When did smoking go completely beyond the pale?

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Watching the local TV news about new initiatives banning cigarettes everywhere, the vox pops are quite extraordinarily hostile. "Good, they shouldn't have any right to spread their filthy pollution anywhere", etc. When was the major "tipping point" where it stopped being a debate and turned into a legitimate floodgate-opening for all this vitriol? Well, maybe it never really was an actual 'debate', but people used to be more polite about it.

― chthonic for the people, Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

when celebrities start dying, people start caring.

― tehRZA gibbons (tehresa), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)

When the Puritans won.

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

interesting question. I suspect it's something to do with a relative decline in the numbers of people smoking, which eventually reached the stage where non-smokers had sufficient numbers to start being more assertive of their rights.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

when people start crying, celebrities start dying.

― Googley Asearch (Toaster), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:53 (twenty years ago)

when celebrities start dying, people start crying.

― Dr. Glen Y. Abreu (dr g), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:54 (twenty years ago)

Sept. 1st here and then I will no longer have to come home from a bar smelling like an ashtray.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:57 (twenty years ago)

It's terrible the way people used to get dragged into bars and made to smell like ashtrays.

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

When celebrities start dying, people start buying Heat magazine.

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 11 August 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

when the studies about 2nd hand smoke got publicized.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:00 (twenty years ago)

I don't understand no smoking in bars, never will. Bars are dens of iniquity, anyway. But I really hate smoking in restaurants. Smoking and eating simply do not mix. And in the workplace, it's a foregone conclusion.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)

When Rock Hudson died. No, wait...

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)

Smoking and eating may not mix, but put 5 minutes between them and it's a divine combination. Still the problem of wafting 2nd hand smoke inclines me to favor the ban in restaurants.

Paunchu OTM about bars though -- I mean seriously, WTF.

― Aaron A., Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

Laws that force pub owners to ban smoking are ludicrous. If there's a huge demand for no smoking pubs, why haven't they appeared voluntarily? If I want to let people smoke in my house, why shouldn't I be able to?

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

I think that once people felt like the tides were turning against smoking, a lot of people came out of the woodwork who had never admitted publicly that cigarettes actually annoyed the living crap out of them. They (I) had tolerated it because they (I) figured no one else really cared about it. I'm amazed at some of the people I'd never expect who come out and say that they like the smoking ban.

Smokers don't understand because they're used to their stink.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

There's a bill on the table in Chicago to ban smoking in bars, and I really hope that political corruption prevails in that one. Some fat tobacco shilling fuck should pay off all the aldermen. SMOKING IN BARS IS NATURAL AND WONDERFUL.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

It's terrible the way people used to get dragged into bars and made to smell like ashtrays.

-- Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle_vagu...), August 11th, 2005.

You're right. People who don't like to go home feeling sick have no right to enjoy live music or a drink.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)

oh no, here we go.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:07 (twenty years ago)

I hate smoky bars. In Chicago, the club I went to was so thick with it I had to go outside every 20 minutes or because my eyes would start to water and I was coughing/sniffling, etc. I don't mind the occasional cigarette smoke in a bar, but when *everyone* is doing it I may as well just leave, cuz I physically can't stand it.

Of course, in SF, all the bars are non-smoking. Hooray!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:07 (twenty years ago)

in chicago, everybody smokes. We want none of your clean, sissy California air.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)

If you could pass a law GUARANTEEING excellent ventillation in every bar that allowed smoking, I'd be willing to compromise, but this is almost never the case.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)

90% of the regulars in my local smoke. The other 10% are ex-smokers or don't care. Soon we will all have to walk outside every 10 minutes for a cig to accommodate a few tossers who barely visit the place. Progress is wonderful.

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

yeah, I forget what club it was, but it had low ceilings and solid brick walls (and fans that were not operating). Four Tet sucked anyway, we left early.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i have to admit, too much smoke gets to me, too. even smokers care about proper ventilation. I'm much more hesitant to smoke indoors in the winter, when the windows aren't open and I know I'll be sitting in my own filth for untold months.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

xpost The bar owners in NYC stopped complaining pretty quickly. Seems like business is fine.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

It isn't your right to walk into any private pub/bar/restaurant. If the owner wants to let people smoke in there, why shouldn't they? If you don't like it, go somewhere else. Let the Market prevail.

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)

i much prefer non-smoking bars now actually. but then again, i quit so maybe i've lost my tolerance for smoke.

― gear (gear), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)

It isn't your right to smoke either.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)

If the owner wants to let people smoke in there, why shouldn't they?

Because it's a workplace. If a bar absolutely has to have smoking I believe they can get around the laws anyway (at least in CA) by making all of the employees part owner or something.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:12 (twenty years ago)

Let the Market prevail.

But what about the children? All those children in bars... I worry about them.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)

isn't the push to ban smoking in bars usually under the guise of providing a safe/healthy work environment?
xpost

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)

"If the owner wants to let people smoke in there, why shouldn't they?"

It isn't necessarily legal to subject your patrons to health hazards. You may as well argue that if an owner wants to keep their restaurants filthy and crawling with vermin, why can't they?

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:14 (twenty years ago)

i don't mind going into smoking bars, though. i still prefer to go other places, though. i quit and stay away from 'em now because the thought of going out like Warren Zevon or Peter Jennings scares the crap out of me.

― gear (gear), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:14 (twenty years ago)

but mmm, that rich, smoky flavor....

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)

xposts
I can barely go into a bar/club now, for some reason I've become allergic to cigarette smoke since I quit. My sinuses get fucked within minutes. So smoking bans make me really happy on one level, but I find them a bit hard to justify otherwise. Better for employees, at least, though I've never met a cocktail or bartender who was worried about the smoke where they work.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)

It isn't your right to smoke either.

That's sticky. It IS legal.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)

Okay, I'm overwhelmed with the logical force of the arguments. As long as we make restaurants only serve healthy food.

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)

i actually like the smoking ban in bars. it's resulted in lots of nice patios and outside seating. i'm so used to the clean bar air now that when i visit places where you can still smoke inside, it really bothers me.

― tehRZA gibbons (tehresa), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:17 (twenty years ago)

I think smoking bans in bars are hard to justify, but every smoker nowadays has to have the sneaking suspicion that they are on their way out (as smokers, if not as dead folk). And they have to be rational enough to understand that this is not entirely a bad thing. Getting angry about it is not a reasonable reaction.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:18 (twenty years ago)

But what about the children? All those children in bars... I worry about them.

Ha ha, I've actually taken my daughter into bars (she just turned one). Another smoking ban bonus.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:18 (twenty years ago)

Kind of true Kenan, but again, why not give people the choice of smoking and no smoking bars?

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:19 (twenty years ago)

If they had a sign out front that read "THIS RESTAURANT IS FILTHY AND CRAWLING WITH VERMIN. ENTER AT OWN RISK. OH AND TRY THE BISQUE", that would be fine with me. Likewise if you knew going in that a place allowed smoking.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

Pretty soon no smoking will be the standard everywhere so it's probably time to get used to it.

I don't know what it's like where you are Noodle but here bars/clubs have to have public licenses to operate openly so there's no reason they shouldn't have to follow public, voted-in, ordinances. If they really want to work around it, as places in "dry" counties do, they can become private clubs and require membership. whatever.

Meanwhile I'm a huge patron of bars/clubs/live music. I have severe asthma and often have to leave early b/c I can't breathe. So between me being able to go out in public and not be suffocated vs. someone else having to go outside for a few minutes to smoke. . .let them go outside. I don't want to smoke with them.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

I walk into a pub that plays music I don't like. Do I

a) leave and go somewhere else
b) demand that they play music I do like
c) demand that a law is passed so that all pubs only play music I like?

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

Music is not a health hazard.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

I think if anything, a smoking ban is a step toward having smoking and non-smoking places. Obviously the "market" was free to create non-smoking establishments for all of these years and it didn't. There are always loopholes, smoking patios, and people who simply ignore the law anyway so the smoking ban kind of creates this separation between the smoking and non-smoking areas which never existed before.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:29 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry if I'm being repetitively bolshy about this. I see some of the force of the arguments against, and a smoking ban in England really will spoil the quality of nights out for me and a lot of the people I know (who go to pubs regularly). I still haven't heard a convincing argument why individual pubs shouldn't be free to choose though. The protecting staff argument is closest, but there are still plenty of unhealthy jobs that people aren't obliged to take.

― Zazas Zazas Nasatanada Katzenellenbogen by the Sea (noodle vague), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:31 (twenty years ago)

Risks associated with secondhand smoke are greatly exaggerated, thanks to bad science being promoted by all sorts of groups. I don't smoke, but this tends to be a pet peeve of mine in all areas. I'm a lot more concerned about all the chemicals in the air that aren't getting all the press. Fun fact of the day: According to the WHO study, which was buried at the time it was conducted..kids exposed to secondhand smoke in the home during childhood are actually 22% less likely to get lung cancer.

― Aramyr, Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:31 (twenty years ago)

I walk into a pub that plays music I don't like.

Do they have a cabaret license? Are they paying their ASCAP fees? There are rules and regulations surrounding public music so why not air quality?

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

Pretty soon no smoking will be the standard everywhere so it's probably time to get used to it.

This is true enough. I don't mind smoking outside. Another thing smokers don't realize: how much of their hangover is due to chainsmoking throughout the evening.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 11 August 2005 23:35 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 107 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

people who wanta a smoking ban are ever christian or flaming fagits

― 3454364567457, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

You can smoke (almost) anywhere (except where banned indoors). You can only drink at home or in regulated areas. So if I want a beer, I need to go to a bar. If I want to smoke, I need only reach into my pocket for a cigarette and head outside.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

Why can't I burn tires in my front yard?

― MOtherFUck@z, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

obvious idea: restrict smoking to the very places to which drinking is restricted.

― N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

Back Door to Prohibition: The New War on Social Drinking

― whiteout (bobnope), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

I have sympathy with Josh but, unfortunately, most of the proponents of the smoking ban that I've seen (in the UK at least) are people WHO DON'T DRINK IN PUBS ANYWAY.

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

I don't go to non-smoking bars and bitch & moan about how I can't light up.

Is there any reason why non-smokers can't show the same tolerance?

― ..., Friday, 12 August 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

LIke i said they fagits tats why

― 324545756568, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

no but seriously, there's no reason, is there?

― ^not this guy, Friday, 12 August 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

I don't go to non-smoking bars and bitch & moan about how I can't light up.

i thought that was the whole point of this thread?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

x-post No sympathy needed. I'm a grown man; I can make decisions where to go or where to avoid on my own, and have never avoided a spot because of cigaratte smoke. But I also don't miss the smell of cigarette smoke when it is restricted.

What about performance spaces - clubs, theatres, etc. - where alcohol is served but where people have come for, ostensibly, something other than just a pint?

Anyway, as an issue of tolerance it's an odd one. Drinking it almost always tolerated, but in its extreme form - drunkenness -, when it frequently infringes on others, it's rarely tolerated. Smoking is its own extreme, I guess - cigarettes smoke whether you do or not!

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

I don't mind the idea of banning smoking in theatres and at gigs. Clubs? Errrrrrrrrrrrr, that certainly would not have worked in my clubbing days, given the amount of other substances being abused.

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:12 (twenty years ago)

No, the point was that we all impose on each all the time and that non-smokers need to quit being bitches and make some compromises ie Smoking bars for those that want them, and non-smoking bars for those that don't.

Smokers are not opposed to non-smoking bars, we're not seeking to ban them. That's the key difference. Clearly.

xx-post

― ..., Friday, 12 August 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

WHat is this fagit.com

― 64456577, Friday, 12 August 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

NEXT THING YOU KNOW SMOKERS WILL BE DEINIED MORTGAGES

― The Ghost of Smoking Leads To An Increase In Whiny Bitchdom (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:31 (twenty years ago)

they'll need a mortgage just to buy cigarettes soon.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

stop shouting, no one is saying it's a persecution thing, just a courtesy thing. It's not a huge deal one way or the other.

x-post

― ..., Friday, 12 August 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

I think the ban IS a good compromise, actually. Everyone can go out together and the smokers can just step outside when they want a smoke. What's the big fucking deal? You have to step into the bathroom to piss, after all.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO PISS ON THEIR FELLOW PATRONS WILL BE HERDED INTO CAMPS

― The Ghost of That's Probably A Good Idea, Actually (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

i haven't read this thread but i just started smoking again and it feels GREAT

― some stockholm cindy talking (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

Everyone can go out together and the smokers can just step outside when they want a smoke. What's the big fucking deal?

tuesday's off, friend.

― N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

IM A REGULAR SMOKEAHAUNTUS.

― Lupton Pitman (Chris V), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

You have to step into the bathroom to piss, after all.
yeah, we lost the battle on that one

― ..., Friday, 12 August 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

This entire thread is redeemed by the mental image of Somkeahauntus (Smokahontus?).

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

Maybe have a glassed in room in each bar, like they have in airports! Like a telephone booth for smokers!

Actually, that would be a terrible idea. But a funny one to watch!

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

YEAH HOWEVER YOU SPELL IT.

― Lupton Pitman (Chris V), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

this may well work to smoker's favours - see smoking outside creates the perfect setting for CHATTING UP HOTT STRANGER GIRLS nonchalantly

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:48 (twenty years ago)

When Tony Blair comes down to my my local boozer and starts downing pints with the lads then I might accept a smoking ban... well, actually, no, I'd move to another pub

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

both outside, smoking a fag (giving a nice timeframe), both having the victim mentality of having to stand outside (a common bond), and it's quieter outside so it's easier to talk and everyone's relaxed because of the smoking.

and then you can offer them a drink from the bar.

i might take up smoking.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 12 August 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

Tips for smokers: Move to China

They smoke everywhere. At the hotel we were staying in, they would actually place a box of cigarettes as the last course in the dinner, and people would smoke at the beginning and end of their meals, at the table.

― jellybean (jellybean), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

God, I love to smoke while I eat. It's one of the great joys of dining for me in Paris, where nobody gives a fcuk, and you can smoke and drink and eat to your heart's content.

Socially, I find the smoking bans in SF kind of interesting, though. Either people leave to go smoke or you go out with someone and it gives you both five minutes of relatively uninterrupted time to catch up, chat, gossip, etc...

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

is smoking actually beyond the pale? i would say, not.

― N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

I do appreciate the gathering outside for chatting/being chatted up opportunities, but I'm still missing the lovely tang of smoke and wine in the throat simultaneously. Don't like a whole cig with nothing to sip off of, I just get clogged up and acrid.

I thought the NYC ban did leave room for establishments with a separately-ventilated room but the standards were so high no one would be likely to put one in? As in, it required far more ventilation for that one room than most places have for the whole property, and staff would not have to/be allowed to enter the smoking area at all, ever.

― Laurel, Friday, 12 August 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

where has the pressure for banning smoking come from? this has intrigued me. what makes governments legislate on this and not, say, the insane state of farming?

― N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

Working class people are not allowed to enjoy themselves *ducks*

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

The middle classes have rights, the working classes have duties *ducks again*

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

When last I looked, people were not allowed to farm in bars and restaurants, N_RQ, but maybe that's different where you live.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:34 (twenty years ago)

a lot of cockfarming.

― N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

ha!

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

There should be a law, dammit!!!

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

You have to go outside to farm cock, it's bad for the employees' health if it's done inside!

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

If you ask me, the case for passive cockfarming remains to be proven

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

God love the people who have to do that research...

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

It's the beagles I feel sorry for

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 12 August 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

ten months pass...

could people just stop being fanatics? on both sides?

you will not get cancer from getting the odd whiff of fag smoke in the open air.

― Roughage Crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 5 July 2006 09:38 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.jti.co.jp/sstyle/manners/ad/change/gallery/images/im_grapic16.gif

― permanent revolution (cis), Wednesday, 5 July 2006 11:51 (nineteen years ago)

;_;

i AM a nonsmoker!

― Roughage Crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 5 July 2006 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

me too

: )_

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 5 July 2006 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

also on the way over this morning i cdn't help noticing invisibility of the whooooole city of london:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/airquality/smog/images/summer.gif

which bothers me more than al fresco cigs.

― Roughage Crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 5 July 2006 14:10 (nineteen years ago)

hmmmmm

xpost

― Roughage Crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 5 July 2006 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

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