"curing" homosexuality: classic/dud?

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obviously being tongue-in-cheek, it's not classic by any stretch of the imagination. i ask because my boyfriend was just given an ultimatum by his parents that he has two days to consider undergoing "therapy" to relieve himself of his homosexuality or else they'll disown him.

i mean, to put it in context a bit, ever since he was "outed" by someone (we don't know who) almost a year ago, his mother has threatened disowning him about once every three weeks, but he's never threatened him quite like this before, with a time limit and everything. at any rate, it seems clear that she's a lost cause and will never accept his gayness as a normal condition and thinks that "gay therapy" is a totally viable option.

so i have to wonder: what are the "cures" for homosexuality as NARTH et al would have you believe they are? surely electro-shock is considered invalid and unethical these days? i mean, it just seems obvious to me that these doctors are facing a sisyphean task if they believe it's possible to rid people of a natural inclination, and one which hasn't been considered an abnormality since 1973 by the APA...

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

england is so weird

charltonlido (gareth), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

surely electro-shock is considered invalid and unethical these days?

Negative. My neighbor just recently underwent (voluntary!) electro-shock therapy for depression.

As far as the question itself is concerned: I've never really understood the need to peg homosexuality as categorically "nature" or "nurture." Surely there are some people who are homosexual and that's just the way it is and there are others that are trying it out or have convinced themselves for whatever reason that it's something they want to be.

giboyeux (skowly), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

It sounds to me like his parents are wealthy. The wealthy are prone to believe that the threat of cutting their children off from their wealth is an infallible weapon to make them do whatever they demand.

As for what the usual "cure" consists of, I believe it is mostly a matter of placing intense social pressure upon the victim to cease all homosexual activity, to repress all homoerotic thoughts and to feel intensely uncomfortable when he fails to conform to their demands. God's wrath and God's love are usually invoked, too.

Ever known a comepletely neurotic dog?

Aimless (Aimless), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

puke serum and being forced to watch gay porn a clockwork orange style? i cant even imagine what they really do.

sunny successor (katharine), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I imaging the "cure" would probably be something like this:

haha xpost

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't disagree with you that it's not going to work. Will take issue with the rhetoric, however. What the APA considers "normal" or "abnormal" is irrelevant. A convention of psychologists is the last place you should go to determine what "normal" is. Those people are insane.

Electro-shock therapy has had a resurgence (as it were) in popularity or respectability esp. for treating manic-depression and related conditions. Nowadays, it's administered under anesthesia, however. But not useful, I would think, for re-aligning sexual orientation.

Although we're hardly there now, I wouldn't be surprised that hormonal or biochemical "therapy" might be used to realign sexual orientation at some point in the near future, but such a procedure might work in either direction, I can imagine, if it were to work at all. A pill to "go gay" would be as likely as one to "go straight".

Probbably get in trouble here, but I'll propose that "therapy" may be more successful "converting" lesbians than gay men. Some psychotherapists see the etiology, for lack of a better word, of lesbianism as quite different than male homosexuality. Frequently a response to sexual violence or abuse by men. Leading to a rejection of women rather than an innate attraction to women. Haven't seen any empirical data on this, however. Anecdotally, it seems to make sense. I've definitely noticed an animosity towards men on the part of lesbians. The analogous response from gay men toward women is either fear or a kind of obliviousness or ignorance. But usually not hatred. It's interesting. The politics inherent in these issues usually prevents a real discussion however.

It's obv. too bad that your friend's mother is insistent on 'disowning' him. The concept of disowning a child is somewhat old-fashioned too, unless there's a lot of money involved, I suppose. Rejecting him is more like it. Maybe time will help. While it's hurtful, of course, to be rejected by a parent, it isn't necessarily surprising. Shock or outrage on your part is the wrong response too. People's thinking changes slowly.

justSaying, Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

xposts, sorry. Also, "Leading to a rejection of men"

justSaying, Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

For therapy read brainwashing. "Curing" religion: classic or dud?

Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I think he should disown the parents first -- "you can't fire me, I quit." JustSaying, I think your last two sentences are crap. (The rest of it reminded me of Delany's Trouble on Triton.)

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

(beaucoup d'xpost)

well, okay, it's not "entirely" natural, one's environment plays a role in sexual development too, i'm not denying that, but as we're no longer in a highly malleable stage of human development (i turn 21 this year, he turns 20), and neither of us identifies as bisexual or "experimenting," it seems like any attempt, conscious or otherwise, to repress his homosexual urges would just be for nought.

also, we're both in college and he has only a year until he graduates so the idea that she can cut off his tuition carries a significant bit of weight, even if it's just an empty threat that she won't follow through.

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

his mother is on record as saying that she doesn't agree with the APA either, they're too "politically motivated" or something

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Shock and outrage, while rather natural and to-be-expected under the circumstances, would not be a fruitful long-term position. In time, let it decay into sadness, which is less toxic.

Aimless (Aimless), Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Rereading last two sentences...

Well, I think they may be a bit detached and clinical, but not crap. From the boyfriend's perspective, to be outraged that his inlaws don't accept their son is not a response that's going to change their minds. That's what I mean. I don't suggest that everyone isn't hurt in the process. Certainly the parents' attitude isn't going to change because the boyfriend tries to convince them that they're luddites. If it changes, it's going to be because they miss their son and want him to be part of their lives. That may not happen overnight. That's all I'm saying.

justSaying, Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

also i didn't mean to come off as THE TRAVESTY OF IT ALL HOW DARE SHE THINK THIS!!! i'm not terribly surprised at any of this, but i just want to know if this has ever actually worked on anyone

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Grrr... okay, but I'd have to have 30 minutes with a room full of furniture to bust up. (xpost to Aimless, but good enough as a response to JustSaying too.)

Rock Hardy (Rock Hardy), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

(i've never actually met his parents, fwiw, and haven't talked to them or tried to change their mind about any of this)

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

never heard of it working. Don't mean to suggest that you're stamping around in all caps, by the way, joseph. But that if you're considering it, I'd advise against!

justSaying, Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

the idea that she can cut off his tuition carries a significant bit of weight, even if it's just an empty threat

Your friend had better not count on the lack of follow-through. People who feel desperate do desperate things and it sounds as if his mother feels desperate to avert his homosexuality from herself and her future. She is panicked about facing this. He needs to get a grip on his own options, regardless of what she does, so the panic won't drag him under, too. Sorry about that.

Aimless (Aimless), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm confident that he is, despite the fact that she picked a bad time to snap at him: it's a long weekend so our school's financial aid dept., LGBT office, etc. are closed.

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

never heard of it working.

Depends on who you ask. Teh fundies are fully committed to curing homos.

giboyeux (skowly), Saturday, 28 May 2005 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Just to be clear, no one in this thread is under the impression that these "clinics" are run by psychologists, right?

L'Histoire d'Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Frequently a response to sexual violence or abuse by men. Leading to a rejection of women rather than an innate attraction to women. Haven't seen any empirical data on this, however...

This seems to be radically reductive in general. Where in this theory can it be accounted for the anecdotal fact that many gay men have far more female friends than male friends, for instance?

L'Histoire d'Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"anecdotally, it seems to make sense"

j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

anecdotally, I think it's pure crap. though crap without malice, so I can shrug it off.

L'Histoire d'Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe "crap" is a bit harsh. maybe getting into the discussion is useless.

There's a documentary called One Nation Under God that deals with these clinics. IIRC, porn actually does play a part in the healing process.

L'Histoire d'Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I realize it's radically reductive, and I don't have any data. I said that. I think that gay men's likelihood to have female friends fits the model, actually. But again, I don't know, I'm not necessarily advocating this view, but I have heard it from people who know more about it than I do.

Maybe there's a different way to approach it:

Does it necessarily follow that male sexual orientation and female sexual orientation necessarily evolve the way they do for the same reasons? Especially for those sub-segments of the population that are minority components, i.e. gay men and lesbians?

By the way, this is an attempt to frame what I think is an interesting question in a non-judgmental way. Not that humans can ever escape their contexts. Not completely, anyway.

justSaying, Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

ilx homophobia's gone beyond tossing 'faggot' around loosely right into 'gays = pedophiles' lately. ye gods.

joseph depending on how small a campus you're on, how many people yall know there that communicate with his parents, etc., and also depending on just what the therapy entails (ie. is it just gonna be an insulting pain in the ass - sermon/porn/sermon/porn/sermon?), i'd advise he go thru the therapy, or agree to, keep it on the downlow for awhile, and then 'relapse' (like the overwhelming majority of 'cured' homosexuals do) and cut the apron strings as soon as it's feasible. that someone outed him is troubling though - you gotta find out who this is, maybe have him pretend he wants to 'thank' them for 'saving' his soul, etc.

j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

Yes, I realize that it wasn't meant to be intentionally reductive. So I apologize for firing up about it, especially when it is an interesting topic that has usually been framed in a polarizing manner.

In any case, the part I italicized was probably the most questionable section, to me: a gay man who was never abused as a child. I cringe at it if only because it has the (probably unintended) alternate supposition: abuse obviously an unfortunate activity most people would want to curb, homosexuality an unfortunate activity in some people's estimation, ergo ending one because one wished to end the other.

L'Histoire d'Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 28 May 2005 18:58 (twenty-one years ago)

the dilemma basically boils down to:

a) agree to the therapy, go through what may be a demeaning/traumatic experience, but remain financially secure and still in the care/vicinity of parents until school is finished, at which point he can vamoose

vs.

b) refuse the therapy, get kicked out, rally like a motherfucker for financial aid services (who may be kind to him given the situation), work a TON to get money for an apartment/other expenses, but ultimately escape a generally unsupportive and frustrating home environment even sooner, which is a good thing.

so both have desirable and not-so-desirable elements, but it's a matter of which one will be less...soul-crushing in the long run, i guess.

as for the informer, he has an idea who it was, but hasn't confronted him on the matter (someone he doesn't like and with whom he doesn't have much contact anyway). i don't really know what good it would do at this point, anyway.

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I dunno, I think going through "gay therapy" would be hi-larious, if its anything like "but i'm a cheerleader". even if its not, i still think it would be a hoot and well worth it just to have a few stories to tell - and if it means not getting kicked out and dropping out of college, even doubly so.

phil-two (phil-two), Saturday, 28 May 2005 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Couldn't it be classic if someone didn't want to be, but was, homosexual and was actually "cured" of being a homosexual-- I mean completely "cured," not just repressed? Don't ask me how this would be done, but dog gone it, I'm going to venture out on a limb and say that would be classic! In fact, if a method was ever created to do such a thing, I bet at least some closeted homosexuals would take advantage of it and perhaps it would even become a booming business!

I know, that sounds not PC, but it really is PC.

In fact, to make sure it _is_ PC, I'm going to add that it would be DUD if it created a homo-bashing backlash where queer baiters would complain that "you don't have to be gay if you don't want to."

Okay, since this backlash would definitely happen, then I have to change my answer to all around DUD.

Unfortunate Prankster (Unfortunate Prankster), Saturday, 28 May 2005 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i still think it would be a hoot and well worth it just to have a few stories to tell

he's claimed that if he does go through with it (which doesn't seem too likely) that he'd blog the experience.

joseph (joseph), Saturday, 28 May 2005 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I seem to recall that one of our local weeklies had a reporter go through this and write an article about it, but I might be misremembering.

Casuistry (Chris P), Saturday, 28 May 2005 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing about exodus, etc is that they are really modern, when you start talking about sex as power, or starting talking about how sexuality cchanges and mutates depending on time and place, or talk about how there are no homosexual people, only homosexual acts, or that sexuality between consenting adults is a morally neautral--namely if you move from an essentalist view, then you disarm them

anthony easton (anthony), Saturday, 28 May 2005 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Personally, I think you should not underestimate the possibilities for self-inflicted degradation and extreme humiliation inherent in voluntarily repudiating your core beliefs about yourself and the world.

Aimless (Aimless), Sunday, 29 May 2005 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

According to the recent research from Sweden in the media earlier this month.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/05/09/pheromones.study.reut/
There are different unconscious ways that brains of gay men respond. This means that "curing" homosexuality would have to include going against one's apparent natural inclination. His mother saying things like "homosexuality is unnatural and immoral." would seem especially bad to him, because of how natural homosexuality feels. I think there are some people who have been "cured" of homosexuality, but I think it probably involves active repression and rejection of current beliefs. But the stopping of smoking, drinking or heterosexuality would involve similar types of repression and rejection.

Anthony is right. Claiming it as relative to different situations and morally natural would legitimize it more, but where are those claims based? Most of the people opposed to homosexuality base their claims in absolutism of morality.

A Nairn (moretap), Sunday, 29 May 2005 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

What if he starts crying everytime you try to have sex with him?

L'Histoire d'Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 29 May 2005 04:42 (twenty-one years ago)

three weeks pass...
he's going through with the therapy. he has no choice, really: it's do it or be homeless/school-less.

...is it wrong that i feel a little scared? i mean, my bullshit detector is going through the roof but on another, more emotional level i'm just really unsettled by the prospect of him seeing this guy (which again, isn't really his choice). i've looked up the doctor he's supposed to be seeing and i haven't seen his name tied in with any nebulous practices (yet), but i can't shake the feeling that there's going to be very unpleasant side effects from all of this...

joseph (joseph), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:10 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry to hear it. really, nothing good can come of it. at best, he's merely delaying the inevitable falling-out with his parents.

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

How serious are you? How much do your parents love him?

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:14 (twenty-one years ago)

i still think he should write a book about it. tell him not to sign any non-disclosure agreements!

phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

july 4th marks one year. my parents have only seen him maybe twice, though i believe they like him (might as well come clean here - i'm not entirely out to my parents, or at least i've never confirmed their suspicions for them, assuming they have any). if the insinuation is that i should see whether he could shack up with me for awhile...nice idea, but i don't know if it'd pan out. plus he's in boston and has a job there. i'm in new jersey.

joseph (joseph), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm... I'm on the flip side of this coin. I'm out to my parents (though not my grandparents, et al), but haven't had to worry about them reacting to me having a serious relationship as of yet.

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I was sort of cured of homosexuality but I don't think it ever goes away. My parents threatened to disown me, so I got married and moved on as well as I could. I'm not happy though.

Making off like a lucky bandit / Kate (papa november), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

This oh so human trait where we think that if we just stick to our guns, facts be damned, we can always change things to our perfect liking can be such a horid destroyer of souls. A parent has a duty to form their child but that essential function cannot be fulfilled without some knowledge of who their child really is, what his natural talents, inclinations and proclivities are. Anybody who prefers forcing anything on their children to nurturing what is already there is not someone, and I mean no offense to Joesph's friend's parents particularly, I would much care to know, socialize with or do business with. If they lack that elemental respect for their own progeny, how could I ever trust them to be humane with me?

M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Why is homosexuality a natural talent, inclination or proclivity? And why does a person have to follow what seems natural to them?

A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahahahahaha "talent"!

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

"I can tapdance, play the piano and be gay."

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

and Nairn's here, everybody! Thank you, good night!

kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Have it your way, Nairn. What we really need is a lot of uptight people crammed arbitrarily into unsuitable lifestyles by meddlesome, know-it-all fuckers who couldn't care less if they add to the sum total of human misery and pain as long as they find a way to tell other people what's wrong with them and how to live their lives.

M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Why is christianity a natural talent, inclination or proclivity? And why does a person have to follow what seems natural to them?

Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(sorry, I mean come on...)

Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

i have the sneaking suspicion that these "therapies" can actually be damaging and traumatizing, though joseph i hope for your boyfriend's sake this isn't the case.

i also doubt that any doctor truly worth his salt would contibute their knowledge and expertise to such therapies. they are probably the same sort of doctors that attested to terry schaivo's being "responsive" (at jeb bush's request) without actually visiting her in the hospital, i.e. those who have put their medical degree entirely in the service of ideological war.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 22:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Have it your way, Nairn.

What do you mean my way? I'm just trying to question what you are presenting as absolutes. (which is always a good thing to do)

I mean I'm just saying that I think there are many things that seem natural, that people shouldn't follow, and also there are many things that seem unnatural that would be good to follow.


A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

this really, really sucks. best wishes, joseph.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

tell us more about these "things", nairn, and why they should or should not be followed.

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

A Nairn, go off and have some dirty, unnatural anal sex, and when you come back bring pie.

edward o (edwardo), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 04:02 (twenty-one years ago)

this really, really sucks. best wishes, joseph.

yeah, sorry to have come off as so flippant. really hope things end up OK for you guys

phil-two (phil-two), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Your boyfriend's parents don't love him properly. They should be ashamed of who they are.

Love him, take care.

estela (estela), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 04:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I totally missed this from the first post today(/yesterday):

i haven't seen his name tied in with any nebulous practices (yet)

... you mean aside from what your boyfriend is about to subject himself to?

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 04:32 (twenty-one years ago)

nebulous practices = electroshock, things of that nature

joseph (joseph), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 04:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Report this doctor to whatever medical ethics commission you guys have over there. If he is a doctor, he ought to be struck off.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:01 (twenty-one years ago)

nothing i've read about him suggests that this is his method, though (you can try googling him, there seems to be quite a bit written by/about him: ur13l m35h0ul4m)

oh, and thanks for the kind words, guys. not knowing what to expect is the worst part, but i'm trying to put as much of a happy face on this as possible, if it means he'll be financially secure for just as long as he needs to be

joseph (joseph), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:12 (twenty-one years ago)

if it means he'll be financially secure for just as long as he needs to be

Not to turn your frown right-side up, but if his parents are nasty enough to put him through this treatment, they're not going to be satisfied (and his financial outlook will never be "secure") until he proves his neo-heterosexuality to them. Meaning, they're not going to put up with anything less than a swift engagement... to a girl...

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah i probably shouldn't speak too soon. he'll probably have to flex his acting muscle in-between his job and studying for the MCATs.

joseph (joseph), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I smell a sitcom pitch waiting to be developed.

"He's a well-adjusted gay male in the prime of his life, his boyfriend is trying to convince his rich parents that he's in love with the hot girl next door. Tune in this fall..."

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:21 (twenty-one years ago)

will and graceless

joseph (joseph), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Desperate Heirs

Eric H: not a troll, with one exception (Eric H.), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"I like to pitch it as Soul Man, only updated with the burning issues of today... and without Radon Chong."

kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i want the hot girl next door to be played by ludivine sagnier

joseph (joseph), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 05:30 (twenty-one years ago)

"Radon"!

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 06:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Recently, in Spain:

(In short, right wing politician claims to be able to cure homosexuality in three years (individual cases, obviously, not the whole epidemic).)

http://www.elpais.es/articulo.html?d_date=&xref=20050620elpepusoc_3&type=Tes&anchor=elpporsoc

I was interested to see that it was only fifteen years ago that the World Health Organisation took homosexuality off its list of illnesses.

Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 06:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Joseph, I'd really like to read your partner's blog about this. Please put the url on here when he starts it.

Affectian (Affectian), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

He who pays the piper calls the tune. So long as your friend allows his parents to use their money as bait, he is on the hook. He's going to have to face up to the idea of a future without the soft cushion of parental money or else a future of being bullied by them at every turn.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

You could get Radon's younger sister Argon.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 15:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Robert Smith would not add anything of value to homosexuality.

Leon C. (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I knew someone who named their son Argon.

Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 15:09 (twenty-one years ago)

three weeks pass...
I know there's a thread about this thing specifically but I can't find it. It's about that kid who wrote in his blog about his parents sending him to gay camp. from new york times.


July 17, 2005
Gay Teenager Stirs a Storm
By ALEX WILLIAMS

MEMPHIS

IT was the sort of confession that a decade ago might have been scribbled in a teenager's diary, then quietly tucked away in a drawer: "Somewhat recently," wrote a boy who identified himself only as Zach, 16, from Tennessee, on his personal Web page, "I told my parents I was gay." He noted, "This didn't go over very well," and "They tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me, and they 'raised me wrong.' "

But what grabbed the attention of Zach's friends and subsequently of both gay activists and fundamentalist Christians around the world who came across the entry, made on May 29, was not the intimacy of the confession. Teenagers have been outing themselves online for years, and many of Zach's friends already knew he was gay. It was another sentence in the Web log: "Today, my mother, father and I had a very long 'talk' in my room, where they let me know I am to apply for a fundamentalist Christian program for gays."

"It's like boot camp," Zach added in a dispatch the next day. "If I do come out straight, I'll be so mentally unstable and depressed it won't matter."

The camp in question, Refuge, is a youth program of Love in Action International, a group in Memphis that runs a religion-based program intended to change the sexual orientation of gay men and women. Often called reparative or conversion therapy, such programs took hold in fundamentalist Christian circles in the 1970's, when mainstream psychiatric organizations overturned previous designations of homosexuality as a mental disorder, and gained ground rapidly from the late 90's. Programs like Love in Action have always been controversial, but Zach's blog entries have brought wide attention to a less-known aspect of them, their application to teenagers.

Although Zach wrote only a handful of entries about the Refuge program, all posted before he arrived there in the Memphis suburbs on June 6, his words have been forwarded on the Internet over and over, inspiring online debates, news articles, sidewalk protests and an investigation into Love in Action by the Tennessee Department of Children's Services in response to a child abuse allegation. The investigation was dropped when the allegation proved unfounded, a spokeswoman for the agency said.

To some, Zach, whose family name is not disclosed on his blog and has not appeared in news accounts, is the embodiment of gay adolescent vulnerability, pulled away from friends who accepted him by adults who do not. To others he is a boy whose confused and formative sexual identity is being exploited by gay political activists.

In his last blog entry before beginning the program, at 2:33 a.m. on June 4, Zach wrote, "I pray this blows over," adding that if his parents caught him online he'd be in trouble. He described arguments he had been having with his parents, his mother in particular. "I can't take this," his post reads. "No one can. I'm not a suicidal person. I think it's stupid, really. But I can't help it - no I'm not going to commit suicide - all I can think about is killing my mother and myself. It's so horrible."

The Rev. John J. Smid, the executive director of Love in Action, declined to discuss the details of Zach's experience, citing the program's confidentiality rules. In an interview early this month at his headquarters, a weathered 1960's A-frame building, which was until recently a vacant Episcopal Church, Mr. Smid explained that teenage participants in Refuge are forbidden to speak with anyone the program does not approve of. Requests made through Mr. Smid to interview Zach's parents were declined.

Founded in California in 1973, Love in Action moved to Memphis 11 years ago. It is one of 120 programs nationwide listed by Exodus International, which bills itself as the largest information and referral network for what is known among fundamentalist Christians as the "ex-gay" movement. In 2003 Love in Action introduced the first structured program specifically for teenagers, 24 of whom have participated, Mr. Smid said. The initial two weeks costs $2,000, and many participants stay six weeks more, as Zach has.

The goal of the program, said Mr. Smid, who said he was once gay but now renounces homosexual behavior, is not necessarily to turn gays into practicing heterosexuals, but to "put guardrails" on their sexual impulses.

"In my life I've been out of homosexuality for over 20 years, and for me it's really a nonissue," Mr. Smid said.

"I may see a man and say, he's handsome, he's attractive, and it might touch a part of me that is different from someone else," he said. "But it's really not an issue. Gosh, I've been married for 16 years and faithful in my marriage in every respect. I mean I don't think I could white-knuckle this ride for that long."

Mr. Smid first learned that one of his teenage participants was a cause célèbre when protesters appeared outside his headquarters for several days in early June, carrying signs saying, "This is child abuse" and "Jesus is no excuse for hate."

He was bombarded by phone calls from reporters, he said, as well as by 100 e-mail messages a day from as far as Norway. Zach's writings, which appeared on his page on www.MySpace.com, were publicized by one of his online acquaintances, E. J. Friedman, a Memphis musician and writer, who read Zach's May 29 blog entry, "The World Coming to an Abrupt - Stop."

Mr. Friedman, 35, was disturbed by what he read and fired off an instant message. "I said: 'You should run away from home. There are people who will help you,' " Mr. Friedman recalled. "He said: 'I can't do that. I want to have my childhood. If this is what I have to go through to have it, then I will.' "

Mr. Friedman posted an angry message about Zach's impending stay at Refuge on his own blog. Mr. Friedman's friends picked up on the story and started spreading it on blogs of their own. Soon a local filmmaker, Morgan Jon Fox, who had met Zach through mutual acquaintances, joined with others to start a group called Queer Action Coalition, which organized the protests at Love in Action.

"We wanted to show support," said Mr. Fox, 26, who directed a fictional film about gay teenagers in 2003, shot at White Station High School in Memphis, where Zach is a student. "Then it kind of blew up."

Links to Zach's site bounced around the country. Mr. Friedman's Web page had so much traffic, "it blew my bandwidth," he said. Mr. Smid, too, was inundated with Internet traffic, much of it outraged at the attempts to change Zach's sexual orientation.

"All of a sudden, 80,000 Internet hits later on our Web site, the world has decided that he should be freed," Mr. Smid said. "Maybe he didn't ask for this. Maybe he doesn't really have the personality that really is going to be able to deal with this. And they talk about our 'abuse' of him."

The program at Love in Action has parallels to 12-step recovery programs. Participants, referred to as clients, study the Bible, meet with counselors and keep a "moral inventory," a journal in which they detail their struggle with same-sex temptation over the years, which they read at emotionally raw group meetings, former clients say.

Excessive jewelry or stylish clothing from labels like Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger are forbidden, and so is watching television, listening to secular music (even Bach) and reading unapproved books or magazines.

"It's like checking into prison," said Brandon Tidwell, 29, who completed the adult program in 2002 but eventually rejected its teachings, reconciling his Christian beliefs with being gay.

Physical contact among clients other than a handshake is forbidden, and so is "campy" talk or behavior, according to program rules that Zach posted on his blog before he began at Refuge. Occasionally, recalled Jeff Harwood, 41, a Love in Action graduate who still considers himself gay, some participants would mock the mandatory football games.

"You could get away with maybe one limp-wristed pass before another client would catch you," he said, seated on a tattered sofa in a funky cafe called Java Cabana in the trendy midtown district of Memphis.

Because teenagers, unlike adult clients, return home at night, parents are asked to help keep them away from television and, more important, a computer. Zach has not updated his blog since entering the program.

For Mr. Smid and his supporters, offering Love in Action to teenagers is vital to combat what they see as a growing tolerance of homosexuality among young people. "We just really believe that the resounding message for teenagers in our culture is, practice whatever you want, have sex however, whenever and with whoever you want," he said. "I very deeply believe that is harmful. I think exploring sexuality can lay a teenager up for numerous lifelong issues."

Critics of programs that seek to change sexual orientation say the programs themselves can open a person to lifelong problems, including guilt, shame and even suicidal impulses. The stakes are higher for adolescents, who are already wrestling with deep questions of identity and sexuality, mental-health experts say.

"Their identities are still in flux," said Dr. Jack Drescher, the chairman of the committee on gay, lesbian and bisexual issues of the American Psychiatric Association, which in 2000 formally rejected regimens like reparative or conversion therapy as scientifically unproven. "One serious risk for the parent to consider is that most of the people who undergo these treatments don't change. That means that most people who go through these experiences often come out feeling worse than when they went in."

Two weeks ago the Tennessee Department of Health sent a letter to Love in Action, saying it was suspected of offering therapeutic services for which it was not licensed, a department spokeswoman said. Mr. Smid insisted in the interview that his program is a spiritual, not a counseling, center, and he is removing references to therapy from its Web site.

He said he does not track his success rate. Mr. Harwood, who graduated from the adult program in 1999, said that of 11 fellow former clients he has kept track of, eight once again consider themselves gay.

Although critics say such programs threaten the adolescent psyche, at least one teenager who considers himself a successful graduate does not agree. "In my experience people who struggle with their sexuality are more mature in general," Ben Marshall, 18, said. He recounted being in turmoil, growing up gay in a conservative Christian household in Mobile, Ala.

In 2004 his parents sent him to Refuge. "I went to Memphis kicking and screaming," he said. "I had grown to hate the church for the militant message it gave off toward homosexuality."

While enrolled he spent days listening to stories of the pain that homosexuality had caused clients and their families. Slowly, he said, his attitude changed. He ended up choosing to continue in Love in Action's adult program for nine months. While the program has a "high rate of failure," he said "there are enough successes to know I'm not alone."

But even success comes only through continuing struggle. Although he plans to date women in the future, Mr. Marshall said, he is avoiding any romantic relationships for the time being. "In all honesty, I'm just trying to figure out how to deal normally with men before I start to deal with women," he said.

Zach's parents did not reply to a request for comment for this article left on their answering machine. Last week his father, speaking to the Christian Broadcasting Network, said: "We felt good about Zach coming here. To let him see for himself the destructive lifestyle, what he has to face in the future."

In Zach's case there is no indication he was particularly upset about his sexual identity. Although his high school is in a Bible belt city, the student body is fairly tolerant of homosexual classmates, some students said, particularly those who, like Zach, are not conspicuous about their orientation.

"Stereotype me, if you dare," was the motto Zach chose for his blog, where he listed "Edward Scissorhands" and "Girl, Interrupted" as his favorite movies and Brandon Flowers, the lead singer of the alternative rock band the Killers, as the person he would most like to meet.

While Zach, as his blog recounted, only recently came out to his parents, many of his friends had known he was gay for more than a year, one classmate said. Zach openly identified himself as gay on his blog, which links to 213 friends' blogs listed in a Friend Space box on the site.

Zach is due to leave the program next week. His June 4 message expressed thanks for the more than 1,700 messages on his page, many voicing support. "Don't worry," he wrote. "I'll get through this. They've promised me things will get better, whether this program does anything or not. Let's hope they're not lying."

caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Saturday, 16 July 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

I think exploring sexuality can lay a teenager up for numerous lifelong issues.

besides the poor choice of verb in "lay", this sentence is notable for being both 'true' and completely ridiculous.

jermaine (jnoble), Saturday, 16 July 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

If "issues" = "unbridled, blazing hot sex," then sure it's "true."

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 16 July 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

well, yeah, hot sex and bad sex and weird sex and sex problems and sex toys and sex whatever - the idea that sex brings with it inevitable "issues" (hopefully the word'll become so overstuffed that nobody can ever use it ever again) is the 'true' bit, the idea that you'll live a glorious, issue-free life by waiting until you're over nineteen, heterosexual, married and christian before having it is the ridiculous bit, but perhaps i didn't need to point that out.

jermaine (jnoble), Saturday, 16 July 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

oh yeah, i kept meaning to revive this thread...

the therapist my boyfriend is seeing stopped identifying himself with NARTH several years ago, claiming he finds the political angle it's taken to be very suspect. he may still put some stock in the idea that homosexuality is, for lack of a better word, malleable (this doesn't quite reach what i want to get at), but at the very least he's against employing this idea in the service of some nebulous ideology, so i'm definitely relieved. it's more like he's seeing a regular therapist, so he at least gets to get the family issues off his chest, which can only be a good thing.

joseph (joseph), Sunday, 17 July 2005 03:18 (twenty years ago)

i like the line that some of these fuckheads use that it's such shoddy parenting which leads to folks being gay. One wonders why Alan Keyes or Dick Cheney never called 'em on that.

actually, one doesn't wonders, one know EXACTLY why.

but you get the idea.

kingfish (Kingfish), Sunday, 17 July 2005 05:58 (twenty years ago)

Not natural but by no means easily changable, like any sexual preference. The idea of it being "biological or chosen" is bull as it committs the only game in town fallacy and it would never be acceptable to propose such a limited choice on pedophiles or other kinds of alternative sexualities that are still considered taboo today ("Do you think Michael Jackson chose to be such a monster?!!?").

You can cure a homosexual like you can cure me from liking slender women. Born long ago I could've exclusively liked really fat girls (when that was popular) but it'd take a helluva lot of work to make me do it now.

Cunga (Cunga), Sunday, 17 July 2005 07:36 (twenty years ago)

six years pass...

Dud dud dud wtf is wrong w/people????

http://www.allout.org/en/actions/androidapp

uhhhhhh (admrl), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 19:49 (fourteen years ago)

"likes football" rather than "musicals"

smdh...

Prostetnic Vogon Limbaugh (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 19:53 (fourteen years ago)

Shit like this reminds me of my stepfather-in-law, who once commented that two guys he saw sitting on a train must have been gay because "one of them was reading a book by a woman". Also, a kid in the small town where she grew up who went on a student exchange to Germany was presumed to have been "turned gay" as he came back with long hair, etc.

uhhhhhh (admrl), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 19:54 (fourteen years ago)

hah, i forgot about this thread

queen latifah approximately (donna rouge), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 20:01 (fourteen years ago)

I just saw this today, it is so disheartening that people can be so cruel.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44684938/ns/today-today_people/t/teens-parents-after-suicide-hes-still-being-bullied/

juicebox, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 21:07 (fourteen years ago)

I was wondering how these suicides affect the school, and i completely forgot that teenagers are ice fuckin cold.

i'm not a ★, somebody lied (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 21:34 (fourteen years ago)

I realize it's radically reductive, and I don't have any data. I said that. I think that gay men's likelihood to have female friends fits the model, actually. But again, I don't know, I'm not necessarily advocating this view, but I have heard it from people who know more about it than I do.

― justSaying, Saturday, May 28, 2005

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 21:35 (fourteen years ago)

that stupid Today show thing made me cry, what the fuck is wrong with people.

Sophomore subs are the new Smith lesbians. (the table is the table), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 00:59 (fourteen years ago)

me too, so so sad. what amazing people his parents seemed.

I have an infamous queef post? (jed_), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 01:27 (fourteen years ago)


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