Sex, with someone you're not attracted to at all, or when you wish you weren't there to start with..

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...have any of you done this, and if so how, why, and what did you do about it?

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

[im not expecting many answers since i'm the one who started the thread, but i do anticipate at least some logged-outtedness]

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

if anyone on ilx is brave enough to admit that he-she was a sex-worker at one point in time, logged out or not (and i cant imagine who wouldnt be), i'd really like to hear your story

but this thread isnt intended to focus on any systemic social issues, or prostitution. more so for a recounting of personal experiences and sticky situations you've gotten yourself into, that you wish you never had

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

it was fun.

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

you wish you werent there but it was still fun?

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

i didn't understand that part.. what does it mean not wishing you were there to start with? like a rape?

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Not _necessarily_

If you didn't understand that, I don't know if you've been there? I was talking more out of the context of emotional manpulation I suppose...sometimes people wind up or agree to having sex with others only to avoid hurting feelings. But there are other instances.

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 29 May 2005 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

i've done it. it's terrible. was on and off w/my now wife. was dating around. my bestfriend/roommate really liked this girl. i didn't think she was that cute, but she really liked me. we started hanging out because i liked the company of girls. the sex was terrible. i ruined the relationship with my bestfriend. end of story.

― [that bastard] jaxon (jaxon), Sunday, 29 May 2005 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I did it once or twice to see what it was like, it was terribly boring.

― teeny (teeny), Sunday, 29 May 2005 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Having sex with someone is a rubbish way of avoiding hurting their feelings. Maybe the biggest reason people do this is for emotional validation? Then there's peer pressure, plain desperation, and I dare say there are a load of people who have lost their virginity this way.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 29 May 2005 18:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, playing with myself. I'm kidding, I hate myself too much. ;-))))

― nathalie's baby (stevie nixed), Sunday, 29 May 2005 18:24 (twenty-one years ago)

weeks of self-hatred followed

― gabe (gabe), Sunday, 29 May 2005 18:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Matt, OTM. That's how I lost my virginity, I just wanted to get rid of it.

― kevin says relax (daddy warbuxx), Sunday, 29 May 2005 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

sometimes it's just easier to say yes than no

― tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Sunday, 29 May 2005 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Not intercourse, but oral. I still can't figure out how or why it happened, or why this particular person was attracted to me in the first place or why I didn't push her off of me.

― Ian Riese-Moraine's Plateau Rouge! (Eastern Mantra), Monday, 30 May 2005 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Not attracted *at all*? I have had sex with couple of folks to whom I wasn't attracted afterwards, but if I put it bluntly, when you're a bit drunk and her hand is in your pants, it is rather hard to find someone *completely* unattractive. Damn male hormones.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 30 May 2005 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

she was a friend of a friend of a friend. i wasn't attracted to her physically - no particular reason why, i just didn't fancy her at all - but she was funny and cool and we liked the same music and films and eventually ... well, you get the idea.

i'd quite like to share the details because they're actually quite funny, but ... it's a small world, and i'd hate her to read this. (stranger things have happened, believe me.)

as for what i did about it ... well, the next time, i pretended to be asleep. the time after that i used the powers of my imagination. and the time after that ... well, there wasn't a time after that because i decided it was time to deal with it and say, look, this isn't gonna work, there's no spark at all.

unsurprisingly, she agreed. most amicable break-up (after, what, a week?) ever. end of story, hurrah.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Monday, 30 May 2005 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

when [...] her hand is in your pants, it is rather hard to find someone *completely* unattractive
NOW I remember why!

― Ian Riese-Moraine's Plateau Rouge! (Eastern Mantra), Monday, 30 May 2005 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Like Rosemary said, sometimes it's easier to say yes. Sometimes you're lonely and bored and want someone to hang out with and get drunk with but they want someone to have sex with and you're too insecure or afraid of being alone to say no. Obviously sleeping with someone in order to (try to) make them like you is reprehensible, manipulative, doomed to failure, and utter dud. (Not that I haven't done it.)

― mouse (mouse), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

And VX, I don't know you, but are you ok? (I'm guessing if you started this thread it's because you've recently had some such experience).

― mouse (mouse), Monday, 30 May 2005 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

couple times, with this girl who lived down the hall in the dorm. yeesh.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 02:04 (twenty-one years ago)

and, uh, oh yeah, she had hair on her nipples. ugh.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 02:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Thx fer askin, I'm totally fine. Now.

― Vichitravirya XI, Tuesday, 31 May 2005 07:32 (twenty-one years ago)

sure, a couple times. have not hated myself for it yet.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)

HAIR ON HER NIPPLES????????????

― The Ghost of STOP RUINING NIPPLES (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah dude, it was gross.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

uh,I think most women have this to some degree it's just they usually do something about it.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, she did nothing.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Ladynipples are smooth like a baby's bottom. Oh great, now I'm ruining nipples for me.

― The Ghost of This Thread Has Much To Answer For (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

First the hair came for the nipples, and I did nothing.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

long, black and stringy

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Just try to get them off and call it a day or night, as the case may be. Maintenance or pity sex is awfully dull unless your partner is very enthusiastic.

Alba, you're going to hell for that.

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

C on Ts, leave.

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Maintenance sex?

http://www.x-mencharacters.com/images/WilliePiotr.gif

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

it involves tools. and flanges.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:59 (twenty-one years ago)

and spanners?

drilling out blocked-up holes?

― caitlin (caitlin), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

call the roto-rooter man

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

You've never seen hair on women's nipples Dan??!!

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Just scrotal hair, right Dan?

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I shall ask my girlfriend tonight if she plucks her nipples.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

think of a tactful way to do it, jordan

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I like to live dangerously.

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

M. White is pre-emptively making my jokes!

― The Ghost of WAAAAAAAAAAAAH (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

nipple hair on women is pretty common!!

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I've never been grossed out by it.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Pretty, Mandee? It is terribly common, to be sure, but certainly not pretty.

xpost

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.nols.edu/images/photo/store/wmi/wmi_tweezers_xl.jpg

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, WHITE

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Just pluck em out with your teeth and get back to work.

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 418 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I expected no less from you, Dan. You're a man of action who wont let any mere details stand in your way.

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Damn skippy (pronounced "skuh-pie")

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.film.org.pl/images/kurt/bigtrouble.jpg
"Jack, don't you understand? She's a Chinese girl with green eyes! She'll be worth a fortune!"

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

arrrgh beaten to the Big Trouble in Little China punch!

man, I totally forgot Kim Catrall was in that (and I think as an "asian", no less... *sigh*)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Your search - skuh-pie - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
- Try fewer keywords.

and then I tried searching 'hair pie'. Oh my.

― C J (C J), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

wrong Shakey, she played Gracie Law, the intrepid immigration lawyer; she did dress UP as a Chinese princess though

this is my third favorite movie of all time

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

C J is totally winning this thread.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

naw, in the flick the bad guy wants to marry a chinese girl with green eyes, but then makes an exception for Catrall cuz she's kinda hot. THE RACISM OF DESIRE DEFEATED!!!

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

this is my third favorite movie of all time

It's one of those films I regret not having seen until fairly recently. Given my Buckaroo Banzai love I should have been all over Big Trouble when it came out.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Haikunym OTM - Kim Catrall = Gracie Law, crusading green-eyed gwailo immigration lawyer.

Hott green-eyed damsel-in-distress Miaio Yin is played by January 1981 Penthouse Pet Of The Month Suzee Pai.

I could not have made her name up if I tried.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Hair Pai

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 2 June 2005 17:56 (twenty-one years ago)

what the hell happened to this thread..?!@?!! i thought it would be people talking about their sleazy secrets but you all debated hairy nipples for 500 posts...geez ILE! you're so strange

― Vichitravirya XI, Thursday, 2 June 2005 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

The threadjackers have already won.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 2 June 2005 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Respect, yo, and I appreciate your care in not making assumptions about where I stand in the Grand Scheme.
Nonetheless, to the degree that I feel compelled to acknowledge complexity and complicity, and to the extent that I perceive a single-gender lens as unnecessarily reductive, I may in fact look very much like an "anti-feminist."

What we're discussing is indeed a gender issue, and one where isolating the discussion to a single gender misses the point entirely. Ditto quibbling over who has it "worse."

Okay, I'm sorry I was so snappy. I don't normally want to look things through a single-gender lens either, but at the point I made my comment to you, people were actually saying that body issues are merely a matter of individual choice and have nothing to with gender stereotypes and gender expectations, and I was being on the defense and trying to say, "No, it has everything to do with women, with gender, with how those who fail the gender expectations are treated!". So I'm sorry if I was being dismissive to you. I'm very much concerned with how gender expectations put pressures on men as well (being a man who differs from the norm quite a lot I have to deal with the issue personally). It's just that I thought in this particular question I felt I needed to defend the women's point of view, because the discussion was steering towards "We're all just individuals with different tastes, this has nothing to with gender inequality".

Also, I do believe that mixing up, blurring and loosening gender expectations and stereotypes would be beneficial to all people (men, women, and all the other categories people are put in - and those who don't want to belong to any), because it would relieve the pressures of trying to be a "real man" or a "real woman".

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 07:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I sleep with people I don’t fancy all the time. Some times I regret it, sometimes I don’t. What I don’t do is sleep with people I find unattractive, I don’t think I could even if there was money involved.

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, let there be peace between our villages. "Real Man/Real Woman: C or D?" indeed deserves its own thread, and I think has more to do with the issues you've raised than one's individual preference, however overdetermined, wrt length, density, and location of hairs on partners.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

"We're all just individuals with different tastes, this has nothing to with gender inequality".

I don't think anyone said that specifically. I, for one, was mostly reacting to the overuse of the 'personal is the political' meme and defending nipple hair loathers from the specious accusation that they're necessarily chauvinists.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Funny how no-one is going batshit over "I hate hairy chests" on the What is the appeal of men? thread.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Friday, 3 June 2005 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Here is the thing, the thing you see here is: a man's porno/supermodel lady standards, and digust at body hair and skittisness about putting mouth to private bits all dissolves like kool-aid when a man is in love. What I am sure most men would find at least icky, at most horrifying in my character and physicality have mattered not all to those who have been smitten with me. In fact, if old hstencil had been in love with this girl, he would have probably named these hairs gargamel and azriel and felt a total boner coming on when he thought that only he of everyone in his Calculus I class had had these strange little creepers in his mouth. But he wasn't in love, he was put off by her personality, which sounds in everyway a suck, and thus the nippple hairs became part of what was unseemly and undesirable about her, because so could any physical quality. I have heard men and women be derisvie about big tits, small tits, unmanicured pubes, well-tended pubes, bitten fingernails, fancy fingernails, messy hair, too-done hair, tans, paleness, big dicks, small dicks, etc. This is calling card of seeing someone naked you don't really like. We are weird and jerks, and more so in the nude.

― think harder, Saturday, 4 June 2005 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

OK I agree with the last sentence but dude you didn't need to throw in the image of joel eating up hairy titties to get your point across, duder. I mean seriously unnecessary images going on in my head right now. Nothing against hair or against hstencil, they're both alright, even better than alright, in my books.

ps Onimo I've brought this up before. It is ok to denigrate anyone besides females on ILX. ANYONE AT ALL.

― Allyzay flies casual (allyzay), Sunday, 5 June 2005 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i haven't looked at this thread until now, and judging from the first 100 or so posts I don't have the energy to read the whole thing. All I wanna say is... I had no idea hairy nipples were the norm.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 5 June 2005 04:48 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of women have hairy nipples. Lot of men too. Is it unreasonable to drop the stuff about patriarchy but be a little more sensitive about hairy nipples?! They aren't freakish! It's fucking normal. Good god.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Sunday, 5 June 2005 05:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I am hearing your last interjection, Chris, as voiced by Edwin Starr.

― M. White (Miguelito), Sunday, 5 June 2005 05:32 (twenty-one years ago)

It's actually meant to be sung to the tune of "Why Can't We Live Together" by Timmy Thomas.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Sunday, 5 June 2005 05:39 (twenty-one years ago)

ps Onimo I've brought this up before. It is ok to denigrate anyone besides females on ILX. ANYONE AT ALL.

Er, what about black people (there are a zillion threads on ILE where someone who doesn't like, say, gangsta rap, is called racist), hancicapped people, homosexuals & transgendered people, homeless, mentally ill? You don't see them much denigrated here either, and there's a perfectly sensible reason for that. These groups, as well as women, are on the shorter end of the stick when it comes to the power relations in the society. To mock and denigrate them will usually just reinforce the inequal power balance, whether or not that is you intention. I know that sensibility towards these issues can go too far; for example, it can be difficult to criticize the values of hardcore rap without being called a racist. But to mock someone for something that for them is "normal" (like body hair), and what is only considered offensive because the unequally balanced beauty norms say so, is frankly quite stupid. What it boils down to is this: because the unequal power relationship, it is not the same to denigrate men than to denigrate women. Obviously I'm not all for mocking men either (though sensible criticism is often useful), but I do realize there's a difference between calling someone a "chauvinist pig" than a "feminist bitch". Only in a wholly equal society it wouldn't be so.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 5 June 2005 07:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay okay okay power relationships, feminist theory, gender roles..that's all fine and great. But how is it "mocking" or "denigrating" towards all women to simply say that one doesn't like hairy nipples?

Can't you see how extremely silly and stupid this is getting? Chauvinists are almost seeming more tolerable than the PC-brigade on this thread. At least most so-called "chauvinists" have a sense of humor.

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 5 June 2005 08:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i second jody, i mean holy shit, i can barely look at my own hairy nips w/out vomiting. and i certainly wouldn't expect anyone else, much less anyone of the opposite sex, to stomach my stomach au natural. please, ladies, don't be afraid to shave.

― don't get me wrong feminism's cool and all., Sunday, 5 June 2005 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you prefer shaved women to waxed women, then?

I sometimes enjoy having candle wax dripped onto my nipples, at least from a suitable height (tip for anyone thinking of trying wax play: the higher up the candle is, the cooler the wax when it hits you). Candle wax doesn't do much for hair removal though - it's not sticky enough to take hair with it when you pull it off.

― logged out cos you don't need to know *every* kink, Sunday, 5 June 2005 08:33 (twenty-one years ago)

wow.

i'd like to leave you all with one final thought:

where would we be without drugs and saturday nights?

― think about it., Sunday, 5 June 2005 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

But how is it "mocking" or "denigrating" towards all women to simply say that one doesn't like hairy nipples?

It wasn't just that one complaint, it was the reaction it got ("Ewww! Hairy nipples! Learn how to shave!"), and from there one we moved to bigger íssues of body image and how women "should" look. Don't you really think women needing to modify their body from it's natural state to look "like a woman should" (and being mocked by men if they don't, like Maria pointed out), has nothin to do with gender inequality. Hairy nipples may seem funny and trivial, and compared to some other things they may indeed be so, but they're part of the bigger picture which includes things like bulimia and anorexia - and that isn't funny at all.

i second jody, i mean holy shit, i can barely look at my own hairy nips w/out vomiting.

No offense, but I find it kinda sad you can't look at your own body without getting sick.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 5 June 2005 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i never took calculus.

― hstencil (hstencil), Sunday, 5 June 2005 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Joel, I don't mean to single you out, but if a guy is repulsed by a few nipple hairs, he sure as fuck ain't worthy of worshipping at the female altar. I can't handle that such a big deal is being made over a few stray folicles.

― Je4nne ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Sunday, 5 June 2005 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

these weren't just a stray few -- something i've experienced before and been fine with. these were super-long, stringy, and -- in the dark night of our first encounter -- quite unexpected. and the above poster's speculation on this physical trait being just a stand-in for what i disliked about the person was correct. i've certainly dated women that, by the "norms of society," would be considered hirsute, and not given a shit because i was in "love" and whatnot.

― hstencil (hstencil), Sunday, 5 June 2005 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh. I see. I didn't realize you were dealing with the nipple equivalent of Don King. As someone who is a bit obsessive when it comes to hygene and grooming, I'd have been startled.

― Je4nne ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Sunday, 5 June 2005 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, it was quite the jaw dropper, except my mouth was already engaged.

― hstencil (hstencil), Sunday, 5 June 2005 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't you really think women needing to modify their body from it's natural state to look "like a woman should" (and being mocked by men if they don't, like Maria pointed out), has nothin to do with gender inequality.

yeah and what's with the hair brushing thing? or getting a flattering hair cut for that matter? everybody let's just get thumb our nose at societal conventions by grooving on some righteous tunes and munching on this bitchin' granola my yoga teacher made.

― oops (Oops), Sunday, 5 June 2005 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

okay I'm in

― ft, Sunday, 5 June 2005 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

haha. and yeah, as if men don't face any societal pressure to look good or "get big" or face any mental stress of living up to standards of attractiveness that a certain masculinity (or metrosexuality these days) might demand. no no, only women are supposed to "modify their bodies" - do men / young teenage boys even face peer pressure to go to the gym? hell no! - and it's all because of gender inequality. damn sexists.

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 5 June 2005 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

also, it's not as if women prefer tall men or anything, oh hell no...wow, is that a certain trait that isn't even possible for men to modify? gee! if someone stated that "womyn prefer tall men, that's unfair" i wonder how many ilxors would state "but thats okay...because of gender inequality. men must still adore hiary nips, whether they be short or tall."

― Vichitravirya XI, Sunday, 5 June 2005 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

No one has claimed men don't have to deal with any appearance-related expectations - they have been mentioned several times on this thread. So far the discussion has been limited mostly to the expectations women face (which, I think you'll admit, are still bigger and stronger than on men), but if you want widen the subject, sure. I just hope no one tries to make the standard claim that genders are equal in this matter because men face pressures too (an anti-feminist chestnut if any); both issues are important but they're not the same.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 6 June 2005 06:37 (twenty-one years ago)

thx for remaining so polite Tuomas even when i was all bitching and irritated etc. i just dont like how reactionary some people become when the discussion orig shows no attempts of approaching intentional offensiveness, but interpretation is another matter and everyone is entitled to their own hypersensitivity at the end. you are a very well-mannered man

― Vichitravirya XI, Monday, 6 June 2005 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

By no means was I just trying to attack Hstencil (or Dan or anyone). It was his (perhaps careless) comment and the reactions to that sparked the discussion, but I don't think the last 200+ posts have been a personal attack towards anyone; this is simply an important issue to discuss on a general level, I think.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 6 June 2005 07:37 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah women have more "appearance-related expectations" but i think when you take other expectations into considerations, both genders face a comparable amount of pressure to attract mates. it's just a fact of life.
but really it's pointless to say "oh women have it so hard, what with the waxing and the dieting" OR "no men have it hard, what with the iron pumping and the intense pressure to be a success." cause even if we all agreed that both sexes were equal in terms of "appearand-related expectations", they wouldn't cancel each other out and cease to exist.

― oops (Oops), Monday, 6 June 2005 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

wow it's nearly 5am and my brain is mush.

― oops (Oops), Monday, 6 June 2005 08:43 (twenty-one years ago)

this is kind of strange because i've always imagined females have it easier when it comes to attracting mates. (as tuomas has said upthread re: hands down pants)

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 6 June 2005 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but attracting decent ones must be even tricker as you have to weed out all the assholes.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 6 June 2005 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Exactly. There's equal amount of men and women, so statistically speaking women don't have it any easier than men. It's just that some girls seem to attract the majority of men (which is exactly because beauty norms ar tighter for women than form men; men are less likely to be attracted to an "ugly" girl), and these are the ones everyone pays attention to (thus creating the myth that "females have it easier"), whereas "plain" or "ugly" girls are left aside.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 6 June 2005 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

three months pass...

http://vp.org/vpftp/All%20Images%20-in%20progress/Small%20Images%20(10-200KB)/Normal%20distribution%20and%20standard%20deviation.JPG

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 22 September 2005 06:26 (twenty years ago)

three years pass...

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/39/2009/07/504x_coverlies-glam.jpg

― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Wednesday, 22 July 2009 22:58 (sixteen years ago)

Boobs, boobs, boobs! Unwanted nipple hair? Tweeze that shit!

― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Wednesday, 22 July 2009 22:58 (sixteen years ago)

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