A question for the homosexuals of ILX

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Top or bottom?

― Edmund White, Friday, 28 October 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

Sideways

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 28 October 2005 10:51 (twenty years ago)

Serious question - what's the cultural/sociological significance/history behing the camp/lispy/high-pitched voice that is affected by some homosexuals?

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 28 October 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

It's his fault:

http://www.distantechoes.com/history/grayson/lgrayson.jpg

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 28 October 2005 10:56 (twenty years ago)

i like handjobs the best.

― anthony, Friday, 28 October 2005 10:58 (twenty years ago)

It isn't the kind of question that can be easily answered, "Edmund". The best thing to do would be to try both ways yourself, and see which you like best. You can tell us when you've made your mind up.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 28 October 2005 11:03 (twenty years ago)

Actually, Mark, a lot of people trace it back to this gentleman:

http://www.oddbooks.co.uk/harris/wilde1882.jpg

I suppose he became seen as the quintessential homosexual for a while, largely because so many others weren't brave enough to own up to it (and still aren't, and good for them if they're not, its not an easy decision to make and I'm going off at a tangent, aren't I?) - so his stylistic choices came to represent something they were never intended to represent to begin with.

Or that's what some book I read said anyway. Who knows, for real? Not me, dahling.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Friday, 28 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

Personally, I've always had quite a high-pitched (I prefer to say "soft" but let's be brutal, here) voice anyway..its not an affectation. Sometimes I try and talk slightly more gruff, but it just doesn't work.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Friday, 28 October 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

But Oscar Wilde didn't have a camp/lispy/high-pitched voice!

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 28 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

Interesting... never having spoken to him, I can't answer that.. I've always seen him represented as having an affected, camp demeanour and speech, but I could well be wrong!

Hey, its not MY theory, its just the one I'm trying to convince a messageboard full of people who probably know better than me with.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Friday, 28 October 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

Can someone please write a song called "The Homosexuals of ILX"? That is all.

― J (Jay), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:05 (twenty years ago)

Warren Zevon's dead, otherwise he'd have done it

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

Momus is already on it, don't worry.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

My answer to that question is always "Yes."

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

And Oscar Wilde disliked anal sex, according to his best biographer Richard Ellmann; he preferred oral and coming between the legs.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Is the person who asked this question after a date??

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

More like plugging his new novel, eh 'Edmund'.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Why are there ten Marthas for every Arthur? (serious question)

― young, single and logged out, Friday, 28 October 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

He certainly wants to "plug" something or someone

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

It's strange that many ppl think 'top & bottom' automatically refers to anal sex.

>Why are there ten Marthas for every Arthur?

Does this refer to sexual role, or nelly factor?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

Its strange that many people think its that straightforward.. I suspect the person asking the question is not homosexual.

I find it pays to be open-minded. NOT SAYING ANY MORE THAN THAT.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

What's nelly factor?

Yeah it's not straightforward. Nonetheless, there just seems to be many, many more people out there who basically want to be the fuckee rather than the fucker. Or maybe it's just me.

― young, single and logged out, Friday, 28 October 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

>What's nelly factor?

Effeminate/masculine scale, whatever those mean.

There are leather guys into rough stuff whose bathrooms are decorated largely in Wizard of Oz memorabilia. Ah, theatuh!

>there just seems to be many, many more people out there who basically want to be the fuckee rather than the fucker.<

I'veheard this before, and my polling must be off. I know of at least three sexually active gay men over 40 who've never been fucked. I think the fuckees just market themselves better.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

I am not gay, but I like variety and the sharing of experiences in a physical relationship. Is it rare for a gay couple to both be, like, middles?

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

oh so this thread is not about mouth vs bum?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

No, that's a separate question.

In the way many married straights still favor the missionary position, I think 'versatility' is far from universal. Paging Dr Kinsey's successors!

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

I remember once being propositioned on a long lonely coastal path and, at the climax of an awkward cross-purposed sort of conversation, being asked the mystifying question "do you give or receive?" Cue my look of bafflement and the answer "umm.. a bit of both?"

I guess that was when I realised that gender wasn't the half of it.

― Nicholas Passant, Friday, 28 October 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

When you're in a long-term, monogamous relationship, you're bound to experiment and try a bit of everything. I think that's true for both straight and gay couples. My guess is that gay relationships tend not to be so monogamous, and that variety is sought outside relationships more than within. In which case, the sex itself is more likely to conform to stereotype, with some people preferring to 'give' and others 'receive' etc. Just as in the straight world, the first time you go to bed with someone the sex is more likely to be stereotypically missionary position, you're not likely to go straight to anal or sex toys or whatever you might do after months and years of being in an exclusive relationship.

― young, single and logged out, Friday, 28 October 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

I think the top/bottom is symptomatic of fetishisation of the body as a separate collection of parts rather than as an organic whole. That's fine if you're after casual sex, but if you're actually interested in the person it can be pretty unrewarding. The whole active/passive thing is gay sex observed through heterosexual eyes. The fact that many gay men still perceive it in such a manner shows how strong the socialisation and normalisation of heterosexual roles in our upbringing is..

*phew* hand me a queer theory textbook someone, I need to fan myself down.

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

As long as both men sweat and smile, it's all good.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

Philippe I, Duc d'Orléans, the younger brother of Louis XIV was not only bisexual (with a marked penchant for men) but a cross dresser, so I'm inlcined to think that various 'camp' aspects of gay culture are probably much older than Oscar or the 19th century.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

Doesn't Foucault write a lot about the creation of the homosexual in the 19th century? Certainly campness is linked to the dandy, who is not necessarily gay.

Although Wilde is now a gay icon, it's worth remembering that he was actually bisexual. The Ellmann biography reports him making enthusiastic comments to friends about his sex life with his wife.

― jz, Friday, 28 October 2005 13:31 (twenty years ago)

In response to the main question, I have only ever "topped." I imagine this to be mostly a response to me being tall, broad, and fairly masculine seeming guy -- the "top" role, for me, is not so much self-determined, but taken up in response to what potential partners want from me (which, of course, I'm happy to supply). The guys just be grabbin' they ankles when I come around.

But I don't think that's the end of it. I enjoy the power exchange, too, and I get off on being in control. Someday I'll try it from the other end, so to speak.

― anonnynonnymus, Friday, 28 October 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

>I suspect the person asking the question is not homosexual.<

Well duh, he used "homosexuals" as a noun ... so he could also be 72 years old.

>As long as both men sweat and smile, it's all good.<

Awww Alfred, that's charming. We should meet in the Friday flirting thread sometime.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

Is this about bunk beds?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

http://www.fast-rewind.com/withnail3.jpg

"are you a sponge or a stone?"

I think more gay men like to be the fuckee, because it's the biggest marked contrast to the male hetero sexual experience, which is (generally) to be the fucker.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

Somehow, differentiating myself from straight men is not a high priority whilst in the throes of lust.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

Awww Alfred, that's charming. We should meet in the Friday flirting thread sometime.

Even after all the nasty things I said about Billy Wilder?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

Like that's a dealbreaker! *pshaw*

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)

I thought the flirting had been going on for months already? ;)

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)

oh, shut up and deal. ;)

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:10 (twenty years ago)

You guys are so cute.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)

There are a lot of straight men on this thread.

Curious about the "gay voice" thing too. As David Cross put it - "not ALL gay men have this voice, but ONLY gay men have this voice"

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

That is a TERRIBLE stereotype.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

it's true nonetheless.

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

There are a lot of straight men on this thread.

There are a lot of straight men in the world.

Actually, about half of the posts on this thread are from gay men -- what do you want?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

There are a lot of straight men in the world.

And they're breeding!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:17 (twenty years ago)

Just as long as they turn out just enough queer kids to be our love slaves, it's al good!

― edward o (edwardo), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

http://www.discoverycove.com/images/celebs/roker.jpg http://academic.scranton.edu/student/KELLYM25/a623g.jpg http://www.vh1.com/shared/media/images/amg_covers/200/drf800/f877/f87776t6f67.jpg http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/drd000/d070/d07092cl5lf.jpg

― Dan (I Don't Get It) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:26 (twenty years ago)

http://eil.com/newgallery/Paul-Simon-You-Can-Call-Me-A-92137b.jpg

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:29 (twenty years ago)

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/acg7/capone.jpg

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)

al good, al the time

― tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

My typos are better than my actual posts. Al-ways.

― edward o (edwardo), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:38 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...

this thread died too soon

― gershy, Monday, 19 March 2007 04:23 (nineteen years ago)

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