This is the thread for the Liverpool/AC Milan Champions League final

Wow, that was a quick score!

(xpost talking about when Rino Gattuso was a teenager at Rangers before anyone realised he was really good)

Is anyone else feeling as cynical as I am about Kewell? No interest all season, then a fine recovery for this final, then they go behind and he's off again...

Looking that up made me miss Shevchenko's disallowed effort. I hope you appreciate it

Oh well, at least Liverpudlians are saved from the sight of Dave B streaking.

Hey!

Not surprisingly, I'm exactly the opposite. Cisse off the bench to net a 77th minute winner. (0-3 by halftime, Kewell booed off).
-- Michael Jones

It was me. I also predicted Kewell would be booed off. I think I missed a consonant.

I ain't crowin' yet.

(xpost!)

This could go on all day, anyhow.

what part of not acheiving the set criteria rules Liverpool out of this scenario?

goodnight ILe

Liverpool fulfil the qualification criteria in one sense - they won the thing. They are prevented from taking their place as title holders by dint of being from a nation with four places already, none of which they filled domestically. There is absolutely no problem with them being in the 05/06 CL as UEFA's Champion Team or whatever and not as part of England's allocation. It doesn't prevent anyone else competing, it doesn't disadvantage anyone's qualification. The ONLY ISSUE is the precedent set in 2000 with Reals Madrid and Zaragoza. To change the rule they must ignore their precedent.

I seem to be repeating myself on this thread. I'll shut up now.

1) The second stage knockout involves 16 teams. UEFA have a rule which says that the 8 group winners (the form teams) shouldn't play each other yet (a form of secondary seeding) AND that clubs from the same country can't play each other yet. If a country has 5 teams, the maths of the draw become harder and it becomes less a draw than the outcome of an increasingly restricted set of possibilities.

2) There's already a problem with bias towards the big five countries; 4 was a cap on it, but to remove the cap would increase the disparity of places between differing countries, to the overall detriment of the competition and to the development of European football. % clubs increases the possibility that the co-efficient values for the English clubs increase further, cementing their place at the top.

I'd change the rule to say that in exceptional circumstances, should the holders not be placed through other emans, they shall be re-entered as the UEFA champion, and any victories they achieve shall not count towards the co-efficient.

Personally, I'm fucking bored with the whole thing. Lennart Johannsen should toss a bloody coin and have done with it.

PS - as as-yet uncommented on aspect of this is that Man City could qualify for the UEFA cup after all.

How would Man City benefit?

Man City would presumably get the extra English place freed by Liverpool not needing their UEFA cup slot any more by being the next in line in terms of league places.

(xpost)

The limit of our European adventures should be floodlit friendlies against Honved.

I still fail to see where Bolton fit into all of this, other than the fact Gareth wants to see Diouf get himself sent off on a bigger stage. And I don't see anyone in Riga volunteering to give up their place just because English teams have more money/clout. Or does their opinion not matter?

As you may have noticed, I'm not English, and the nationalities of the teams involved doesn't matter to me. All that bothers me is why this couldn't have applied to Zaragoza, and what makes Liverpool so special that the precedent already set can be re-appraised and a new precedent set?

Can I reiterate that I hate that all this is going on and detracting from what was a very enjoyable final?

!! How did they manage that?

Some (fan-biased) explanation here - I was actually looking for their fixture list that season.

oi!

Eleventh, eh? I knew it was bad, but blimey. The only signing that summer was Andy Blair from Coventry, probably because his bus pass would still be valid. Maybe it was his fault.

It is funny how Chris and Vicky are completely indistinguishable unless labelled correctly.

See also: Everton's inglorious defence of their league title in 70-71. "Team of the 70s" we were. Jesus.

Liverpool winning the cup but not qualifying for next year through the normal channels has highlighted a situation that a lot of people think is wrong and should be put right. Rules are not infallible, they have to be able to change.

In my opinion the rules should have been changed for Zaragoza. We don't know what fuss was kicked up in Spain at the time, but we do know that the spanish football association decided that they would not support Zaragoza's appeal to be allowed to play. Liverpool have the English FA kicking up a fuss, which has got this situation a wider audience.

So, in conclusion, there are people who think that rules should be open to change, and those who think rules are set in stone and that's that. And there are those who think that this situation warrants a change in the rules, and those who think that it doesn't. (completely sidestepping whether or not there is a vague section of the rules that allows Liverpool into the competition as UEFA's champions)

Did you look that up, Michael, or is that the kind of thing that is stored in your BRANE?

I see Preston North End were unlucky. Mind you, at least now I know what claret and blue ribbons and confetti look like being pumped out of those sodding celebration machines.

-- Matt DC

a parody of both ronan and markelby!

Or another group which think that the rules this year should stand, and the inconsistencies etc that this episode identifies should be the springboard to change.

To do nothing owuld be the wrong thing. To change things after the fact would be equally the wrong thing. If the price of that is that this year, Liverpool don't get to defend the thing, then so be it. They can't exactly say that, European Cup in hand, they've been shafted.

if the rules need changing, they should change next year and then everyone will have a fair playing ground, knowing the rules from the start, without the goalposts moving AFTER the whole thing.

If you're going to change the rules, then, if you can make a quick decision as to how you're going to do it, why not apply it now and let Liverpool play next year? Why would be changing the rules now be the wrong thing? As to being 'after the fact', when would 'before the fact' have been? Before the start of the season? when this scenario started becoming possible?

But equally the Liverpool fans here need to accept that the rules are perfectly clear and they unequivocally state that Liverpool have not qualified, so maybe a bit of humility and diplomacy would be more appropriate than loudly-voiced persecution complexes.

I'd like to see UEFA commemorate the 20th anniversary of Heysel with another six-year ban for the Reds but you don't always get what you want, y'know?

To change the rules now would correct an injustice - for sure. But it would open a wider injustice - that the rules could be changed mid-stream if you shouted loud enough. I think that's an appaling precendent, so when judging two bad things - injustice to Liverpool vs a very bad precedent being set, I'll accept the former over the latter.

as for gareth, I think you are just sore that there might be a fair way to sort this out and hence the narrative is not so dramatic.

'Justice' could be done without any rule change, of course - UEFA could lean on the FA to deselect Everton. I'm primed for the worst.

this would be a bigger injustice than Liverpool not getting into the tournament next year, without a doubt, because you already had the place given to you by the FA

Have we not established that there can be a rule change right now that does not create another victim?

From the Guardian:
A Uefa source said Liverpool would not be handed direct entry, but would probably have to play one qualifying round despite being champions. The sixteenth and final guaranteed place among the 32 teams who contest the group stage would go to Fenerbahçe as champions of Turkey, which as the tenth strongest country in Uefa is due one direct entrant.

Which is wrong as the 10th nation do NOT automatically get a group stage berth - they only do if a place becomes vacant cos the title holders have qualified via league position already. As Chris/Vicky has pointed out, playing a Qr3 match so close to the Super Cup final is impossible.

PJM: "Fancy men"! Fantastic. Shankly's phrase, of course.

And they keep showing up to FAPs without name badges too. I can't cope.