You would think that way, looking like that!

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Today I was arguing with someone called Chris on a blog. Although I was answering his points on their own merits in a fairly objective way, he started resorting to sarcasm rather than answering mine, so I decided a different tactic was called for. Out went Reason, in came Ridicule. I decided to image-google a picture of someone who looked the way Chris posted. I ran a search on "employee photos" and found some guy who worked at a Chevvy dealership who really resembled the mental image I'd built up of Chris through his posts over the course of a few weeks.

I felt I was being a bit cruel using this "guilt-by-association" method, but Chris' intransigence called for harsh measures. I expected him either to be infuriated or shamed by the image, but in fact he seemed neither. "It's a fair cop," he said. Maybe he really looks like this photo, or doesn't think the guy it depicts is uncool at all.

This made me start thinking about some of my old, big themes: the universal and the situated, text and texture, thought and feeling. It sometimes seems to me that a transitional phase the internet is going through -- the phase in which we're still relating to other people as text on a page, rather than visual avatars or full 3D representations -- has somewhat distorted my normal relational tendencies, in ways both good and bad. I've spent the last five years debating people on the internet, responding to them as lines of text, abstractions, rather than embodied people who "would think the way they do, considering the way they look".

Now, this obviously relates to some huge issues. Does Justice wear a blindfold? Why? Should I "turn a blind eye" to someone's particularities, or "make allowances" for them? Should I treat everybody the same or treat everyone as they individually deserve? Should I judge before I speak or after I hear the response? Should you judge a book by the cover, or should you judge a cover by the book? Was Oscar Wilde right to say that "Only the superficial fail to judge on appearances"? And in a world where we talk to people based on texture, feeling, emotion, the specifics of our connection rather than objective, textual, rational criteria like "being right", what is "talking" like? Isn't it more like a "shout out"?

Should I feel guilty that I judge people based on visual-textural cues? Isn't that in fact crucial to my personal skills, a way to filter likely friends from likely enemies, a way to establish longterm connections which won't dissolve into inevitable hostility sooner or later? Should my mind be so open that, as Howard Devoto put it, "anything could crawl right in"? What if first impressions, visual impressions, were mostly right? What if one of life's big lessons turned out to be "Trust your instincts, trust your first impressions, trust your emotions rather than suspending judgement and trying to come to some reasonable, reasoned assessment!" And why is it seen as one of the virtues of language that it gives us so few clues about the things it describes? Are details supposed to bias us? Should someone's smell, or the specificities of their face, be excluded from the court, but their words be deemed worthy of judgement? Why?

Do you find yourself thinking "You would think that way, looking like that!" in real life, but thinking "Why on earth do you think that way, let me try to your mind!" when interacting with exactly the same person on the internet? Is it a waste of time arguing with someone who smells? If there was a way to see, taste, hear and smell people on the internet, would your debating style change? Is it only the lack of 90% of the relevant information about a person that makes you debate them?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:16 (twenty-one years ago)

MOMUS WHAT DO I LOOK LIKE

TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)

momus - wot don't *i* look like??

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus it's "Chevy".

The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's what you look like, TOMBOT:

No, I'm kidding. I've seen photos of you on ILX's very useful photo threads. But what do those photo threads do to our debates on other threads? How do they change the way we relate in debate? Is a debate in which all our posts have passport-style photos next to them feel very different from a debate where we're all just lines of text on a white page?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

How would people feel about an upgrade to ILX's software which allowed them to post with little avatar photos? What you gain in specificity you lose in universality, right?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I do this all the time with people, I feel like I can tell just from looking at a face whether a person is going to be a conservative or not and I often give myself a 95% accuracy rating! I think I started a much simpler thread about this once, about snap judgements of "intelligence" based on the look of a person. It really is all in the eyes.

It's something that by reflex we have to assume is a terrible thing to do, because judging books by covers is always bad, right

TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I personally am not convinced that judging people by appearance is the same as judging books by covers. Think of all the genetic information in a face! Also, a person's inside and outside is much more intimately linked than a book's cover and inside, which are usually the ill-coordinated products of two different people. And actually, I do buy books for their covers, and I think Wilde was right when he said only the superficial don't judge by appearances.

There are two completely different languages running alongside each other, the rational-symbolic language where we all think we share the same terms and can defend our positions the way we would when we play chess, and the visual-associative language. The first is a language of universals, a rational language of thoughts, the second a language of specifics, an emotional language of textures and the feelings they evoke. Now, the internet has so far favoured the first. But as bandwidth increases, it will increasingly favour the second.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha you are also "the ill-coordinated product[s] of two different people" Momus, as are we all (but let that pass!)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

XPOST SNAP!

Also, a person's inside and outside is much more intimately linked than a book's cover and inside, which are usually the ill-coordinated products of two different people

Reading that back, it struck me that every human being is also "the ill-coordinated product of two different people"!

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I am often wrong about how someone thinks or feels by how they look...good thing I was a social worker in three different states! I am also bad at predicting what someone looks like by how he or she writes on the Internet, but I'm usually pleasantly surprised.

Momus, I think you have worked hard to physically resemble the kind of person you want to be, and now you are spot-on. It must be exhausting! Me, I just look like a swollen mashup of Rowan Atkinson and old-school Pee-Wee Herman, except as an ex-jock. I'm not sure if that's how I come across here or not, but I kind of doubt it.

The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, I think you have worked hard to physically resemble the kind of person you want to be, and now you are spot-on. It must be exhausting!

That sounds like that Talking Heads song Seen and Not Seen:

He would see faces in movies, on T.V., in magazines, and in books....
He thought that some of these faces might be right for him....And
through the years, by keeing an ideal facial structure fixed in his
mind....Or somewhere in the back of his mind....That he might, by
force of will, cause his face to approach those of his ideal....The
change would be very subtle....It might take ten years or so....
Gradually his face would change its' shape....A more hooked nose...
Wider, thinner lips....Beady eyes....A larger forehead.
He imagined that this was an ability he shared with most other
people....They had also molded their faced according to some
ideal....Maybe they imagined that their new face would better
suit their personality....Or maybe they imagined that their
personality would be forced to change to fit the new appear-
ance....This is why first impressions are often correct...
Although some people might have made mistakes....They may have
arrived at an appearance that bears no relationship to them....
They may have picked an ideal appearance based on some childish
whim, or momentary impulse....Some may have gotten half-way
there, and then changed their minds.
He wonders if he too might have made a similar mistake.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

my last sentence got chopped because I have real work to do, what I was going to say why does it have to be(feel) so accurate?

I'm not going to go so far as saying Wilde was spot on but I sure as hell know there's not going to be any good wine in a bottle that looks like, well, you know what kinds of bottles I'm talking about, so there's no reason to assume that it isn't a valid judgement?

I tend to think of it as similar to some of (scientifically valid, not new-age) holistic methods employed in anthropological studies - there's nothing that can't be measured, recorded, and analyzed for correlation, and no hypotheses than can be derived from the data are intrinsically evil. When your anthropometrist starts discussing institutionalized eugenics that's a different matter, but really we all perform our own eugenics all the time, when we avoid fucking ugly people.

TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

When I see a girl who's unattractive to me I KNOW she's gotta be terrible in the sack.

TOMBOT, Friday, 25 March 2005 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

THE ELEPHANT MAN TO THREAD!

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

"It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances."

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

History has sort of borne out Wilde's judgement. I mean, nobody now says "Oh yeah, the Elephant Man, really lovely bloke, told a good joke, played an excellent game of chess..."

Momus (Momus), Friday, 25 March 2005 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

justice has a blindfold of gauze.

cozen (Cozen), Friday, 25 March 2005 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

HI guys i do not do this.

it makes me sad that other ppl do, because i am ugly.

jeff bule??, Friday, 25 March 2005 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Let us be the judge of that jeff.

Masked Gazza, Friday, 25 March 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Today I was arguing with someone called Chris on a blog...

You almost lost me with this opening line, but I read through the rest of it anyway.

"Pablo" has some monster earlobes, by the way.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 25 March 2005 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

What if someone consciously and continuously alters their outward appearance to trick others?

Silky Sensor (sexyDancer), Friday, 25 March 2005 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

You should judge people by their appearances or their appearances will judge you. Actyually, what is frightening is the thought that you might think you look all cool but really other people think you look like a prunkel. And then yet anotehr thinks you look hot!

Mike Hanle y (mike), Saturday, 26 March 2005 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

It's hard.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:07 (twenty-one years ago)

To be cruel.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:07 (twenty-one years ago)

There are ugly people... on this very thread!

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Not really.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

But there are no beauties!

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not exactly sure what the question is here. but... i have found judging on first impressions is largely useless. i suppose you need to use it for expedience sake and it helps sometimes, but it's pretty unreliable. i'm just thinking how every crush i had turned to be on someone who was a master of signifiers with nothing underneath and that my real boyfriends had to kind of win me over. instinct is necessary for some things, but too often with people it just tells you 'this person is hot, you want to fuck them' and you read it as 'this person is nice, smart, good, trustworthy' etc.

the tricky thing about the internet, and even more if it goes the way you say, is people can control their 'appearance'. which would only make things more confusing. you are judging people by their ideals and their ability to appear as if they reached them. you can only see people's reactions, their 'energy', how they treat you and others by spending realtime with them.

lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Saturday, 26 March 2005 04:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"Oh yeah, the Elephant Man, really lovely bloke, told a good joke, played an excellent game of chess..."

i thought the conventional wisdom was that he was an extremely sweet and cultured man

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 26 March 2005 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

obviously one needs to make all kinds of judgements (i don't really grasp the meaning--on this thread--of "to judge") on the basis of appearances, all the time. you can't hope to get to know, or even chat with, everyone. But one's appearance contains all sorts of clues, some of them false and some of them true and to differing degrees, of who they are. This may have to do with "how they present themselves" or something more instrinsic, less conscious.

In other words I don't think you can answer Momus's question (it IS a question right?) in the abstract.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 26 March 2005 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

the tricky thing about the internet, and even more if it goes the way you say, is people can control their 'appearance'.

and also in *real life* (whatever that is).

nathalie barefoot in the head (stevie nixed), Saturday, 26 March 2005 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

men are the ones who should be wearing makeup and shaving their legs

Mike Hanle y (mike), Sunday, 27 March 2005 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus,

Its amazing that someone who writes as much as you do either simply can't read or chooses to take fragment quotes out of context. The "it's a fair cop guv'nor" had nothing to do with your GIS picture. In any event, I could care less about how you think I look. Next time you are in town PLMK and you can see for yourself.

Chris In Question, Monday, 28 March 2005 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Chris in question, could you please post a link to a recent picture of yourself.

Affectian (Affectian), Monday, 28 March 2005 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)

nick said: There are two completely different languages running alongside each other, the rational-symbolic language where we all think we share the same terms and can defend our positions the way we would when we play chess, and the visual-associative language. The first is a language of universals, a rational language of thoughts, the second a language of specifics, an emotional language of textures and the feelings they evoke. Now, the internet has so far favoured the first. But as bandwidth increases, it will increasingly favour the second.

and i say: new proverb time! "post-modernists should know better than to not judge a book by its cover"

robert duckworth, Monday, 28 March 2005 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

It's better than the Oscar Wilde one - in which I don't see any great profundity.

Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 28 March 2005 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks, Bob Six! I kind of liked it myself.
http://glitchslaptko.blogspot.com/

Robert Duckworth, Monday, 28 March 2005 10:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, as to the "the ill-coordinated products of two different people" thing, humans are, AT THE MOMENT, this kind of creature, indeed. Thanks to things like cloning and what not, perhaps the Oscar Wilde quote will be relevant AGAIN (but for different reasons) sometime later this century. Who knows.

Robert Duckworth, Monday, 28 March 2005 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Today I was arguing with someone called Chris
I thought this was going to be a meta-thread, which could also have been known as Momus Meets Mato's Mother's Incredibly Stupid Ex-Husband.

Ken L (Ken L), Monday, 28 March 2005 11:17 (twenty-one years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.