I felt I was being a bit cruel using this "guilt-by-association" method, but Chris' intransigence called for harsh measures. I expected him either to be infuriated or shamed by the image, but in fact he seemed neither. "It's a fair cop," he said. Maybe he really looks like this photo, or doesn't think the guy it depicts is uncool at all.
This made me start thinking about some of my old, big themes: the universal and the situated, text and texture, thought and feeling. It sometimes seems to me that a transitional phase the internet is going through -- the phase in which we're still relating to other people as text on a page, rather than visual avatars or full 3D representations -- has somewhat distorted my normal relational tendencies, in ways both good and bad. I've spent the last five years debating people on the internet, responding to them as lines of text, abstractions, rather than embodied people who "would think the way they do, considering the way they look".
Now, this obviously relates to some huge issues. Does Justice wear a blindfold? Why? Should I "turn a blind eye" to someone's particularities, or "make allowances" for them? Should I treat everybody the same or treat everyone as they individually deserve? Should I judge before I speak or after I hear the response? Should you judge a book by the cover, or should you judge a cover by the book? Was Oscar Wilde right to say that "Only the superficial fail to judge on appearances"? And in a world where we talk to people based on texture, feeling, emotion, the specifics of our connection rather than objective, textual, rational criteria like "being right", what is "talking" like? Isn't it more like a "shout out"?
Should I feel guilty that I judge people based on visual-textural cues? Isn't that in fact crucial to my personal skills, a way to filter likely friends from likely enemies, a way to establish longterm connections which won't dissolve into inevitable hostility sooner or later? Should my mind be so open that, as Howard Devoto put it, "anything could crawl right in"? What if first impressions, visual impressions, were mostly right? What if one of life's big lessons turned out to be "Trust your instincts, trust your first impressions, trust your emotions rather than suspending judgement and trying to come to some reasonable, reasoned assessment!" And why is it seen as one of the virtues of language that it gives us so few clues about the things it describes? Are details supposed to bias us? Should someone's smell, or the specificities of their face, be excluded from the court, but their words be deemed worthy of judgement? Why?
Do you find yourself thinking "You would think that way, looking like that!" in real life, but thinking "Why on earth do you think that way, let me try to your mind!" when interacting with exactly the same person on the internet? Is it a waste of time arguing with someone who smells? If there was a way to see, taste, hear and smell people on the internet, would your debating style change? Is it only the lack of 90% of the relevant information about a person that makes you debate them?
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:16 (twenty-one years ago)
― TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)
― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)
― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)
No, I'm kidding. I've seen photos of you on ILX's very useful photo threads. But what do those photo threads do to our debates on other threads? How do they change the way we relate in debate? Is a debate in which all our posts have passport-style photos next to them feel very different from a debate where we're all just lines of text on a white page?
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)
It's something that by reflex we have to assume is a terrible thing to do, because judging books by covers is always bad, right
― TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)
There are two completely different languages running alongside each other, the rational-symbolic language where we all think we share the same terms and can defend our positions the way we would when we play chess, and the visual-associative language. The first is a language of universals, a rational language of thoughts, the second a language of specifics, an emotional language of textures and the feelings they evoke. Now, the internet has so far favoured the first. But as bandwidth increases, it will increasingly favour the second.
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)
Also, a person's inside and outside is much more intimately linked than a book's cover and inside, which are usually the ill-coordinated products of two different people
Reading that back, it struck me that every human being is also "the ill-coordinated product of two different people"!
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)
Momus, I think you have worked hard to physically resemble the kind of person you want to be, and now you are spot-on. It must be exhausting! Me, I just look like a swollen mashup of Rowan Atkinson and old-school Pee-Wee Herman, except as an ex-jock. I'm not sure if that's how I come across here or not, but I kind of doubt it.
― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)
That sounds like that Talking Heads song Seen and Not Seen:
He would see faces in movies, on T.V., in magazines, and in books....He thought that some of these faces might be right for him....Andthrough the years, by keeing an ideal facial structure fixed in hismind....Or somewhere in the back of his mind....That he might, byforce of will, cause his face to approach those of his ideal....Thechange would be very subtle....It might take ten years or so....Gradually his face would change its' shape....A more hooked nose...Wider, thinner lips....Beady eyes....A larger forehead.He imagined that this was an ability he shared with most otherpeople....They had also molded their faced according to someideal....Maybe they imagined that their new face would bettersuit their personality....Or maybe they imagined that theirpersonality would be forced to change to fit the new appear-ance....This is why first impressions are often correct...Although some people might have made mistakes....They may havearrived at an appearance that bears no relationship to them....They may have picked an ideal appearance based on some childishwhim, or momentary impulse....Some may have gotten half-waythere, and then changed their minds.He wonders if he too might have made a similar mistake.
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)
I'm not going to go so far as saying Wilde was spot on but I sure as hell know there's not going to be any good wine in a bottle that looks like, well, you know what kinds of bottles I'm talking about, so there's no reason to assume that it isn't a valid judgement?
I tend to think of it as similar to some of (scientifically valid, not new-age) holistic methods employed in anthropological studies - there's nothing that can't be measured, recorded, and analyzed for correlation, and no hypotheses than can be derived from the data are intrinsically evil. When your anthropometrist starts discussing institutionalized eugenics that's a different matter, but really we all perform our own eugenics all the time, when we avoid fucking ugly people.
― TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)
― TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)
"It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances."
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)
― cozen (Cozen), Friday, 25 March 2005 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)
it makes me sad that other ppl do, because i am ugly.
― jeff bule??, Friday, 25 March 2005 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)
― Masked Gazza, Friday, 25 March 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)
You almost lost me with this opening line, but I read through the rest of it anyway.
"Pablo" has some monster earlobes, by the way.
― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 25 March 2005 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)
― Silky Sensor (sexyDancer), Friday, 25 March 2005 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)
― Mike Hanle y (mike), Saturday, 26 March 2005 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:07 (twenty-one years ago)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)
the tricky thing about the internet, and even more if it goes the way you say, is people can control their 'appearance'. which would only make things more confusing. you are judging people by their ideals and their ability to appear as if they reached them. you can only see people's reactions, their 'energy', how they treat you and others by spending realtime with them.
― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:30 (twenty-one years ago)
i thought the conventional wisdom was that he was an extremely sweet and cultured man
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 26 March 2005 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)
In other words I don't think you can answer Momus's question (it IS a question right?) in the abstract.
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 26 March 2005 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)
and also in *real life* (whatever that is).
― nathalie barefoot in the head (stevie nixed), Saturday, 26 March 2005 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)
― Mike Hanle y (mike), Sunday, 27 March 2005 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)
Its amazing that someone who writes as much as you do either simply can't read or chooses to take fragment quotes out of context. The "it's a fair cop guv'nor" had nothing to do with your GIS picture. In any event, I could care less about how you think I look. Next time you are in town PLMK and you can see for yourself.
― Chris In Question, Monday, 28 March 2005 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)
― Affectian (Affectian), Monday, 28 March 2005 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)
and i say: new proverb time! "post-modernists should know better than to not judge a book by its cover"
― robert duckworth, Monday, 28 March 2005 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)
― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 28 March 2005 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)
― Robert Duckworth, Monday, 28 March 2005 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)
― Robert Duckworth, Monday, 28 March 2005 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)
― Ken L (Ken L), Monday, 28 March 2005 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)