345 Dead in Mecca

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This is after all the saftey procedures put in last year--genuine question, how do you make millions of people safe when they all want to be in the same small portion of a medieval village?

― anthony easton (anthony), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:44 (twenty years ago)

american football gear for everyone

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:46 (twenty years ago)

Like lemmings off a cliff...

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:49 (twenty years ago)

are there any equivalents of this for other religions/customs? it's like a Hillsborough or something except it seems to happen every year (there was a crush in Iraq about six months at some religious procession or something caused by a bombscare, with a large no. of people being crushed to death). madness.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Rome, I think, would have similar issues...

― anthony easton (anthony), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:50 (twenty years ago)

the bull chase

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:59 (twenty years ago)

moran students jumping off that bridge in oxford

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:59 (twenty years ago)

none of these cause hundreds of deaths every other year though.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:00 (twenty years ago)

but they are annual events in which people get hurt quite regularly

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:01 (twenty years ago)

So are people finding this bothersome on a personal level or on a global level? 345 people (so far. there will be more) isn't much in the global scheme of things. If it happens every year, then there's little reason to be surprised.

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:02 (twenty years ago)

i was wanting equivalents where people actually die, in large numbers. i think 345 is a big number but it's not taken as 'seriously' because the deaths are unintentional and instead down to...appalling organisation? poor funding? people's own selfishness and desperation (lots of 'jostling' to get best positions to cast stones, according to the report)?

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:06 (twenty years ago)

I actually had a horrific nightmare once about being not only an 'infidel' but being stuck in the middle of the crowd during the stoning of the devil at the jamaarat.

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:09 (twenty years ago)

...and ppl going into a religous fit and very little caring in this part of the world bcuz of western racisim. But anthony hit it right -- you're cramming 10 lbs of shit into a 5 lb bag -- nothing good is going to happen.

xpost. that's an odd but amusingly literate dream.

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:10 (twenty years ago)

funny guys you are.

The Hajj seems very much like a thing designed for when there were only a million Muslims in the whole world. Now that there are billions of them it's all a bit problematic. I wonder will people ever give up on the Hajj, or redefine it in a way that does not involve having to go to Mecca.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:13 (twenty years ago)

http://www.brascon.com/turnprotecimg/turnstile.jpg

― mestema (davidcorp), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:14 (twenty years ago)

Yr talking about a fundamental shift in an ancient religous ceremony involving a religion and a region that's taken it as polict to be as hard-line as possible. That being said, how many muslims from pakistan are among the dead or even there to begin with? How about the south pacific?

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:17 (twenty years ago)

xpost

Prediction: "People will give up on the Hajj" shortly after the Catholic Church announces that the Pope doesn't actually communicate directly with God, but rather symobically does so on behalf of Catholics around the world.

― Mitya (mitya), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:22 (twenty years ago)

I don't see why they all need to Hajj at one time of the year.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:24 (twenty years ago)

I don't know why they can't have human forms in their artwork.

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:25 (twenty years ago)

We could also rotate Christmas through different months of the year in different US states, to even out economic activity. Yeesh.

I don't find it bothersome on any level. When you get that many people together regularly people are certainly going to get hurt, and potentially killed. What gets me -- and obviously news reports give you scannable versions of events -- is how luggage falling off buses can create a situation where hundreds of people can be trampled (to death). You have to attribute some of this to the pilgrims ("blame the victims") and not just the organizers.

― Mitya (mitya), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:26 (twenty years ago)

exactly.

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:27 (twenty years ago)

The "lesser hajj" can be performed at any time of the year, but the "greater hajj" must take place during the month of Dhu al-Hijjah and is one of the five pillars of Sunni Islam. Most pilgrims will perform the "greater hajj" because of the difficulty and expense of traveling to the city of Mecca. For many pilgrims (especially ones who had difficulty travelling due to health or finances), the journey to Mecca is a once in a lifetime event.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH AW SHI'ITE (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:31 (twenty years ago)

hajj ya like me now!?

― Mestema (davidcorp), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:32 (twenty years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj#Incidents_during_the_Hajj

# On July 2, 1990, a stampede inside a pedestrian tunnel leading to the holy sites led to the deaths of 1,426 pilgrims.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:33 (twenty years ago)

the journey to Mecca is a once in a lifetime event

For 345 people this is truer than it was meant to be.

― Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:34 (twenty years ago)

*fade out*

― Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:45 (twenty years ago)

isn't mohammed buried in the middle? hard to imagine anyone outsourcing the hajj in that case

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:12 (twenty years ago)

Is he? Never heard that, but I suppose he must be buried somewhere. The big black square thing has a meteorite in it, which is taken as a sign from God.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:18 (twenty years ago)

No, Muhammed ascended into heaven from the dome of the rock in Jeruselum.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:20 (twenty years ago)

DV, most Muslims don't care about the Meteor (now viewed as a Pagan artifact) and only care that the prophet kissed it.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:23 (twenty years ago)

oh ok. maybe they could split it into many pieces and distribute it to 'hajj' strip malls around mecca?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:24 (twenty years ago)

It is already broken.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:34 (twenty years ago)

Like lemmings off a cliff...

-- Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) ([email protected]), January 12th, 2006.

a disney film crew imported them to alberta and herded them off a cliff because it made for more dramatic footage?

― andrew m. (andrewmorgan), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:07 (twenty years ago)

-- Mitya (nospa...), January 12th, 2006.

on no level is it bothersome to you that hundreds of people die in this insane fashion every year?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 13 January 2006 11:53 (twenty years ago)

If it happens every year, then there's little reason to be surprised

Well it doesn't happen every year. Supposed women aren't allowed at this "devil stoning" thang but they turn up in their droves anyway. Also, I think I'm right in saying that children under a certain age aren't allowed on the Hajj either, but they turn up in their droves too - what's wrong with Saudi Arabia, don't they have religious police over there?!?!

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 13 January 2006 11:58 (twenty years ago)

Interesting stuff on hajj crowd movements, now sadly looking a bit dated:

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Myriad/Jamarat.htm

― Hello Sunshine (Hello Sunshine), Friday, 13 January 2006 12:26 (twenty years ago)

I find it hard to have an opinion about something I know nothing about. Most of you seem to find this horrible and stuff, but who knows, for someone who believes strongly enough in something, dying for/because of it might be an honour/some righteous martyr thing/a reward from their deity? (Maybe those people will get 400 virginians in heaven because they died during a pilgrimage?)

What do actual Muslims think about this?

― StanM (StanM), Friday, 13 January 2006 12:29 (twenty years ago)

sometimes, just sometimes, I think there is something terribly wrong with some of you.

― Kiwi, Friday, 13 January 2006 12:35 (twenty years ago)

Maybe those people will get 400 virginians in heaven because they died during a pilgrimage?

It's thinking like that that effectively allows 345 deaths to be 'tolerated' in this way. People are free to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, which in this case it did. But then maybe it's 'none of our business' and some people really do regard it as 'par for the course'. Tolerance for other people's beliefs without criticism only goes so far though.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Friday, 13 January 2006 12:36 (twenty years ago)

stanm, they aren't fucking alien beings! i mean i'm not a koran scholar, but i don't reckon dying in a stampede is singled out in islam as a noble way to go.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 13 January 2006 12:40 (twenty years ago)

stanm, they aren't fucking alien beings!

indeed not, and if you calculate the risk, the chance of any particular dying on any particular Hajj are relatively low, though still high enough. I assume this is why people still go on the Hajj, coupled with it being a religious duty, and probably a genuinely great thing to do, if you aren't one of the unlucky ones.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 13 January 2006 12:51 (twenty years ago)

That shuffling round the black meteorite thing looks awesome

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Friday, 13 January 2006 12:53 (twenty years ago)

I wonder why there are no Muslims on ILX
(maybe there are? I don't think so though)

― Bidfurd__, Friday, 13 January 2006 12:57 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I wonder that too. I think part of it is that ILX is too ironic for people with strongly held beliefs on anything; this explains why there are no or not many people who are actively Christian (or if there are, they keep quiet about it).

It might also be that there are not that many Muslims on the internet generally. The less ironic other internet I hang out on is also lacking in Muslims; I think the only occasionally posting one there is a whitey woman who converted rather than an originally ethnic Muslim.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 13 January 2006 13:00 (twenty years ago)

I was only trying to imagine what could go on in religious people's heads. I didn't say that's what they think about it, I was just trying to understand the logic.

It's a bit like parents who are proud of their Iraqi casualty offspring: I don't get that whole "he died for his country/our freedom" thing either, I would expect every parent to be angry at the government who sent their son/daughter there, but not all of them are.

― StanM (StanM), Friday, 13 January 2006 13:13 (twenty years ago)

Kiwi: only sometimes?

And of course those people shouldn't have died, don't get me wrong. I was just starting to find this thread a bit one-sided, so I tried to imagine what the other side of the argument could be. Very badly, as usual. :-)

― StanM (StanM), Friday, 13 January 2006 13:21 (twenty years ago)

Stan, it wasnt really directed at you.

I dont think one has to be all sentimental (nor immune to irony) to feel some real empathy with the poor people who died .More importantly finally someone has talked to me directly, I have a friend, of sorts! ITS ALL ABOUT ME you see.

Besides I probably have pharisaical notions of what is right or wrong anyway and yeah it would be good to get a Muslim view. :)

― Kiwi, Friday, 13 January 2006 14:20 (twenty years ago)

this explains why there are no or not many people who are actively Christian (or if there are, they keep quiet about it).

I think I may be responsible for A Nairn leaving or lurking, and I don't know whether to be happy or sorry about it.

― truck-patch pixel farmer (Rock Hardy), Friday, 13 January 2006 14:26 (twenty years ago)

I am slow. I only just realised that was an anagram of Narnia.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Friday, 13 January 2006 14:32 (twenty years ago)

Officials said the crush happened after pieces of luggage spilled from moving buses in front of one of the entrances to the bridge, causing pilgrims to trip.

How did the luggage spill from the buses - was it tied loosely on the roof?

So what caused it all the other years - a different problem every time?

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Friday, 13 January 2006 14:33 (twenty years ago)

I am slow. I only just realised that was an anagram of Narnia.

i'm slower.

I don't know whether to be happy or sorry about it

be happy. be very happy.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Friday, 13 January 2006 14:34 (twenty years ago)

Well if you had Muslims on ILX who were as adamant and baffling as A Nairn, they probably wouldn't stick around long.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Friday, 13 January 2006 14:37 (twenty years ago)

this thread is full of embarassingly bigoted statements. way to go, ilx.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 January 2006 15:34 (twenty years ago)

where news sites write 'Saudi officials deny police could have avoided the Hajj stampede, now known to have killed 362 Muslims.' I would prefer it if they wrote PEOPLE instead of Muslims.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Friday, 13 January 2006 15:41 (twenty years ago)

It's said that those who die during the Hajj go direct to Paradise, which might be a factor into why these unfortunate incidents happen.

― ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!! (ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!!), Friday, 13 January 2006 15:44 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it's a causal factor, but it could be quite a comforting thought for a religious family that has lost one of their own.

― StanM (StanM), Friday, 13 January 2006 19:04 (twenty years ago)

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