Crows, Rooks, Ravens, Jackdaws, Jays and Magpies

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Caw caw caw

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Magpies! Oh yes! We saw some on the walk on Saturday - I saw only their long tails from a distance and thought they might be pheasant or grouse but then I got a better look at them (and TGL corrected me). I like Magpies. I feel we have a lot in common.

Crows, rooks and ravens I have a lot of problems telling apart. What are those giant black birds that hang out on Blackheath? I don't like them, they're clearly evil.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I think the huge big ones with the shaggy black feathers halfway down their legs are rooks. The slightly smaller ones are ravens, the smaller ones again are crows. Jackdaws are skinnier than crows and can imitate human speech and other noises.

We get a lot of magpies round my way but I've never seen a jay. Don't think we have them here.

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:46 (eighteen years ago) link

I know that we had bluejays in Connecticut. It was lovely to go birdwatching there - bright blue jays and enourmous CRIMSON cardinals. British birds aren't quite as gaudy. I like the Magpies because they have those shiny flashy white feathers in their tails and I like shiny flashy things - rather like Magpies themselves.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:48 (eighteen years ago) link

fukken magpies tryin to swoop me when i be walkin on the mean streets of adelaide

well i got my gun out and shot those sqwakin fuckers

ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:49 (eighteen years ago) link

When I was growing up in Cornwall the most common cry was that of the Chough, a small, cliff-dwelling crow with a v. distinctive call. I rather miss them.

Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:49 (eighteen years ago) link

A rook:

http://website.lineone.net/~ssleightholm/dict/glossary/rook.jpg

I love this rhyme:

One for sorrow, two for joy
Three for a girl, four for a boy
Five for silver, six for gold
And seven for a secret that can't be told.

I always thought it went on... or maybe it was a variant that went something like

Eight for England, Nine for France
Ten for a wedding, X for a dance...

It was in a picture book I had as a child.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:50 (eighteen years ago) link

I can only find American pictures of Ravens and Jays. :-(

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:52 (eighteen years ago) link

At my primary school nobody could ever remember past "four for a boy" so I had great fun convincing them what the other numbers were for "five for a bus", "nine for YOUR MUM" etc. I was eight at the time.

Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Ravens are the largest of the corvids in the UK, rooks and carrion crows are about the same size, but rooks have much glossier feathers and a rounded dome on their heads. Jackdaws are the little fellers. Jays are the brightly coloured dudes, really quite shy, but noisy as hell. There's also the hooded crow which you get in Ireland and parts of Scotland instead of the carrion crow.

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 07:58 (eighteen years ago) link

I've never seen a cough before either.

Our birds are pretty dull, but then there's the Kingfisher. Alas, I have never seen a kingfisher either.

Perhaps Ravens are the huge shaggy fellas.

My school was called Ravenspark because the trees surrounding it were hoaching with ravens, rooks, crows etc. I like hooded crows. One day I'll train an army of them to hang around me and look menacing.

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:01 (eighteen years ago) link

I've always loved the collective noun for ravens and crows

Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Here is a crow:

http://www.copyright-free-pictures.org.uk/animals/birds/carrion-crow-in-flight.jpg

Man, they even *look* evil.

(I found an albino crow, too, but the site wouldn't allow linkage.)

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:02 (eighteen years ago) link

THERE'S BEEN A MURDER!!!

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Magpies can be evil: one nearly stole my jumper when I was about five. Conclusion: they are shifty burgularers. They are nice to look at but stay away from them.

We have lots of lovely little native birds in our garden like Honey-eaters which look a bit like hummingbirds. We get very cross when the cats decide to *play* with them.

saleXander / sophie (salexander), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Do the rumours of avian flu among the Tower of London's ravens spell DISASTER FOR BRITAIN?!?!?

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:06 (eighteen years ago) link

I was always fascinated with tales of magpies supposedly pinching shiny objects so I was always leaving stuff in the garden for them, you know, Matchbox cars and milk bottle tops and stuff, but to no avail. Alas, never tried a jumper. Was it a shiny one?

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:11 (eighteen years ago) link

I think magpies and I would get in a fight over shiny things and dangly earrings and things. There was a magpie in one of the Greene Knowe books that saved the day by discovering something shiny.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:12 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost Sadly no. It was red and white. It could have just been a mean practical joke and that's how they get their kicks. It was a caged one so it could have also just been incredibly bored. Oh poor thing actually, the little caged birdie. But other birds are known to *borrow* various items for their nests. LIke doesn't the Bower bird steal blue things for a bit of DIY home renovation?

On another note, there's fireworks outside!

saleXander / sophie (salexander), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:15 (eighteen years ago) link

I read an article in one of those mags you get in waiting rooms, Take a Break, or Chat, or Twee, something like that. Twas an old man, his wife had lost her engaement ring while gardening years and years ago.

She died, and the day after her funeral the old chap was sitting in the garden when a magpie dropped something on the path. It went 'ting!' Old chap tottered over to investigate and discovered it was his wifes ring.

He thinks the magpie stole the ring years ago and then felt guilty about it.

Awwww......

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:22 (eighteen years ago) link

I like smart bird

Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:25 (eighteen years ago) link

This shows Betty just completing a trial in a "folk physics" experiment.

What *is* folk physics? It sounds like the COOLEST THING EVAH!!!

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 08:29 (eighteen years ago) link

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Folk_physics

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Ha ha, I prefer Cartoon Physics:

If someone runs off a cliff, gravity has no effect until he or she notices their error.
Everything falls faster than an anvil (the fundamental principle of anvilology).
No matter what happens to cats, they always return to their default shapes.
A large amount of explosives, even if detonated close to a character's face, will only cause scorching of the skin.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:27 (eighteen years ago) link

These dudes are all over Richmond Park - them and deer:

http://www.stockhillhouse.co.uk/jackdaw.jpg

I also saw a raven attack and start to eat a crow in Richmond Park while all the crow's mates were divebombing the raven. It was cool.

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I remember reading something about how the Blackheath ravens (or are they crows? I can't tell the difference!) have learned to jump up and down on the common because the worms think that it's raining and come out.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:33 (eighteen years ago) link

Brilliant! I wish I could find the Hollywood one - the L shaped bedsheet?

ie: when a man and a woman are lying in bed the sheet will cover him from the waist down but will cover the woman up to the armpits

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Blackbirds do that, I think.

x-post

Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:35 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost Smart birds. I always thought it was cool that birdies are miniature dinosaurs.

saleXander / sophie (salexander), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:36 (eighteen years ago) link

ravens have clumpier beaks, slighly larger, and sometimes go a bit greyer. so my farmer colleague tells me anyway

Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Seagulls dance too to bring up the worms. It's rather comical.

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:43 (eighteen years ago) link

a magpie just hopped along the gutter of the building 10 feet away. i like them. second time today i've seen a single magpie. is that two lots of sorrow or one of joy?

ravenscourt park often has a posse of crows just wandering about menacingly. wormwood scrubs was full of the bastards last year when i went, about 100 of them i reckon. i like them too. (um, maybe the crows in ravenscourt park are ravens? they are very large)

saw a confused woodpecker perched on a lightning conductor on friday.

only time i've seen a blue jay was in Big Sur. was very tame, hopping around picking stuff off abandoned plates. was very blue.

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Why did you visit Wormwood Scrubs?

Rumpie, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 09:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Wormword Scrubs is a park. there just happens to be a prison next to it... 8)

http://scrubs.ground-level.org/lnr/

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 10:07 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.filmcliches.com/

Rumpie, Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Kate, I only know that rhyme as "one for peter, two for paul, three for him who made us all". But I only know it from a Peter, Paul & Mary song! Ditto for The Three Ravens, oh so sad.


Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Grackles: worst blackbird ever.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:29 (eighteen years ago) link

laurel, the magpie song was theme to top seventies kids program over here (unsuprisingly called 'Magpie') which is why all english people know it and why they know the version they do.

here are a bunch of alternatives: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2000/oct2000/countingcrows.html

the magpie was back again today. i think i might have to start encouraging it with mealworms.

koogs (koogs), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Aw, you people have the cutest television theme songs. It just makes me want to pinch all your little cheekbones and squeal loudly.

I may have seen a crow or blackbird at some point but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a raven. Do we even have ravens in the US? Should look it up.

Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Ravens in the US? Yes. Around Oregon they tend to hang out away from people in the backwoods. Their cawing is much more gutteral than crows - a deep croaking noise. They are, without a doubt, as smart as all get out.

Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 20 October 2005 16:03 (eighteen years ago) link

the names in the title look so nice in a row like that.

jones (actual), Thursday, 20 October 2005 16:43 (eighteen years ago) link

two years pass...

HOLY SHIT, CROWS TALK!

I was walking around with friends after having a drink or two yesterday in my neighborhood. We pass under a crow, and I yell out "HELLO, CROW! :-D". A few seconds pass, then really loudly, the crow sounded back in this distorted robotic voice "Heeeee-LO". Then we all turned around and went WTF at each other.

I said "HELLO" again. The crow said "HeEeEeE-LO" again.

I had no fucking idea.

Mackro Mackro, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:13 (fifteen years ago) link

Corvids are the smartest damn things in the world.

I was thinking the other day, the thing I miss the most about Idaho is magpies.

Abbott, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:19 (fifteen years ago) link

Yes, I knew this from reading George RR Martin books in which some crows talk. I learned everything I ever knew from genre lit.

Laurel, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:20 (fifteen years ago) link

You should read Mind of the Raven, Mackro. And everyone else. They roll down snowy hills together, playing and scooping snow at one another. They talk, too.

Abbott, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:24 (fifteen years ago) link

Ca-CAWWW ca-CAWW

elmo argonaut, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:25 (fifteen years ago) link

I was thinking the other day, the thing I miss the most about Idaho is magpies.

I guess I can see missing them - I kind of miss seagulls now that they aren't around all the time - but magpies are so annoying. Especially when you have a flock of them squawking right outside your bedroom window early in the morning.

It is kind of awesome to watch a crew of magpies battle a red-tailed hawk though.

joygoat, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:32 (fifteen years ago) link

I liked waking up to all the magpies.

Abbott, Monday, 18 August 2008 19:53 (fifteen years ago) link

here is a neat talk about crows: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of_crows.html

rrrobyn, Monday, 18 August 2008 20:04 (fifteen years ago) link

Who on earth was TGL?

Where was this thread when Mark H, Johnny B and I were arguing about whether the massive black birds on Hampstead Heath were crows or rooks?

Where there's crows, that's a rock. Where there's a rook, that's a crow.

I'm so confused. WHITE SPOT. WHITE SPOT ON BEAK = ROOK. Is that the rule of thumb? (or beak as the case may be?)

Masonic Boom, Monday, 18 August 2008 20:20 (fifteen years ago) link

crazy story albvivertine :-/

there's tons of crows around, some in the trees in front of my place. Yeah they're smart and their face recognition is pretty nuts.

Week of Wonders (Ross), Saturday, 29 July 2017 01:49 (six years ago) link

one of my friends has a pet magpie, and she's amazing (she lives in taranaki, albvivertine) - super friendly, loves to be petted, will happily snuggle. she was found in a forest, fell out of her nest quite young, i think? and some forest ranger dude gave her to my friend to look after, and she's just stuck around. they also have a tripod cat and big old german shepherd (cop school reject), and she chases them both around.

just1n3, Saturday, 29 July 2017 04:26 (six years ago) link

Oh I'd love that.

albvivertine, Saturday, 29 July 2017 04:48 (six years ago) link

Not sure if I can link to instagram but here's a photo of me hanging out with Yoda and trying really hard not to laugh

https://instagram.com/p/BMiZO9rFtkFLsIqYFoOydKd-7qsoCUj3fCeKPw0/

just1n3, Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:41 (six years ago) link

^ that's great

Week of Wonders (Ross), Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:51 (six years ago) link

Fake magpie.

(I find it odd how different the birds with the same names in UK and US usually are)

koogs, Saturday, 29 July 2017 17:53 (six years ago) link

That photo was taken in New Zealand!

just1n3, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:00 (six years ago) link

(and Australasia)

Oh, American and European magpies are related but the Australian ones are unrelated and aren't corvids.

koogs, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:02 (six years ago) link

Sorry, that sounded more dismissive than i meant it to be.

English magpies are, for something that it just black and white, quite striking in a way the others don't seem to be (based on photos I've seen)

(Sat here watching Godzilla 1984 i can hear one outside somewhere)

koogs, Saturday, 29 July 2017 18:15 (six years ago) link

Timely!

Hilarity Winner (doo dah), Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:02 (six years ago) link

Nice. You can see the iridescence on the wings which makes them look slightly blue.

Oh, there was a guy with about 30 crows around him in Hyde park this afternoon, feeding them something.

koogs, Saturday, 29 July 2017 20:44 (six years ago) link

This is a typical view when eating lunch on clapham common. No crumbs from me, pals.

http://i.imgur.com/6VeZgEv.jpg

The XX pants (ledge), Monday, 31 July 2017 12:53 (six years ago) link

Tom, that link is insane

Week of Wonders (Ross), Tuesday, 1 August 2017 04:30 (six years ago) link

great doc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89C5gsdaSXg

Week of Wonders (Ross), Friday, 11 August 2017 06:05 (six years ago) link

I fucking love crows

-_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, 11 August 2017 06:45 (six years ago) link

Photo from Clapham common also seems to be behaviour during storms here and after it's rained. Do they eat worms? Would seem to be the one likely explanation for them doing that here since there are rarely p[eople around when I see them doing that.

Also really interesting watching interplay of different bird species around teh marketplace on Sunday when it becomes more of a food court.
Tend to be some kind of corvid, seagulls and pigeons. Corvid which is probably a crow has intelligence and can open closed food containers i.e. can undo the catch on the plastic food tray that my Indian takeaway running friend uses or can work out where to peck through on a plastic tray among other skills. Seagulls have apparently learnt how to peck through food trays from the crows. Pigeons seem to need food to be placed in front of them for it to register.
Wondering now if that is over-domestication or something.

Stevolende, Friday, 11 August 2017 08:39 (six years ago) link

Crows tap the ground to simulate rain so worms come up, yeah

Week of Wonders (Ross), Friday, 11 August 2017 18:32 (six years ago) link

nine months pass...

There's a tree along my driveway that's dense enough to keep out most predators so for the second season running, the local scrub jays have used it for their HQ nest. They like grabbing pieces of dead flowers from my dining room window, but split as soon as we're done regarding each other and I try to take a photo. This one is through the kitchen window.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1735/41667779635_369c0f504a_k.jpg

Elvis Telecom, Friday, 8 June 2018 02:08 (five years ago) link

i saw a sunbathing crow last friday. the path i was on went within 6ft of it and it just sat there not caring.

koogs, Friday, 8 June 2018 08:37 (five years ago) link

nine months pass...

https://t.co/6phuVtAlEK

koogs, Monday, 25 March 2019 18:51 (five years ago) link

^ crows leave gifts for people who feed them

koogs, Monday, 25 March 2019 18:52 (five years ago) link

Living in the land of ravens rn. Truly aliens among us.

cheese canopy (map), Tuesday, 26 March 2019 23:45 (five years ago) link

how have i not seen this thread before

i regularly (once a week) pass through clapham common almost at the exact spot from where ledge's photo was taken. the crows of clapham common are a most fascinating and abundant community

love any revelation of corvids' vast intelligence

PPL+AI=NS (imago), Tuesday, 26 March 2019 23:57 (five years ago) link

Broken image link from 13 years ago...

> These dudes are all over Richmond Park

Jackdaws. Was amazed at how many jackdaws I saw in Richmond park and how they don't care about you being 5ft away. Didn't think I'd seen a jackdaw before then until my dad pointed out that all the pairs of birds sat on the chimney pots around home were jackdaws. (At that distance it's hard to guess how big they are and in silhouette you don't get to see the giveaway grey heads)

koogs, Wednesday, 27 March 2019 03:49 (five years ago) link

there's nothing more enigmatic and honestly disturbing than being out in the desert wilderness with hardly any signs of animal life for minutes at a time and hearing or spotting a single raven usually perched in a place that has a quality of absurd obviousness to it as if it wants to communicate some kind of cosmic joke to you, and then feeling yourself being watched by it as you pass. it seems to have both an understanding of what space and placement mean in the context of the human world and an otherness to its intelligence that falls outside of it.

cheese canopy (map), Wednesday, 27 March 2019 03:57 (five years ago) link

i saw hi to my crows daily. no gifts but we cool

alomar lines, Wednesday, 27 March 2019 06:45 (five years ago) link

Same! A pair of crows has been living on top of our office building for a couple of years, directly above me it turns out. They hop around the parking lot most of the day (we're next to a supermarket, plenty of food to be found on the ground). They'll get out of the way when a car approaches or take the high road esp when esp kids walk by, but they're completely cool with me. We'll exchange glances in a 'howdy neighbour' kind of way. It's one of those small daily pleasures tbh

Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 27 March 2019 12:38 (five years ago) link

I caw back at my local crows when I hear them cawing. I hope they know that means I think they're cool. I want to start throwing them peanuts or something, but am concerned about what might happen if I decided to stop.

☮ (peace, man), Wednesday, 27 March 2019 13:10 (five years ago) link

jackdaw is an alltime great bird name

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 27 March 2019 15:54 (five years ago) link

crows are good, I love them

moose; squirrel (silby), Wednesday, 27 March 2019 16:59 (five years ago) link

want to submit that grackles are good, some Austinites have expressed a sort of exhausted loathing for grackles, but on my one visit I was charmed by them

moose; squirrel (silby), Wednesday, 27 March 2019 17:00 (five years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Grackles are awesome, they may not have corvid brains but I love them

Booming map post re raven placement

valet doberman (Jon not Jon), Friday, 12 April 2019 22:30 (five years ago) link

Recently moved to a high-up place where crows perch in the treetops outside. Wish I could open up the windows and invite them in, but our neighbors are total narcs and would rat us out to management.

cat, Friday, 26 April 2019 04:00 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

A magpie came and sat on my (open) window just now - I think it trying to work out how to get into my room.

John Harris is a Guardian columnist (Tom D.), Friday, 14 June 2019 19:02 (four years ago) link

you and your twinkly trinkets

mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 19:07 (four years ago) link

Yeah I've had a couple of them doing that recently too

Something's going down

Number None, Friday, 14 June 2019 19:19 (four years ago) link

When we were in Istanbul the place was full of hooded crows and you’d see them attacking - and seeing off - seagulls that were easily three times their size. Fearless lads.

stress tweeting (gyac), Friday, 14 June 2019 19:20 (four years ago) link

since moving to a city where crows dive bomb pedestrians during mating season and caw aggressively at every passerby, i don’t love crows so much

flopson, Friday, 14 June 2019 19:37 (four years ago) link

Definitely the lesser evil where seagulls are concerned.

stress tweeting (gyac), Friday, 14 June 2019 19:39 (four years ago) link

Crows harrass hawks and eagles here (PNW) , follow them around and caw and just bug them. Funny from a distance!

alomar lines, Friday, 14 June 2019 19:53 (four years ago) link

three years pass...

Raven Joins Road Trip, Drafts Off Car for 45 Minutes

A couple driving along a lonely stretch of snowy Canadian highway had some unexpected company — a raven that used their car’s draft to hitch a ride for 45 minutes.

Alex Lavoie, Jodi Young, and their cat were driving from a job in the Yukon back home to British Columbia when an enterprising avian swooped in front of their car, spread its wings, and soared along in front of them for the better part of an hour. Lavoie couldn’t quite believe his eyes.

After about 25 minutes, Lavoie and Young stopped to feed their feline, and to their surprise, the raven joined them in their pit stop. The couple tossed the bird some cat treats, then all four travelers got back on the road. The clever Corvid drafted along for another 20 minutes or so before flying off with another member of its species.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Eu_3j8-uwM

Elvis Telecom, Thursday, 22 December 2022 03:12 (one year ago) link

eight months pass...

two gangs of four pies on the way out to the shops and back again: perhaps the same gang twice (?) silently but gleamingly letting me know that IT'S A BOY

tho not where i might meet him or how i might (*creepy pinocchio voice*) become him

mark s, Thursday, 7 September 2023 12:00 (seven months ago) link

got to say when these gentlemen have promised me JOY they've rarely delivered

School of RAAC (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 7 September 2023 12:01 (seven months ago) link

magLIE moar liek

mark s, Thursday, 7 September 2023 12:05 (seven months ago) link

I recently saw a magpie absolutely torment a big dumb seagull who was sitting in a pool of water that the magpie wanted. After a while the seagull grumped off, it was a joy to behold.

Tim, Thursday, 7 September 2023 12:10 (seven months ago) link

the internet is trying to convince me that the magpie's call is "wock wock wock-a-wock, wock pjur, weer weer"

mark s, Thursday, 7 September 2023 12:13 (seven months ago) link

there was an almighty cachinnation of jays in a client's garden earlier. yesterday two jackdaws let me walk right past them. they're waiting for their moment I swear

imago, Thursday, 7 September 2023 12:26 (seven months ago) link

In Canberra visiting my brother, a small grey butcher bird came and sat on the chair beside me for a few minutes at eye level. I wasn’t sure if it was interested by me or deciding whether to take my eye out. Magic experience. It flew a short way away into a tree and I cut a scrap of steak for it, which it caught off the bounce.

assert (matttkkkk), Thursday, 7 September 2023 13:25 (seven months ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.