William Holden - Classic or Dud?

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Humphrey Bogart's air: detached, cynical, slightly rancid -- and, as he prostituted himself in ever more dispiriting projects, very rancid. Like Bogart, he starred in very few classic films, but here's a list of the great performances: Sunset Boulevard, The Bridge On The River Kwai, The Country Girl, Stalag 17(a film I detest), The Wild Bunch, and, of course, Network, who, in a cast giving career-high performances, probably deserved the Oscar more than Peter Finch.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)

Classic

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)

extremely classic

― jagged little filly (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:19 (twenty years ago)

Even his death was classic.

― General Doinel (Charles McCain), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:20 (twenty years ago)

That sounds really horrible.

― General Doinel (Charles McCain), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

Don't forget "The Big Sleep" to add to his classicness.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:23 (twenty years ago)

...by which of course I mean, "The Long Goodbye."

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:24 (twenty years ago)

executive suite, casino royale, sabrina

― jagged little filly (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:26 (twenty years ago)

Shit, I'm thinking of Sterling Hayden. Never mind.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:26 (twenty years ago)

Wasn't there TWO Ricky Schroeder films? The Champ and The Earthling?

― andy --, Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:27 (twenty years ago)

Anyway:

William Holden: Classic

Sterling Hayden: also classic.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

Didn't he stumble drunkenly? around a room, bang his head on something, and die of a concussion?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:39 (twenty years ago)

Problematically classic, Sabrina being part of the problem. I slightly prefer Glenn Ford, a guy I always get him confused with,?and the charming sociopaths that he plays

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:42 (twenty years ago)

Re:Death-Yeah, he hit his head whilst home alone. Had somebody been with him, he may have made it.

― General Doinel (Charles McCain), Thursday, 27 October 2005 23:42 (twenty years ago)

http://www.askinman.com/Lucy%20&%20William%20Holden.jpg

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 28 October 2005 00:23 (twenty years ago)

Glenn Ford! Sort of the B-version of Henry Fonda.

Holden, classic (made LOTS of bad movies among the good ones) Picnic? or am I thinking of State Fair, anyway an Inge play.

― steve ketchup, Friday, 28 October 2005 05:09 (twenty years ago)

Holden was very classic - Sunset Boulevard and Stalag 17 are ample to put anyone in that category.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 28 October 2005 10:44 (twenty years ago)

Picnic, yes. No love for Young Bill? Golden Boy, Our Town?

>The Bridge On The River Kwai

His character and perf are utterly undistinguished in this one.

S.O.B. (his last film, not him -- then again he was Ron Reagan's best man at his marriage to Nancy).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Why do you detest Stalag 17, Alfred?

William Holden - absolute classic. Wonderful in Sabrina, despite it not being a particularly good film. Fantastically menacing in The Wild Bunch, and Sunset Boulevard is one of my very favourite films.

Didn't he have excellent huge glasses in Towering Inferno?

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Friday, 28 October 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

It's crude and stupid in a way that only Billy Wilder can be; and it's such a gross commercialization of Grand Illusion that it's unwatchable.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 28 October 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, film comedy sure has classed up its act from Wilder to "Road Trip."

I'm betting Alfred isn't a Hogan's Heroes fan.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 October 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)

"crude and stupid in a way that only Billy Wilder can be" - alfred have you seen ANY comedies made since, um, 1970?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 28 October 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)

You guys are getting too sensitive. The problem with Wilder is that most of his films, even the great ones, aren't as clever as he thinks they are. And, yeah, I will take "Hogan's Heroes" over Kiss Me, Stupid, Stalag 17, The Major & The Minor, The Fortune Cookie, or The Front Page.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 29 October 2005 15:06 (twenty years ago)

Hey the only outright dud there is The Front Page... even if the others are second-rate. He was still cleverer than any peers but Lubitsch.

Alfred thinks Cary Grant is the greatest film actor, so I think crude comedies are the ones without tuxes and cocktails.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 29 October 2005 15:16 (twenty years ago)

Nowhere in Wilder do you get a sense -- as you do in Sturges, Lubitsch, or Hawks -- that he was interested in the way human beings listen to each other. I guess the closest he came was in the Mitchell Leisen-directed Midnight and Double Indemnity.

Alfred thinks Cary Grant is the greatest film actor, so I think crude comedies are the ones without tuxes and cocktails.

Dude, if only Owen Wilson wore a cumberbund more often...

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 29 October 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

"...that he was interested in the way human beings listen to each other. "

What do you mean here? I'm a big Sturges fan, but I think Wilder's movies are a lot more fun, with the possible exception of Sullivan's Travels. (I'm not sure why they get lumped together, anyway, apart from the tuxes, the black and white, and the funny. And Wilder does black comedy a lot better: compare Ace in the Hole to Unfaithfully Yours, which has a comedic tin ear.)

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Saturday, 29 October 2005 15:45 (twenty years ago)

Obv I shoulda said Sturges was up there too... but cmon, Wilder got accused of being "too cynical to believe his own cynicism" by Andrew Sarris (who later recanted) for his generally upbeat, positive feelings toward his heroes. He famously said "I'm a curdled romantic, not a cynic."

>Nowhere in Wilder do you get a sense ..that he was interested in the way human beings listen to each other.<

The Apartment! And beyond the comedies, Double Indemnity. (Wilder messes up most often at showing 'pure' virtue, ie the hideous courtship of the girl scriptreader in Sunset Blvd.) Also, the way people manipulate and talk past each other can be funny/rich too. BW probably did more (besides vaudevillians like the Marx Bros) to introduce 'Jewish humor' into Hollywood comedies than anyone pre-Mel Brooks. And yeah it's vulgar, thank God.

Chuck is obv way off on Unfaithfully Yours! Search Edgar Kennedy... Ace in the Hole is hardly in the same genre.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 00:21 (twenty years ago)

The Apartment, like Double Indemnity, are both great movies despite their faults. Both have in common Wilder's disinterest in the supporting cast: think of the disgraceful performances by Stanwyck's daughter and husband in the latter, and everyone else besides McMurray, Lemmon, and MacLaine in the former. He wasn't Sturges, or even much of a director: he was a scriptwriter who had points to plot on a graph. This is why Cameron Crowe's book is so sad, despite some great pungent remarks by Wilder himself. Crowe extolls Wilder for virtues Wilder never had.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 04:16 (twenty years ago)

i really, honestly can't see how sturges (who i love) is any less of a "scriptwriter who had points to plot on a graph" than wilder. maybe sturges did have a better hand with the minor characters (he probably had more memorable ones than any director in history), but the lead performances in wilder's films tend to be strong enough that i really can't see this as any more than a pretty minor flaw.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 31 October 2005 04:45 (twenty years ago)

I remember Bill Holden. He wasn't Billy Wilder. I don't think they even slept with the same women. BTW, he's classic.

― Aimless (Aimless), Monday, 31 October 2005 05:58 (twenty years ago)

>the disgraceful performances by everyone else besides McMurray, Lemmon, and MacLaine in [The Apartment]<

I think highly of Jack Kruschen ("Sometimes it's a twi-night doubleheader"), Ray Walston and Edie Adams there. SHTICK is not disgraceful in comedies. I'd call the alleged "disinterest" the sense
of keeping the narrative streamlined to 2 protagonists and an antagonist.

Back to Stalag 17 -- I was kinda shocked to discover on La Grande Illusione's last re-release that while quite fine, it's not one of Renoir's greats. Goofing on von Stroheim with another acting director (Preminger) playing a commandant is a nice jape.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

four months pass...

I love this thread.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 13 March 2006 00:50 (twenty years ago)

"Wilder's disinterest in the supporting cast: think of the disgraceful performances"

perhaps some truth, but FILM directing is so much more than how one handles actors or providing a platform for their performances. Go to the theatre more if that's your thing - frankly, acting is one of the least interesting things about movies, if I may generalize with abandon.

― stella adler, Monday, 13 March 2006 01:25 (twenty years ago)

DUD

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 13 March 2006 01:29 (twenty years ago)

frankly, acting is one of the least interesting things about movies, if I may generalize with abandon.

Obviously you don't know fun.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 13 March 2006 01:36 (twenty years ago)

blount plz elaborate!

unless you meant "acting is one of the least interesting things about movies" = dud.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 13 March 2006 01:49 (twenty years ago)

o yeah well that's obviously dud. acting's maybe the only reliably interesting thing about movies in general, nearly everything else about them can be found in better form elsewhere. anyhow holden = dud generally for me cuz he reminds me of network, the death of hollywood (ie. the 50s), and too many bad bad billy wilder flix (that he's in so many of them but not in any of the troika i like - apartment/kissmestupid/one,two,three - must mean something). he's good in the wild bunch i guess (although still far from my fave performance there) and he's generally smart enough to stay out of the way in born yesterday but in general i gotta side with lil audrey hepburn and say 'gimme bogart'.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 13 March 2006 07:19 (twenty years ago)

ugh i forgot he was in network! that's almost enough to nudge anyone into dud territory. still best "i love lucy" guest appearance ever, though.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 13 March 2006 07:39 (twenty years ago)

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/rfl/images/lol.jpg

― stella adler, Monday, 13 March 2006 07:50 (twenty years ago)

WOT MORE CAN U TEECH ME, DRUNKIE?

― stella adler, Monday, 13 March 2006 08:24 (twenty years ago)

classic for his chin alone

― amateurist0, Monday, 13 March 2006 08:48 (twenty years ago)

How can you dismiss his performance in Network? It's a classic example of a smart actor making an impossible character interesting.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 13 March 2006 12:08 (twenty years ago)

acting's maybe the only reliably interesting thing about movies in general, nearly everything else about them can be found in better form elsewhere.

No.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Monday, 13 March 2006 12:16 (twenty years ago)

Well alright. If the acting involves, like, Edith Massey or Faye Dunaway or Grace Jones or Charles Laughton, then maybe yes.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Monday, 13 March 2006 12:27 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...

Bill is quite fine in The Counterfeit Traitor, a WW2 espionage drama that goes easy on the phony heroics.

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 2 July 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

Unfaithfully Yours, which has a comedic tin ear.

RONG

― Oilyrags, Monday, 2 July 2007 13:32 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

Lincoln Center series for 2 weeks:

http://filmlinc.com/wrt/onsale/williamholden/program.html

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 3 July 2008 13:59 (seventeen years ago)

remember this one?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51075ZH13HL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 3 July 2008 14:05 (seventeen years ago)

mercifully no

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 3 July 2008 14:08 (seventeen years ago)

never seen Breezy or Fedora.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, 3 July 2008 14:17 (seventeen years ago)

just saw the I Love Lucy with holden the other day

― n/a, Thursday, 3 July 2008 14:20 (seventeen years ago)

Fedora ain't bad, sort of The King of Comedy to Sunset Blvd's Taxi Driver (only nowhere as great as KoC).

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 3 July 2008 14:23 (seventeen years ago)

THE HORSE SOLDIERS!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052902/

magnifique!

― the pinefox, Thursday, 3 July 2008 14:39 (seventeen years ago)

St Bill of Illinois:

http://www.movingimagesource.us/articles/st-bill-of-illinois-20080702

I'm def gonna hit The Bridges at Toko-Ri.

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 3 July 2008 16:30 (seventeen years ago)

four years pass...

Saw Picnic today for the first time. Not a great print, and I had to put up with the guy three seats over eating his popcorn one kernel at a time for the first hour, but fascinating. It belongs to a genre of '50s films that creeps me out--that could almost be viewed as horror films--and that seem to have some self-awareness to one degree or another about how horrifying this moment in time is. Especially the whole picnic sequence, right up to and including the famous jitterbug--fantastic ten minutes. (After the dance, hysteria sets in.) I also always think "Thank god for rock and roll" when I look at films like this, and even though the play was probably well known before anybody had ever heard of Elvis, you could almost view Holden as an Elvis stand-in. That speech that the neighbour gives near the end about how predictable everything thing was till this force blew into town made me think of Elvis.

― clemenza, Sunday, 8 July 2012 20:33 (thirteen years ago)

It belongs to a genre of '50s films that creeps me out--that could almost be viewed as horror films--

haha -- otm

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 8 July 2012 22:29 (thirteen years ago)

it was a big-deal play, u know

― Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 8 July 2012 22:54 (thirteen years ago)

o i c you mentioned that. You can certainly see commonality w/ something else Inge wrote about hormones, Splendor in the Grass.

― Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 8 July 2012 22:55 (thirteen years ago)

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