Democracy: Americanization by the Backdoor?

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is this perception felt strongly in any parts of the world?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

In my house it is.

― Truckdrivin' Buddha (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

I think "democracy" is kinda codespeak for "rich like the Americans"

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

so it's not clear what "democracy" is, but it is clear what "Americanization" is?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 22:14 (twenty years ago)

not sure that 'democracy' = 'rich like americans', but it certainly (in the sense that the usa is 'fighting' for it) = open to american exploitation/investment + follows american foreign policy lead

ideally it also pays lip service to various human rights issues, but not necessarily

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 22:25 (twenty years ago)

im not sure it matters what each term really is, as much as what they are perceived to be.

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 August 2005 04:15 (twenty years ago)

[nude stuff]

Let's all join hands and sing spirituals!!!!!

― cunt, Thursday, 11 August 2005 04:51 (twenty years ago)

well yes, perhaps. but im not talking about people in the west holding this viewpoint, but people in supposed target countries holding this viewpoint. and...how to change it?

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 August 2005 04:53 (twenty years ago)

tho the use of the term "Backdoor" tends to imply that somebody's getting fucked in the ass here.

which is what generally happens, of course...

― kingfish completely hatstand (Kingfish), Thursday, 11 August 2005 05:03 (twenty years ago)

maybe if other established democracies were more outward looking, this wouldn't be such a problem?

anyway, anti-roman rhetoric from life of brian to thread

― geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 11 August 2005 05:24 (twenty years ago)

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow that dude in the back there looks just like Ned did in Glasgow!

― cunt, Thursday, 11 August 2005 05:28 (twenty years ago)

hi, america is not a democracy - thread over.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:17 (twenty years ago)

Please tell me that by "not a democracy" you're referring to rigged elections or something and not the whole silly "it's a republic, not a democracy" line.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:34 (twenty years ago)

both, duh.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:42 (twenty years ago)

o no. I've had that "republic not a democracy" conversation too many times. I can't figure out exactly where that meme came from, although it has most currency in right-wing circles, but anyway it's silliness. There's no contradiction between "republic" and "democracy." Republics don't have to be democracies (see the People's Republic of China, e.g.), but plenty of them are. Including us. We're a democratic republic. (When people say we're "not a democracy," they sometimes seem to be saying we're not a direct democracy, which is true, but direct democracy is only one form; representative democracy is another.)

As for us not being a democracy because our elections aren't free and fair, yeah, you could make that case. But I'd put it more like we're an imperfect democracy. We're still more a democracy than we are anything else.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:51 (twenty years ago)

There's no contradiction between "republic" and "democracy."

wrong

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:51 (twenty years ago)

That whole idiotic argument is simply another way the republicans like to try to demean the Democrats. It's just like the way they'll talk about Democrat candidates rather than Democratic candidates. They can't stand the fact that Democrats own the term "democratic" so they try to shut it down and say that America is a republic.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:54 (twenty years ago)

It's just like the way they'll talk about Democrat candidates rather than Democratic candidates.

from the looks of that, the repulicans don't need much help.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:56 (twenty years ago)

meaning?

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:57 (twenty years ago)

wrong

How so?

And Walter, yeah, I think you're right that that's where it comes from.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:57 (twenty years ago)

stence makes a good point, after all the term democracy is somewhat contentious anyway, perhaps the thread should be "democracy": americanization by the door, where 'democracy'=that thing george bush is always going on about

see also, 'freedom'

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 August 2005 06:57 (twenty years ago)

meaning walter krantz you couldn't write your way out of a paper bag.

yes, gareth, that is what i mean. it is far too easy to mistake "democracy" and "freedom" for actual democracy and freedom.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:00 (twenty years ago)

or even, domcracy="that thing the west is always trying to ram down out throats"

ie, we seem very convinced that democracy is a holy grail that must be imposed everywhere

or, do we? we don't seem that interested in democracy in sub-saharan africa. perhaps we only want it in some places? under certain conditions? and then, wonder why people might be suspicious of this nebuluous term

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:00 (twenty years ago)

ie, "what exactly is this democracy that they're always going on about?"

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:01 (twenty years ago)

it is far too easy to mistake "democracy" and "freedom" for actual democracy and freedom.

I'm still not getting what you mean by "America is not a democracy," tho.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:01 (twenty years ago)

the thing is, tho, gareth, when the people decide, that is de facto democracy (even if they don't choose "democracy"). the problem is western-style democracy has little to do with letting the people decide, these days.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:02 (twenty years ago)

What I meant if it wasn't clear is that it's nothing but a linguistic game similar to the attempt to turn "liberal" into a dirty word. The correct usage is to speak of a "Democratic candidate" or a "Democratic policy" yet Republican hacks will always say "Democrat policy." These are the same people that will argue that the US is a republic rather than a democracy because it enforces their little psychological/semantic game.

xpost
meaning walter krantz you couldn't write your way out of a paper bag.

Ha ha, thanks for noticing but that's not exactly the issue.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:02 (twenty years ago)

no, they don't actually do that.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:04 (twenty years ago)

Actually, Walter's right, they do. I've even seen the Wall Street Journal, who definitely know better, saying Democrat where it should be Democratic. It goes back a ways. From The Columbia Guide to Standard American English:

The proper noun is the name of a member of a major American political party; the adjective Democratic is used in its official name, the Democratic party. Democrat as an adjective is still sometimes used by some twentieth-century Republicans as a campaign tool but was used with particular virulence by the late senator Joseph R. McCarthy of Wisconsin, a Republican who sought by repeatedly calling it the Democrat party to deny it any possible benefit of the suggestion that it might also be democratic.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:08 (twenty years ago)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vzjJna6YyloJ:dailykos.com/story/2004/10/27/19538/076+democrat+vs+democratic&hl=en

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:13 (twenty years ago)

i agree, totally. but if even we, here, see the term as nebuluous, contradictory and unhelpful, it doesnt help it gain credibility elsewhere. democracy=corruption=exploitation by the west, for many. i can totally see why many people would resist the onslaught of democracy, whatever that is

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:18 (twenty years ago)

Uh, I wouldn't get too far out on this limb of people not wanting democracy. Hundreds of thousands of people marched for democracy in Hong Kong last year. A bunch of people got killed in Tiananmen Square for the same cause. The reformers in Iran are very pro-democracy. Pro-democracy demonstrations eventually ended authoritarian rule in South Korea. People in Ukraine were pretty sure they wanted democracy. The people resisting democracy tend to be the people in power. Like China's leaders, who are constantly going on about how "American-style democracy" just isn't the right thing for the Chinese people. I think it's true that nobody really wants to be invaded by the United States (or anyone else, generally), and that people are plenty suspicious of American propaganda and motives, but that doesn't mean they don't want democracy.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:29 (twenty years ago)

gypsy otm.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 11 August 2005 07:35 (twenty years ago)

People in Ukraine were pretty sure they wanted democracy.

People in Hapsburg-till-WW1 Western Ukraine wanted Western democracy, people in greater-Russia-for-several-centuries Russian-speaking Eastern Ukraine wanted--and probably still want--something more Soviet.

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:45 (twenty years ago)

like they want an imposed famine?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

What do you want me to say? I'm not proselytizing, I'm describing.

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

well, they want something like late-soviet rule, i guess, yeah.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

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