We're NOT New York. We're Philadelphia.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/fashion/sundaystyles/14PHILLY.html

Philadelphia Story: The Next Borough

By JESSICA PRESSLER
Published: August 14, 2005

PHILADELPHIA

WEARING a Paul Green School of Rock T-shirt, his bangs plastered to his forehead in the summer heat, Laris Kreslins pulled in front of a handsome brownstone on Rittenhouse Square, the priciest neighborhood in the city, and hopped out of his car.
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Ryan Donnell for The New York Times

Transplants: Back row, from left: Matthew Izzo, Michael Anderer, Mark Ax, Rob Eich, Daniel Matz, Anna Neighbor, Kendra Gaeta and Laris Kreslins. Front row: Toko Yasuda, John Schmersal, Laura Watt, Clark Thompson, Gus Thompson and Lydia Thompson. These former New Yorkers were at the Rag Flats home of Ms. Watt and Mr. Thompson.

"We're going to show you what a real Philly apartment looks like," he said, unlocking the door to reveal a spacious one-bedroom flat sparsely decorated with CD's and copies of music magazines. "As you can see, it has hardwood floors, lots of light and very high ceilings," he said. Then Mr. Kreslins paused and delivered what he knew would be the kicker: "Rent is $800 a month. Heat and electricity included."

Mr. Kreslins isn't selling real estate. He's selling Philadelphia. The publisher of Arthur, a free arts and culture magazine, Mr. Kreslins, 30, lived in a tiny apartment in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, before leaving New York two years ago and ending up in Philadelphia, where he and his girlfriend, Kendra Gaeta, 30, another Brooklynite, bought a four-bedroom house close to the Philadelphia Museum of Art in March and promptly started a Web site, movetophilly.com.

The site, designed to lure 20- and 30-something singles and couples to the city, features a sultry caricature of Patti LaBelle, a longtime resident, who entreats visitors to e-mail for the kind of tour Mr. Kreslins was recently holding, taking visitors to a thrift store, a Polish butcher and his friend Brendan's apartment.

Philadelphians occasionally refer to their city - somewhat deprecatingly - as the "sixth borough" of New York, and with almost 8,000 commuters making the 75-minute train ride between the cities each weekday, the label seems not far off the mark. But Mr. Kreslins and Ms. Gaeta are a new breed of Philadelphia-bound commuters, those who come from New York by train or the popular Chinatown bus for a weekend and then come back, with a U-Haul, to stay.

They are the first wave of what could be called Philadelphia's Brooklynization.

Hard numbers assessing exactly how many new residents are from New York are not available, but real estate brokers are noting an influx of prospective buyers and renters from the city; club owners and restaurant employees have spotted newcomers, on both sides of the bar; and "everyone knows someone who's moved here from New York," said Paul Levy, the executive director of the Center City District, a business improvement group, and himself a former Brooklyn resident.

Attracted by a thriving arts and music scene here and a cost of living that is 37 percent lower than New York's, according to city figures, a significant number of youngish artists, musicians, restaurateurs and designers are leaving New York City and heading down the turnpike for the same reasons they once moved to Brooklyn from Manhattan.

"We got priced out of Manhattan, and we moved to Brooklyn," said John Schmersal, 32, of the three-member band Enon; two of them migrated here in January. "Then we got priced out of Brooklyn. Now we're in Philadelphia."

On a recent Friday night Mr. Schmersal and his girlfriend, Toko Yasuda, were huddled at the bar at the Khyber, a smoky rock institution in the nightclub-heavy Old City neighborhood, a Colonial area of narrow streets bordering the Delaware River east of City Hall, to see Love as Laughter, a New York City band. "We like going to shows here," Mr. Schmersal said. "In New York there are so many people, it's impossible to even get in to see hot bands."

Much less be in a band. "For years I was willing to sacrifice quality of life for artistic fulfillment - you know, you find a circle of artists and you scrape by," said Anna Neighbor, a 27-year-old bass player and Williamsburg exile, between sips of Yuengling lager at a bar in the Northern Liberties neighborhood, an artists' enclave north of City Hall. In January Ms. Neighbor and her husband, Daniel Matz, and Jason McNeely, all members of the indie rock band Windsor for the Derby, decided to leave Brooklyn.

Ms. Neighbor and Mr. Matz discovered Fishtown, a gentrifying blue-collar neighborhood adjacent to Northern Liberties, where, in the last five years, youthful faces with bed head have made their way among the traditionally Irish Catholic residents. They found a three-bedroom row house for $170,000.

"New York is mythologically all about vibrancy and creativity, but it's hard to work a 40-hour week and come home and be Jackson Pollock," said Mr. Matz, 32, a guitarist. He said that by living in Philadelphia he could support himself teaching public school and devote the rest of his time to his band.

A few blocks away from Ms. Neighbor's house live Laura Watt, a 38-year-old painter, and her husband, Clark Thompson, 38, a financial services technician who left his Manhattan-based bank for one in Philadelphia a year ago. They settled in a three-level condominium in a new housing development called Rag Flats in Fishtown with their two children, Gus and Lydia. At $439,000 it was pricier than any of the block's three-story row houses, but with three bedrooms, each with an outdoor deck; solar heat and electricity; a rooftop with spectacular views; and a dumbwaiter going down to the kitchen, they thought it was worth it.

"Philadelphia reminds me a lot of what Brooklyn used to be like," said Ms. Watt, who had lived in Brooklyn and Westchester County for 15 years.

Fifteen or 20 years ago, the idea of Philadelphia as a place to go for quality life would have been laughable to many people, even to Philadelphians. Sandwiched between New York and Washington, Philadelphia was a flyover city - trainover really - a place where a mayor had ordered the bombing of a neighborhood and where Eagles fans reveled in booing their own team, its chief popular exports cheese steaks and "Rocky." While Philadelphia's rich cultural history, like its art museum, its symphony orchestra and its Colonial architecture, gave the city establishment credentials, it did not produce much of an avant-garde.

"The Philadelphia market was really provincial," said Steven Lowy, who opened a gallery in Philadelphia in 1984 but fled back to Manhattan three years later.

Lately the city has stepped up its efforts to woo people back, in part by trying to position Center City as "young and hip and cool," said Meryl Levitz, the president of the Greater Philadelphia Tourism and Marketing Corporation, who regularly holds lunches at which she tells the New York media, "We're closer than the Hamptons!"

The campaign had a boost last month when Forbes magazine named Philadelphia No. 12 on its list of best cities for singles (out of 40), a jump from No. 15 a year ago. In 2004 tourists in Philadelphia numbered 25.5 million, an increase of 41 percent in the last five years, and though the city had been losing residents - especially young ones - steadily since the 1950's, when it had 2.07 million people, the population of the city, the nation's fifth-largest, has leveled off at 1.5 million in the last four years.

A government plan to provide the city with free wireless Internet access has as yet gone unrealized, but the national publicity surrounding it has given Philadelphia a progressive image, as has a marketing campaign by the tourism bureau, started in 2003 to attract gay tourists. That tagline was "Get your history straight and your nightlife gay."

"There's a big gay clientele coming down here," said Michael McCann, a real estate agent with Prudential Fox and Roach, who also said he has seen a "significant increase" in buyers from Manhattan and has worked with "a ton" of "single people and couples between 28 and 43" from Brooklyn.

Often they move to start the kind of business they had in New York. Danuta Mieloch, 39, an owner of Rescue Rittenhouse Spa, who administered body scrubs to celebrities at Paul Labrecque on the Upper East Side before moving to Philadelphia to start her own place, is an example. Jose Garces, 33, a former chef at Chicama and Pipa in Gramercy Park, will open Amada, a tapas restaurant in Old City, in September. Matthew Izzo, 35, and his business partner, Mark Ax, 35, defected from New York design firms to start their own home and design boutiques, the Matthew Izzo shops.

"It's just so much more workable here," Mr. Izzo said. "It's smaller and more manageable." And Lindsay Berman, 27, who left a marketing job at the Showtime network in Manhattan, is waiting tables part time at Jones, a 70's throwback diner in Center City, while she gets her T-shirt line, Dirty Old Shirt, off the ground.

Not that everyone is committed for life. Some "can't give up their Brooklyn phone numbers," said Heather Murphy Monteith, a dancer who runs a disco for toddlers. She has noticed 718 and 917 area codes popping up on the contact sheets.

Some keep more than just their digits: Mitzi Wong, 36, a buyer for the Philadelphia-based trend mecca Anthropologie, bought a "Jane Austen-like" row house in Society Hill, the historic Philadelphia neighborhood, but she is keeping her East Village apartment for weekends.

Lee Daniels, a native Philadelphian and producer of the film "Monster's Ball," rents in Harlem but bought a luxury apartment on the Delaware riverfront. "So many people are moving here," Mr. Daniels said. "People just fall in love with it."

Many of the things that were once deterring about Philadelphia have also been turned around. The recent lifting of archaic building ordinances and a 10-year tax abatement on new construction means that blighted factories and brownstones are now being converted, many into luxury apartments, and new buildings are going up in place of weed-filled lots. Bring-your-own restaurants, born out of Pennsylvania's Puritan liquor restrictions, have become a charming hallmark of Center City.

Philadelphia still has its share of urban blight: It ranks higher than New York in homelessness, crime and poverty. It maintains a high position in the Men's Health list of America's Fattest Cities each year, and, as New Yorkers often complain, you would be hard-pressed to find much open after 2 a.m. But the renaissance in real estate and restaurants has aligned with the city's music scene, which runs the gamut of cool.

In a recent conversation Nick Sylvester, who covers Philadelphia music for The Village Voice and Pitchfork Media, an online music magazine, mentions diverse acts like the indie rockers Dr. Dog and Man Man, Beanie Sigel's State Property crew, and D.J.'s Diplo and Dave Pianka.

"Philly's decidedly anti-scene, and that appeals to a lot of musicians that move there," he said. "They can actually do their own thing."

There are art shows of international renown, like the Salvador Dalí show at the Philadelphia Museum of Art in the spring, and shows by quirky collectives like Space 1026 in Chinatown, which recently housed an installation made with Cheez-Its. All of which has collided with a peculiar cultural moment in which uncool is the new cool, in which blue-collar scrappiness and a surfeit of fried-meat specialties now seems endearingly kitschy.

At least one developer is banking on the hope that Philadelphia's appeal is not just a fleeting fad. On a vast tract of land in Northern Liberties, an area once notable for hate crimes and heroin availability, a 50-year-old former shopping center developer named Bart Blatstein is building a $100 million development. Scheduled for completion in 2007, it will have 1,000 apartments, half a million square feet of ground-floor retail space and 100,000 square feet of industrial-chic office space, all of which Mr. Blatstein says will be offered at reduced rents to "edgy, creative types." The project is seeking New Yorkers. (Mr. Blatstein's company, Tower Properties, plans to advertise both in The Village Voice and on New York's Craigslist.) "We want it to be a cross between Williamsburg and SoHo," he said.

But Mr. Lowy, of Portico gallery in SoHo, is skeptical about the long-run chances for young artists: "The quality of life is pretty good but many of those artists probably won't stay. Can you get an art dealer to come to your studio when you're in Philly? Sure, you have time to make more art, but there's no one to buy it."

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

BAAAAAARF. where do i even begin with this article? and just how did ten year tax abatements ever become a cool thing?

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:42 (twenty years ago)

baltimore is the new philadelphia!

charltonlido (gareth), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

seriously.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:48 (twenty years ago)

charltonlido may be on to something

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:51 (twenty years ago)

philly is cute, but it seems more like a place you grow up in and leave, rather than a destination spot.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

no, charltonlido was referencing something i said on a thread elsewhere.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

i think philly IS a destination spot, but not for the type of people they're trying to attract. i love AND hate it here.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

A government plan to provide the city with free wireless Internet access has as yet gone unrealized

OMG!!!

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 14 August 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

what really irks me is the multitude of things pressler does NOT talk about, but i guess im supposed to let it slide because its the style section. also, i read a piece almost every three months about philly's so-called "brain drain" -- am i to believe that the smart people are leaving and rich assholes are taking up their spots?

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:01 (twenty years ago)

a lot of cities are trying to do that now. (xpost)

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

yeah, that free wireless thing is a trip. street is totally gung-ho about it but at the same time is shutting down firehouses to bring the budget into the black.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

the smart people are leaving and rich assholes are taking up their spots?

this happens everywhere with high rents.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

Here, we can't even get the wireless networks at our universities working properly, so I'm not optimistic about having the whole city wired up anytime soon.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

i'm pro- free wireless. the internet has gotten too big to just be for the rich. free wireless means an incentive to stay in an "urban"/downtown area, support local businesses, etc.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

also, hi, ive never heard anyone in this town call the city "the sixth borough". philly folks would rather die than ever refer to here as that.

isnt the six borough hoboken / jersey city, anyway?

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

it's also seriously NOT expensive to implement.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

i lived in paul green's old apartment. i got his mail for years. nothing good though. i miss philly. i actually thought philly was getting pretty pricey before i moved. but it was nice to see more people walking their dogs in center city after midnight.

scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

i am pro-free wireless but would rather have street get his shit together on other city things before implementing it. if you work inside city limits, or are a city resident working out in the burbs, you're wages are taxed.

in fact, taxes are so out of control here [to the point where they need serious restructuring] that the only way to lure businesses into the city is by the aforementioned abatements.

when they were building liberty 1 & 2 back in the 80's the city offered the same deal to those businesses. now that the time is come where their leases are ending and have to start paying taxes, those same businesses are thinking of moving into cira centre, a new high rise construction with a tax abatement.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

i am pro-free wireless but would rather have street get his shit together on other city things before implementing it.

it doesn't have to be a "one or the other" thing. it's not as if streets have to be dug up, cables laid, etc.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

there's kind of a micro-scale new york logic here -- improve the city's image, and you'll eventually have the money to improve the city itself.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

jody, you fail to understand how ineffective city government is here. the budget is messed up -- firehouses and other essential city services are being shut down.

also, you've never encountered the efficiency of the streets department. if they dug up the street to lay cables, it would never get repaved / fixed. there's a sinkhole about 5 feet wide in the street two blocks from my house, the lone warning sign is a cone in the middle. its been like that for 6 months now and it hasnt been fixed. only when a street collapses, like it did up in nolibs a month ago, does it take the city to actually tend to the problem.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

it's amazing that the free wireless is one of the things that's making philadelphia "hip." it's less amazing that (relatively) cheap real estate is also doing that.

(scanning the linked article) jesus, it's williamsburgers who are leading this charge?!? god help you!

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

(but new york, as always, has its priorities ass-backwards... i'm SO glad they're not having the olympics here, because i can't even imagine what a logistical nightmare and tremendous pain in the butt that would be.)

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

also, hi, ive never heard anyone in this town call the city "the sixth borough". philly folks would rather die than ever refer to here as that.

yes

isnt the six borough hoboken / jersey city, anyway?

also yes.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

also, you've never encountered the efficiency of the streets department. if they dug up the street to lay cables, it would never get repaved / fixed.

you didn't see the part where i said "they don't have to."

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

it's amazing that the free wireless is one of the things that's making philadelphia "hip."

it's not a matter of hipness. it's just bringing the city up to date. even tucson, the city that time forgot, has free wireless in its downtown.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

lets not forget, john street IS one the worst mayors in america:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1050284,00.html

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

i mean, do you think it's "hip" that cities have wireless towers so people can use their cell phones? no, it's just necessary.

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

oh yeah -- wait'll these hip and edgy NYC commuters see their first paycheck, and notice that almost 5% has been ripped out for the "commuter tax."

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:31 (twenty years ago)

jody, the city could be brought up to date in more useful ways: improving SEPTA, restructing the tax system, etc.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE EITHER OR

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

really, they can do that and anything else! it's a really cheap and low-maintenance thing to do and it benefits lots of people! it's not like "omg if we do this we'll never have the money to improve septa!"

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

anyway, i gotta go...

sittin here la la waitin for my ya ya (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:34 (twenty years ago)

philadelphians are already pretty heavily taxed. it's a matter of budgetary priorities and having a somewhat efficient municipal government. ending some of the really egregious corrupt pay-offs would also be nice.

improving SEPTA

EXACTLY -- as in, "not periodically threatening to shut down at least 1/2 of the trains and thereby strangling the city's economy."

then again, that's at the mercy of the idiots in harrisburg.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

once again, proof that you have NO clue what you're talking about. let me state this in big letters, so you understand: THE CITY DOES NOT HAVE THE MONEY.

this is why they're shutting down firehouses [which im sure you'll agree, much nicer to have instead of free wireless, unless you want to blog while your house burns down] and other essential city services. huge corporations do not move to cities simply because, whoa, there's, like, free wireless.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

eisbar, we've got rendell to thank for that. even during his tenure as mayor he was NOT sympathetic to SEPTA.

i will say this: ive waited on both rendell and street. rendell was seriously the nicest person in the world, street was a cranky ol' bitch.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

maria, isn't part of the problem also the fact that SEPTA doesn't have a dedicated funding source (which makes funding the system the political football that it is)? then again, rendell IS the governor now so i think that the fact that there STILL is no dedicated funding source can be put on his shoulders to some extent.

also, this article does NOT go into the fact that doing a philly-to-NYC commute is STILL pretty expensive (i know, i did it for a year-and-a-half). if you have no car, it's almost $600/month for amtrak -- taking septa to trenton, and then NJ transit from there to NYC penn station is about 1/3 of the price, but a LOT longer and a LOT more likely to fray yer nerves. that ALONE would eat up any savings from renting or owning real estate in philly. and that's not even counting the impact of the commuter tax!

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 August 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

ive always thought about taking the chinatown bus to philadelphia one weekend to go to making time and eat lots of cheesesteaks. is there much else to do? and what appeal does philadelphia have to gay tourists? and what is this thing about mayor bombing his own neighborhood?

phil-two (phil-two), Sunday, 14 August 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

this article is funny, esp. the sixth borough thing. how did that get past the editors? i've always enjoyed philly when visiting though and probably wouldn't mind living there.

"Philly's decidedly anti-scene, and that appeals to a lot of musicians that move there," he said. "They can actually do their own thing."

anti-scene is the new scene!

amon (eman), Sunday, 14 August 2005 16:00 (twenty years ago)

PHILLY TO REST OF AMERICA: STAY THE FUCK HOME

(seriously)

strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 14 August 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

man, i am gonna miss it

strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 14 August 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

haha though if i dont FIND A FUCKING PLACE TO LIVE IN BALTIMORE i am not really "going" anywhere

strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 14 August 2005 16:23 (twenty years ago)

also dude my "stay the fuck home" was totally not directed at you amon with yr "i wouldnt mind living there" right before it!!

strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 14 August 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

This is all very silly.

I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Sunday, 14 August 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

"anti-scene is the new scene!"

Antiseen have always been embraced with open arms in philly!


This is hardly the first wave of new yorkers coming to philly like this. i don't know if anyone mentioned that. but "anti-scene", i used to agree with that. i don't know about now. things were changing even before i left 3 years ago. it was always pretty insular. and i used to get a definite vibe from lifers that it was unseemly to try too hard (to get attention, to get ahead, to be too colorful) and it used to bug me, but then i kinda grew to admire the pigheadedness and parochialism of it all. it was, for better and for worse, my home, and i grew up there in a lot of ways. i used to have to defend it so much! now i guess i don't have to.

scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 14 August 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

"philadelphians are already pretty heavily taxed."

and the tax on beer!!! don't get me started. hope all those brooklynites can handle that. beer is actually cheaper in new york. beer is cheaper on martha's vineyard (!!!!) where everything else is a zillion times more than everywhere else.

scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 14 August 2005 17:46 (twenty years ago)

strng - im afraid i have no leads on b-more apts. i can only suggest citypaper classified and craigslist. thats how i found my present one-bedroom for fo' fitty/mo.

amon (eman), Sunday, 14 August 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

It's a bit frustrating to read this because a few years ago I wanted to move to Philly for some of the very reasons that this article brings up -- that it's affordable and that people can support their creative habits with regular jobs that don't eat all their time. I've tried to convince my girlfriend (who does art) that, but she's obsessed with NYC. We settled on Jersey City, which is not so bad, but doesn't have any music or art scene to speak of. I just came back from there today and really enjoyed being there. I kind of hate New York. But I have job, band, and girlfriend here so I hae reason enough to stay.

At the same time, having played Philly many many many times, and having been more a part of that "scene" (or "anti-scene") than any other, I agree with Scott S. There's a sense that no band should be TOO good or hustle TOO hard. I don't feel like anyone wants to see their homeboys really make it, at least in rock. It's odd that places like Louisville Kentucky and Athens Georgia have been able to give the world so many indie bands and that Philly, a fairly major city with lots of indie fuxors, hasn't.

Hurting (Hurting), Sunday, 14 August 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

on the other hand, it's a really great place to be if you just wanna do your thing/art and be left alone. and you get to live in a city and have people around and have it not be that expensive. (depending on where you live. but that has changed somewhat.) a lot of artists/illustrators/writers live in philly and you would have no idea that they were artists/writers/etc. they just like living there, they don't really want to be a part of a scene. the cheapness thing makes people put off the move to new york forever too.
i always thought the cheap thing kept people i knew (including me) from trying too hard. you can get cozy working the dumb job and get used to the familiarity and warmth that self-loathing (and even hatred for the city at times) can give you. it was so common for someone to tell me that they were finally moving to new york/san fran/europe and then see them on the street again a couple of months ever. either they missed the cold shoulders or living someplace more cutthroat was a little too much or something. i miss philly.

scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 14 August 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

I'd really like to see Philly extend itself to the world rather than have its best move to NYC though. Someone just needs to put it on the map. I don't think an articles like this will do the trick by themselves. There really is a lot of great art and music in Philly. It just needs a little kick in the ass.

Hurting (Hurting), Sunday, 14 August 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)

I also just like Philly because most of my closest friends have moved there. People go a long way in making a good place to live.

Hurting (Hurting), Sunday, 14 August 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)

well, before i moved, i noticed that the influx of new people really looked like they enjoyed living there! surprise surprise. which is why i'm all for more people moving into the city even if prices go up cuz it keeps a city alive. and new people can show jaded oldies a thing or two. and i agree, i never liked the NOtNewYork tag. I love lots of stuff about philly. and i got to know a bunch of cool people over the years. working in corner stores for over a decade i got to see it all. the good, the bad, & the ugly.

plus, it's remarkable how much the little things can mean. finally being able to eat a slice of fucking pizza at a table on the sidewalk!!! i thought i was in another world!! the city is old and set in its ways, but it is taking baby steps. it is a universe away from the hellishness that i saw in the 80's there.

scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 14 August 2005 21:33 (twenty years ago)

i remember reading a story in the times about boise, idaho, being a haven for fleeing los angeleans (is that the correct word?).

i guess all of america is either a suburb of new york or a suburb of los angeles.

my name is john. i reside in chicago. (frankE), Sunday, 14 August 2005 22:07 (twenty years ago)

disco for toddlers?

teeny (teeny), Sunday, 14 August 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Frank once said NYC was getting to be too much of a "career town," and he preferred San Fran, which he liked to think of as "a big ol' hick town." Lots of big wheels moving (incl. back ) to the South. Yay for the Man Man mention.

don (of man man/love love society), Sunday, 14 August 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)

ed rendell is a new york transplant himself (from brooklyn what's more!), for what it's worth. hecame down to attend u. penn. and villanova law, and just stayed afterwards.

after i finished up at 'nova, i might have stayed IF THERE WERE JOBS. that's gonna be the achilles heal in all this, if anything.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 14 August 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

rendell is a pi lam alumni and refused to give the penn organization cash when they were looking to purchase a new house.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 15 August 2005 02:02 (twenty years ago)

maria, isn't part of the problem also the fact that SEPTA doesn't have a dedicated funding source (which makes funding the system the political football that it is)?

they do have dedicated funding from the state. the problem is not state funding, its SEPTA's management which found itself 65M [i think thats the right number; its late and i dont want to fact check] short this past year. of course, its budget is in the red every year, which is the problem. something's not right in their books.

also, this article does NOT go into the fact that doing a philly-to-NYC commute is STILL pretty expensive (i know, i did it for a year-and-a-half). if you have no car, it's almost $600/month for amtrak -- taking septa to trenton, and then NJ transit from there to NYC penn station is about 1/3 of the price, but a LOT longer and a LOT more likely to fray yer nerves. that ALONE would eat up any savings from renting or owning real estate in philly. and that's not even counting the impact of the commuter tax!

well, there is discounted rail fare through transitchek but thats besides the point. interstate traveling has gotten MUCH better since NJT started the riverline. 1.10$ for the same exact trip the R7 makes -- the only catch is that you pick it up in camden.

ive always thought about taking the chinatown bus to philadelphia one weekend to go to making time and eat lots of cheesesteaks. is there much else to do?

if making time & cheesesteaks are what you consider "fun", stay away. there's so much more to this city than free sparks and gooey meat. we have great parks, the best damn karaoke in the world, incredible restaurants, excellent places to go biking, etc etc etc.

and i used to get a definite vibe from lifers that it was unseemly to try too hard (to get attention, to get ahead, to be too colorful) and it used to bug me, but then i kinda grew to admire the pigheadedness and parochialism of it all.

thats the problem i have with this city -- the moment any band gets national recognition, people become downright vicious. this is not to say they being lovey-dovey is the way to go because healthy criticism is necessary for people to succeed, but the way people get here is enough for me to want to leave.

anyway...

whats interesting is that with this new influx of folks is that there's still a lack of employment. myself and many others are working their shitty jobs [even though i like my job, its shit because its technically part time with no benefits] and not seeing any new opportunities.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 15 August 2005 02:14 (twenty years ago)

the moment any band gets national recognition, people become downright vicious.

Or local recognition, even.

Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 15 August 2005 04:16 (twenty years ago)

i remember reading a story in the times about boise, idaho, being a haven for fleeing los angeleans (is that the correct word?).

The fuck? (talking about this Boise-being-an-escape-for-Los-Angeles-people thing.. not the spelling of people from Los Angeles)

Where is the logic there? Aside from maybe the people fleeing are the ones who are scared of all the MINORITIES OMG!!

donut ferry (donut), Monday, 15 August 2005 04:20 (twenty years ago)

there's kind of a micro-scale new york logic here -- improve the city's image, and you'll eventually have the money to improve the city itself.

I wonder when NYC will start on Part Two of this plan.

The Yellow Kid, Monday, 15 August 2005 04:36 (twenty years ago)

I think the missing piece of the puzzle for Philadelphia is the jobs. Without that, "improving the image" can only go so far.

Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 15 August 2005 04:43 (twenty years ago)

I don't like when people have to proselytize their actions like they are the second coming. This is sort of an inherent fallacy of it being a cheesy NYT Sunday Style article, but still. Why can't people just move where the want to move without feeling the need to make a cause out of it? Move wherever you want -- just don't feel that you have some moral authority on account of it. I fear I am coming dangerously close to Nick and Sarah's position on the New York is for Sell Outs thread. Not that any city in itself is for sell outs, but why do people need form these city cliques??

Mary (Mary), Monday, 15 August 2005 04:49 (twenty years ago)

Are the WaWas gonna be super expensive now? Mary is right though...those idiots who had to build the movetophilly website demonstrate everything that would be working against its attraction. Okay so you found a place you like thats cheaper and yet creative, thats great...but why do you need to feel justified in yr opinions only if other "ppl from williamsburg" see the light and move there w/ you?

Vichitravirya XI (Vichitravirya XI), Monday, 15 August 2005 05:33 (twenty years ago)

always thought the cheap thing kept people i knew (including me) from trying too hard. you can get cozy working the dumb job and get used to the familiarity and warmth that self-loathing (and even hatred for the city at times) can give you. it was so common for someone to tell me that they were finally moving to new york/san fran/europe and then see them on the street again a couple of months ever. - this is so otm its funny; one of my best friends live there and has been talking to moving out west for two years now, about every other week... but just got a new job and despite whining abt how much she sometimes hates it, is goin to stay.

Vichitravirya XI (Vichitravirya XI), Monday, 15 August 2005 05:36 (twenty years ago)

http://www.newhopeinternational.org/assets/Orphans-waving-goodbye.jpg

IF YOU CAN NOT MAKE IT IN NEW YORK AND HAVE TO LEAVE YOU SUCK BECAUSE ANYONE CAN SELL ANYTHING HERE. THANK YOU FOR THINNING OUT THE REAL ESTATE MARKET WITH YOUR DEPARTURE.

The Original Jimmy Mod: A Negro (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Monday, 15 August 2005 05:41 (twenty years ago)

mmmmmm cheesesteaks.

xpost

kephm (kephm), Monday, 15 August 2005 05:45 (twenty years ago)

Last time I was in in Philly (november 2004) they were talking, quite seriously, about closing down all public transport due to a hole in the budget. Anything happen with that?

Hello Sunshine (Hello Sunshine), Monday, 15 August 2005 09:46 (twenty years ago)

those idiots who had to build the movetophilly website demonstrate everything that would be working against its attraction.

"those idiots" happen to be good friends of mine. ive been psyched about l4ris & k3ndra moving here for several months. they're good people, completely enthusiastic about this city and its possibilities -- the kind of folks this city needs. if they can attract likeminded people, then its cool. however, pr3$$l3r's article stands to attract shitheads who will price citizens it really needs out of places to live.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 15 August 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

re: SEPTA shutdown in 2004 -- that was what the organization was threatening to do if rendell didnt give them the money to make their budget break even. it could have never happened because many commuters would have lost their jobs if the trains werent running and a class action lawsuit would have been made against SEPTA.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 15 August 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

ps about l4ris -- he used to live in philly, moved to nyc and is now moving back. so he's a different case than the others in this article.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 15 August 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

three weeks pass...
oh well, so much for THIS trend.

who the FUCK would pay $1G for this monthly commute?!? when i was doing it, it was approx. $570/month.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 10 September 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

so the chick who wrote this article just moved to brooklyn, or something.

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 10 September 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

four years pass...

Is it fucked up that I am SO GLAD I WILL NOT SEE ANOTHER FUCKING DUCK BUS for a while?

the aztec mystic pizza (Stevie D), Saturday, 10 July 2010 21:26 (fifteen years ago)

I remember when the Pixies announced their reunion tour, the four (six?) NYC shows sold out in minutes. People were reselling them for hundreds of bucks. The Philadelphia (actually Camden) show still had tickets available two weeks before the concert. I have some sense that people in LOLNewYork don't even know Philadelphia exists, let alone that it's less than two hours away.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 10 July 2010 21:32 (fifteen years ago)

Philly -> New York = $20 round-trip, 2h each way via Chinatown/Bolt/Megabus. I do it every other week, actually. It's pretty amazing how so many ppl are oblivious to how close they really are, and how easily accessible one is from the other.

the aztec mystic pizza (Stevie D), Saturday, 10 July 2010 21:37 (fifteen years ago)


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