Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

from the shitty disrespectful person i could act like in the past, the person that was on a continuum with the franken photo

idk, i don't think denouncing a crime to no effect online takes me any further away from bad things i've done in the past. it feels more honest to admit the similarities rather than stress the difference. the fact that it feels good to morally condemn is a good reason to be wary of it, because it comes from wanting to assert that distance, to say I'm not one of them, protesting too much. the dissonance between how men think and talk about themselves and how they act has been one of the most interesting and serious issues highlighted in some of these cases. I don't think that's unusual really; people don't relate and identify with everything they do equally, they build narratives about themselves and so on, and this seems like a good opportunity to question them rather than reinforce them.

fair enough. i've found all this incredibly useful in terms of analysing my own behaviour and my past behaviour. the rage and outright condemnation i feel and express towards the abuse coming to light is in part a condemnation of the part of me that would have once justified that abuse, or ignored it. it feelsgoodman because i'm recognising, naming and disavowing. not pretending the work is done, it's not an evasion exercise.

xp to Deej: I checked and he kinds of splits the difference, the line is "While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women's experiences" which I guess you could see as an adaptable answer, pushing progressive principles while being open to the possibility that this is a hit.

I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this, and I really think if you overly proclaim your innocence I just don’t trust you

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 6:36 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol what is this

sorry i guess the pile on is over. he does it to himself!!!

it really was something ppl are not raised to think about to the extent that’s now being discussed imo

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, November 23, 2017 7:39 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just one more, amazing

i dont see why that's so 'amazing' or deserving of ridicule.

idk, i don't think denouncing a crime to no effect online takes me any further away from bad things i've done in the past. it feels more honest to admit the similarities rather than stress the difference. the fact that it feels good to morally condemn is a good reason to be wary of it, because it comes from wanting to assert that distance, to say I'm not one of them, protesting too much. the dissonance between how men think and talk about themselves and how they act has been one of the most interesting and serious issues highlighted in some of these cases. I don't think that's unusual really; people don't relate and identify with everything they do equally, they build narratives about themselves and so on, and this seems like a good opportunity to question them rather than reinforce them.

― ogmor, Friday, 24 November 2017 09:23 (seven hours ago) Permalink

o.t.m.

fair enough. i've found all this incredibly useful in terms of analysing my own behaviour and my past behaviour. the rage and outright condemnation i feel and express towards the abuse coming to light is in part a condemnation of the part of me that would have once justified that abuse, or ignored it. it feelsgoodman because i'm recognising, naming and disavowing. not pretending the work is done, it's not an evasion exercise.

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, November 24, 2017 3:57 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i identify w this to an extent too, i certainly dont want to say im against condemnation!

"I don’t think that really has made any men truly grapple w the extent of this" was a reference to i.e. studying bell hooks, the point was the conversation, where it is now, is highlighting ways in which we have historically ignored this conversation, that wasn't an effort at even making some novel point but is almost banally true, & i think the notion has been mentioned in articles ppl have posted in passing

but keep reading me in bad faith for your own entertainment i guess

the dissonance between how men think and talk about themselves and how they act has been one of the most interesting and serious issues highlighted in some of these cases
otm!

sometimes i think pile ons are caused by the dissonance between what a man thinks he is doing and saying and how others interpret those two things

(not always, but in this case that seems to be true -- i don't honestly think deej is doing much more than reflecting on his own complicity in the creation of a pervasive misogynist climate. i think this is good even if it comes out weird. if a man doesn't want to confront his complicity, openly or silently to himself, i think that man is not working hard enough to understand his own role in the patriarchy. this is just my feeling)

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/42680-punishing-predators-will-not-save-us

don't see what in those deej posts was objectionable enough to get trampled underfoot in a #notallmen stampede tbh, LL otm

creation of a pervasive misogynist climate
creation, maintenance, perpetuation of

not like it just popped up recently or anything

I think what I said yesterday was generally along the lines of what deej said but I haven't kept up with the convo 100%.

Uma Thurman on Harvey Weinstein: 'You don't deserve a bullet'

Yes that was good

Also I like to think she’s been in character as The Bride ever since 2003

Also liked Gwyneth's fist-bump emoji in the comments.

The last couple of days I've been reimagining the Bill/Budd scene in Kill Bill 2 as being between QT and Weinstein. "That woman deserves her revenge...and we deserve to die."

I think deej is bringing up important stuff and honestly I think ppl are reacting really strange to it

do all the people who don't believe in the effectiveness of deterrents make an exception for this? the loud desire to ostracise offenders seems of a piece with people's testy reaction to any suggestion that this behaviour is part of a wider culture they're complicit in, reminds me of white outrage over accusations of racism

― ogmor, Friday, November 24, 2017 3:13 AM (eleven hours ago)

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/should-al-franken-resign-is-the-wrong-question

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/42680-punishing-predators-will-not-save-us

― j., Friday, 24 November 2017 17:24

Thanks.

I think deej is bringing up important stuff and honestly I think ppl are reacting really strange to it

― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, November 24, 2017 2:19 PM (two minutes ago)

his point that we are all complicit in the culture that turns a blind eye to this sort of conduct is valid. being deej, he had to make it in an accusatory/inflammatory way -- and preface it by bringing up his single feminist mom, implicitly letting himself off the hook a bit -- so of course people responded accordingly

Treating people who commit sexual violence as outliers, who can simply be ejected from our society, will not unravel the norms, policies and practices that make sexual violence inevitable in this society. Pretending we can effectively address the problem with a smattering of takedowns will actually reinforce those norms, policies and practices.

We aren't hunting for predators in an otherwise pristine forest. The forest itself is on fire. It always has been. And when the predator hunt ends, we'll still be standing in the flames.

I agree with all this! but implementing the really transformative solutions (instituting restorative justice measures, for instance) would require a *literal* revolution. (Which I'm 100% down for but let's be real about what we're talking about.)

Do not at all want to validate deej's persecution complex nor indeed get the thread bogged down even further but that is a supremely bad faith reading of the feminist mom comment (which didn't preface anything, incidentally) - take your point otherwise xp

chief keef *runs and hides*

it may be a less-than-generous reading, but i don't think it's in bad faith. his point seemed to be that our complicity stems in part from not being raised to think about the issues correctly (btw, i had a feminist mom) and not reading enough bell hooks (who btw i have studied). in fairness to deej he did admit that he himself was implicated in this as well, but i don't exactly think it's a mystery why his posts rubbed some the wrong way.

happy to let this die btw sorry

Firing bosses and replacing them with women and maybe the occasional woke guy doesn’t involve civilian hangings or firebombing of courthouses so I still fail to see how a literal revolution is what has to happen.

If you think the issue is simply a matter of who holds the better end of the wildly skewed power imbalances and not the wildly skewed power imbalances *themselves*, sure.

(I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that more female studio heads or US senators whatever would result in a reduction in sexual harassment and assault in those sectors - which is good! - but nothing about how, for example, the courts handle such cases or individuals' lack of power in the workplace to deal with *any* type of abuse by superiors would change.)

Firing bosses and replacing them with women and maybe the occasional woke guy doesn’t involve civilian hangings or firebombing of courthouses

The hitch in this thought is that who will do the firing of the bosses? Because if the answer is "their bosses", then you haven't had your coffee, yet.

Scroll back up to where I asked when the unions are going to take this on the chin. All of the incorporated bodies that are supposed to protect their talent have to answer for this as well, and held accountable by their workers.

chief keef *runs and hides*

Scroll back up to where I asked when the unions are going to take this on the chin. All of the incorporated bodies that are supposed to protect their talent have to answer for this as well, and held accountable by their workers.

Unions only represent about 10% of the US workforce

Nor do they "fire bosses".

well they OUGHTA

1, scroll up, Fisk

2, they definitely used to and still could in those industries that still have unions

Uma Thurman’s “I’m Glad It’s Going Slowly - You Don’t Deserve A Bullet” is named Best New Music pic.twitter.com/1KqRBlZeHm

— PRIESTS🤹🏼‍♀️🤠🐛🐩 (@PRIESTS_TWEET) November 24, 2017

it may be a less-than-generous reading, but i don't think it's in bad faith. his point seemed to be that our complicity stems in part from not being raised to think about the issues correctly (btw, i had a feminist mom) and not reading enough bell hooks (who btw i have studied). in fairness to deej he did admit that he himself was implicated in this as well, but i don't exactly think it's a mystery why his posts rubbed some the wrong way.

happy to let this die btw sorry

― k3vin k., Friday, November 24, 2017 2:36 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i was making the opposite point you dumb idiot: that having a feminist mom & having read a lot of bell hooks explicitly *does not* let men off the hook

why would i have a persecution complex when this kind of stuff gets intentionally misread every time i post abt a controversial topic?

agree i presented it in an inflammatory way, disagree that this means it was useless, although id rather these things not become referendums on myself sure

anyway the masha gessen piece is good

it's "interesting" that now a leftish former satirist and good-guy politician is in the frame that men need to rethink the volume of their chastisement

Rephrase

just watch your fucking tone, that goes for me too obv

There are times where allegations are unfounded but this is not one of those times. And I’ve seen the proof. Just because your text messages were not published, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Tread lightly. https://t.co/HL2uN02WcR

— om (@oliviamunn) November 25, 2017

it's "interesting" that now a leftish former satirist and good-guy politician is in the frame that men need to rethink the volume of their chastisement

its true that after years of enthusiastically decrying the moral corruption of others on ilx the welfare of this politician I've never heard of made me very hastily reverse my feelings on the matter

#notallilx0rs

stop shitting the thread up with your wounded snark you self-exculpatory weasel shite

ilx got good again

i was making the opposite point you dumb idiot