of the parental-generation." cuz that's what your paragraph reads like.

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

So do we want to say that a fetus should be protected from the wishes of its creators?

Much of what makes me uncomfortable is the idea that the born child will have been objectified by the loony wishes of its 'creators', or in the Kantian sense, they will have treated their child not as an end itself but as a means to an end, especially when that 'end' is something as politically farught with peril as sex or as full of shallow folly as eye or hair color.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Which 'deformities' are we talking about here, guys? Ovaries or knock knees? Blue eyes or a heart defect? They are not equivalent.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

like parents aren't capable of doing that already?

(x-post)

miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I think not. I also think that people that try so desperately to have a child of their own (i.e. the couple who yearn to win the amazing race so they can make a baby) are, in my opinion, missing a point. Perhaps some have a less-than-positive feeling about adoption, thinking it unpredictable or akin to choosing a stray from the pound. Wrapped in cultural attitudes toward discard. I don't know. It does bother me an awful lot, though. Nature has a way of righting itself & should the sex of children become something that can be pre-determined, I imagine this balance to be thrown off. People have mentioned countries like China where the female population is quite low b/c males are more valued. Who knows if this would happen elsewhere, but it seems it could. I'm not feeling the most articulate today . . . it just bothers me.

kelsey (kelstarry), Thursday, 24 March 2005 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

like parents aren't capable of doing that already?

Of course they are but should this be encouraged, considered morally neutral, or discouraged and by what means socially, legally...it's really the gist of this debate/discussion.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 24 March 2005 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

"sperm sorting"?

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 24 March 2005 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I misread that as "sperm shortening" and imagined a really small pair of pliers clipping the tails off the li'l guys in a bowl of semen.

Remy (x Jeremy), Friday, 25 March 2005 02:07 (twenty-one years ago)

botany bay...!

mookieproof (mookieproof), Friday, 25 March 2005 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

This really bothers me- not the matter of whether it should be legal, which I can't answer, but the idea that people would do it. If you start planning your kid from the beginning, what happens when it gets a mind of its own and starts doing things you DON'T like or didn't plan? Might as well get used to the element of surprise from the beginning, right?

I'm agnostically Christian and pro-choice, but I've always kind of thought of children as gifts from God in that you don't know what you're getting and you just have to deal with it. Same with the death penalty, it seems wrong and hubristic to mess with it.

Maria (Maria), Friday, 25 March 2005 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

"Might not the State be considered to have a compelling interest if the lack of legislation permitted the breeding of a physically distinct caste of the wealthiest while the poor were left with all the occasional deformities and diseases bequeathed by history?"
and
"Which 'deformities' are we talking about here, guys? Ovaries or knock knees? Blue eyes or a heart defect? They are not equivalent."

This is the sort of slippery slope argument that is usually brought up by those who think that "designer babies" are a bad thing. But I tend to think that it's flawed and self-contradictory. First off, why should the state be interested in making certain that everyone start off equal? And if the second place, no one starts off equal now anyway. Does it really matter if it's "nature" or "heredity" or "the parent's choice" that's the source?

As for sex selection in general, this has been going on for ages in various cultures (generally through infanticide, but also through awareness of ovulation--female sperm last longer but male sperm are faster. or so the theory goes). And yes, sometimes it does have interesting social implications. Maybe 20 years down the line we will all be practicing polyandry. Who cares?

mouse (mouse), Friday, 25 March 2005 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

1) Maria - I agree
2) Mouse - I agree... and I do care. But I don't think you need to bother responding to the 'slippery slope' argument. Slippery slope arguments are always ridiculous.

Remy (x Jeremy), Friday, 25 March 2005 03:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Friday, 25 March 2005 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

but then I wonder why any civilized person would care what sex their child was.

Some families have a history of certain sex-linked hereditary disorders. However, I have no idea what percentage of couples interested in sex selection fall into this category.

j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 25 March 2005 04:39 (twenty-one years ago)


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